Nancy Cooper, 34, of Cary, N.C. #23

[reddress58]

I know the water search packed up early Monday afternoon and moved on. When I went back to MM for another area to search he said the search had moved on to those other 2 lake area's. Did he mean water search also? IDK I was looking for another foot search to do.

That would coincide with the media saying searchers were going to the two other lakes Monday thinking NC may have decided to jog in those areas since there are paths around them. I think MM was refering to foot searches along those jogging paths.

I can't recall anyone mentioning water search crews other than on big Lake Lochmere.

 

[momto3kids]

I am surprised boats were in the water before day 1 is completed of a foot search. The lake that has an actual path around it has not even been mentioned as being searched. Big enough for boats, YES.

Back to my original thoughts...IMO, the water was priority on day one with the LE because they suspected more than missing person who just wanted to escape her marriage or twisted an ankle while jogging.

 

[CyberPro]

People drown in bathtubs too. I just can't relate this look as anything other than doing what should have been done given the circumstances.

A water search for an item is a very slow process. Especially if the visibility is not good, and this would likely be the case for any smaller body of water, such as Lake Lochmere. Pollen and other things that fall naturally tend to cloud the water until over the winter, when they settle somewhat. Very early spring is about the clearest that water like this gets.

Also, unless the bottom of the lake was covered with coarse sand, and even then, if the lake has been there for over 10 years, the bottom is covered with several inches of very soft mud, silt and probably acquatic weeds. An object discarded in water like this would sink into the muck. This means that an item search has to be done by laying out grids underwater, and performing a grid by grid search. The divers can use underwater metal detectors, but only if the object is metallic, and they will also get a lot of false alarms due to cans and other junk that folks throw in the water.

CyberPro

 

[raisincharlie]

I know the water search packed up early Monday afternoon and moved on. When I went back to MM for another area to search he said the search had moved on to those other 2 lake area's. Did he mean water search also? IDK I was looking for another foot search to do.

I have no idea Mt3K. But I am still puzzling on why they would look at these other lakes. If you look at the location of these lakes - one to the east northeast and one southeast - for Nancy to have run to either would require lots of encounters with traffic. At this point - with no confirmed sightings of Nancy in her own environ - seems to me LE had reached a conclusion of foul play and proceeded.


What does not make sense to me is a lack of searching between the points. If you look at Lake Wheeler - draw a line between the residence to the lake - it crosses very near where Nancy was recovered. I am very surprised the searches were not expanded beyond those pictured in the search maps posted here on the maps or photo thread by Mahmoo. The fact that the search areas were not expanded beyond the immediate area does indicate to me that LE had a high degree of confidence in thinking foul play had occurred. JMO.


ETA - the common denominator here seems to be Holly Springs Road if you think about it.

 

[raisincharlie]

A water search for an item is a very slow process. Especially if the visibility is not good, and this would likely be the case for any smaller body of water, such as Lake Lochmere. Pollen and other things that fall naturally tend to cloud the water until over the winter, when they settle somewhat. Very early spring is about the clearest that water like this gets.

Also, unless the bottom of the lake was covered with coarse sand, and even then, if the lake has been there for over 10 years, the bottom is covered with several inches of very soft mud, silt and probably acquatic weeds. An object discarded in water like this would sink into the muck. This means that an item search has to be done by laying out grids underwater, and performing a grid by grid search. The divers can use underwater metal detectors, but only if the object is metallic, and they will also get a lot of false alarms due to cans and other junk that folks throw in the water.

CyberPro

Then a surface search makes even less sense if they can't see anything. Perhaps using fish finder type equipment.

 

[momto3kids]

I am going on what I found today...the first part has since been replaced by the Rentz family statement...
http://cary.mync.com/site/cary/news/story/5174/cary_police_searching_...

From: "tiny dancer"
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 01:03:08 -0400
Local: Mon, Jul 14 2008 1:03 am

CARY, N.C. -
Friends, family and police have spent the entire weekend scouring Cary for a
missing woman.

Map Of Area

Nancy Cooper, 34, went out for an early-morning run Saturday, and never came
home. Since then, it's been a frantic search with police rescue divers
checking nearby lakes and dozens of volunteers covering miles of pathways.

Maybe since it had just begun on Mondays at other area's and she was found Monday night, there wasn't time for it to even get to the other media. IDK

 

[momto3kids]

I have no idea Mt3K. But I am still puzzling on why they would look at these other lakes. If you look at the location of these lakes - one to the east northeast and one southeast - for Nancy to have run to either would require lots of encounters with traffic. At this point - with no confirmed sightings of Nancy in her own environ - seems to me LE had reached a conclusion of foul play and proceeded.


What does not make sense to me is a lack of searching between the points. If you look at Lake Wheeler - draw a line between the residence to the lake - it crosses very near where Nancy was recovered. I am very surprised the searches were not expanded beyond those pictured in the search maps posted here on the maps or photo thread by Mahmoo. The fact that the search areas were not expanded beyond the immediate area does indicate to me that LE had a high degree of confidence in thinking foul play had occurred. JMO.


ETA - the common denominator here seems to be Holly Springs Road if you think about it.

I can be TOTALLY wrong, but Lake Wheeler has no jogging trails. Lake Wheeler would only need to have a water search. It is a picnic and boating area. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
The point I have been trying to make in the beginning is the lakes were searched for possible foul play IMO. The LE must have thought that from the very beginning.

 

[macd]

FWIW, IMHO, I believe the purse being in the car as late as Monday the 14th, indicates it was part of the 'staging.'

I base that on the fact the area was under alert for car break ins. NO ONE would leave their purse in their car purposely.

JMHO
fran

I just want to point out that we don't know anything about this purse other than it was a Louis Vuitton. It could have been their beach bag. It could have been Brad's laptop bag (his affidavit mentions a LV laptop case). It could have been an extra purse. We do not know if this was NC's purse.

 

[jmflu]

You know, I'm really starting to think this was premeditated to a certain point. There has been no arrest, which says to me they didn't find blood in the trunk or something that instantly screamed, "I shouldn't be here! Foul play!" So that tells me he really knew how to cover his tracks. Maybe he put her in a big black Hefty bag and then that inside another one and that into the trunk and that way no blood ever mistakenly got on the carpet. I also just drove past BC's house again yesterday and then followed Lochmere Drive to Lilly Atkins and out to Holly Springs. I didn't know from there which way to the subdivision but looking at a map today, now that I have driven near, I see just how remote that area was that she was found. Man, he didn't plan on her being found until much, much later, did he? It was just a miracle that man and his dog went walking all the way down all those dirt streets, way back to the very back of the subdivision. And to add to my suspicion of premeditation, with no lights, I'm betting BC had been down those roads before and had gone all the way back in there. Because in the dark, bumping down those roads, on and on further into nothingness, would be unfamiliar. My last point to add for premeditation is the utter lack of any sort of appearance on BC's part in any sort of memorial for NC. We have never seen him on TV appealing for help to find his wife's killer. No obituary. Not even a ribbon on his mailbox. Now, if this crime was done in the heat of passion, I would think one might regret it instantly, or not have even meant to kill, only to harm. Then we might see tears and appearances at memorials. But none of that has happened. He doesn't appear to regret it.

 

[jmflu]

I just want to point out that we don't know anything about this purse other than it was a Louis Vuitton. It could have been their beach bag. It could have been Brad's laptop bag (his affidavit mentions a LV laptop case). It could have been an extra purse. We do not know if this was NC's purse.

I've thought that too. Perhaps it was one she had just bought and hadn't used yet.

 

[raisincharlie]

I can be TOTALLY wrong, but Lake Wheeler has no jogging trails. Lake Wheeler would only need to have a water search. It is a picnic and boating area. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
The point I have been trying to make in the beginning is the lakes were searched for possible foul play IMO. The LE must have thought that from the very beginning.

Could very well be. JA was at the residence when LE arrived - we all know what she thinks and I have little doubt LE spoke with her that Saturday since she reported Nancy missing, probably Carey Clarke as well. The searches of the lakes near the home would be routine either way. By moving to the other lakes seems to be an admission that Nancy was transported away from her neighborhood - definitely foul play was in their minds by Monday.

ETA - the first time LE used the term non-random would be a much clearer indication of when they concluded that foul play was apparent.

 

[momto3kids]

You know, I'm really starting to think this was premeditated to a certain point. There has been no arrest, which says to me they didn't find blood in the trunk or something that instantly screamed, "I shouldn't be here! Foul play!" So that tells me he really knew how to cover his tracks. Maybe he put her in a big black Hefty bag and then that inside another one and that into the trunk and that way no blood ever mistakenly got on the carpet. I also just drove past BC's house again yesterday and then followed Lochmere Drive to Lilly Atkins and out to Holly Springs. I didn't know from there which way to the subdivision but looking at a map today, now that I have driven near, I see just how remote that area was that she was found. Man, he didn't plan on her being found until much, much later, did he? It was just a miracle that man and his dog went walking all the way down all those dirt streets, way back to the very back of the subdivision. And to add to my suspicion of premeditation, with no lights, I'm betting BC had been down those roads before and had gone all the way back in there. Because in the dark, bumping down those roads, on and on further into nothingness, would be unfamiliar. My last point to add for premeditation is the utter lack of any sort of appearance on BC's part in any sort of memorial for NC. We have never seen him on TV appealing for help to find his wife's killer. No obituary. Not even a ribbon on his mailbox. Now, if this crime was done in the heat of passion, I would think one might regret it instantly, or not have even meant to kill, only to harm. Then we might see tears and appearances at memorials. But none of that has happened. He doesn't appear to regret it.

I agree with most everything you have said, but there are lights back there. I drove it at 10pm one night and you can drive with no headlights. I went back to the video when the body was discovered and the lights are seen, so they were there before he dumped NC. They are the brightest street lights I have seen and happy they are not in front of my house. LOL

He has absolutely no remorse and never has. What hits me the hardest besides his mailbox, is him telling his girls about their mom just before the service and then walking away. He spent Sat. morning with them. Is this what a parent suppose to do when their children need them the most?

 

[reddress58]

You know, I'm really starting to think this was premeditated to a certain point. There has been no arrest, which says to me they didn't find blood in the trunk or something that instantly screamed, "I shouldn't be here! Foul play!" So that tells me he really knew how to cover his tracks. Maybe he put her in a big black Hefty bag and then that inside another one and that into the trunk and that way no blood ever mistakenly got on the carpet. I also just drove past BC's house again yesterday and then followed Lochmere Drive to Lilly Atkins and out to Holly Springs. I didn't know from there which way to the subdivision but looking at a map today, now that I have driven near, I see just how remote that area was that she was found. Man, he didn't plan on her being found until much, much later, did he? It was just a miracle that man and his dog went walking all the way down all those dirt streets, way back to the very back of the subdivision. And to add to my suspicion of premeditation, with no lights, I'm betting BC had been down those roads before and had gone all the way back in there. Because in the dark, bumping down those roads, on and on further into nothingness, would be unfamiliar. My last point to add for premeditation is the utter lack of any sort of appearance on BC's part in any sort of memorial for NC. We have never seen him on TV appealing for help to find his wife's killer. No obituary. Not even a ribbon on his mailbox. Now, if this crime was done in the heat of passion, I would think one might regret it instantly, or not have even meant to kill, only to harm. Then we might see tears and appearances at memorials. But none of that has happened. He doesn't appear to regret it.

jmflu, the roads back there are paved and there are street lights. Still, he could have known about the area ahead of time...looking at houses, computer search, etc.

 

[jmflu]

I agree with most everything you have said, but there are lights back there. I drove it at 10pm one night and you can drive with no headlights. I went back to the video when the body was discovered and the lights are seen, so they were there before he dumped NC. They are the brightest street lights I have seen and happy they are not in front of my house. LOL

He has absolutely no remorse and never has. What hits me the hardest besides his mailbox, is him telling his girls about their mom just before the service and then walking away. He spent Sat. morning with them. Is this what a parent suppose to do when their children need them the most?

Just testing! I see you and Reddress are keeping me straight!! That is good. I was looking at an overhead picture and I didn't see those lights. Must look pretty weird with those bright lights shining on nothing but dirt road...

 

[CyberPro]

Then a surface search makes even less sense if they can't see anything. Perhaps using fish finder type equipment.

RC,

Fish finders are based upon SONAR technology. In the case of commercial fish finders, they beam an ultrasonic frequency into the water in a cone shape to the bottom. There can be special software that helps a person determine what is a fish, but what it is really picking up is the air bladder in the fish that helps the fish hold whatever depth that it wants. This air bladder is what allows the fish to not sink to the bottom always.

Ultrasound units that people use to diagnose medical conditions work using the same technology, which is the difference in tissue density. Fluid filled organs allow the signal to pass through easily, and show up as black on the screen, while tissue of other densities shows up as a gray color or white, if it reflects a lot of the signal back.

There is a special type of fish finder type device that is based from a normal fish finder, but has special software in it. It is known as a "body-cator" and is made to help find drowning victims or perhaps homicide victims. It works from the same principal as the fish finder, using the gases that are the product of decomposition, and the fact that a weighted or trapped body will be trying to float, and so will have some degree of separation from the actual bottom of the body of water. I am not sure how well they work, but when I was in EMS we had a local rescue unit that had one with their water rescue unit.

Looking for a gun, club, shovel or anything like that would not work with a fish finder, even though there is a large difference in the density between a hard object, like a gun, and the soft (usually) bottom of the lake. This is due to the signal being diffused by the soft mud/weeds at the bottom of the water. You can see some hard objects, like stumps, rocks as solid objects, but something smaller would be hard to tell. Usually, there is a fairly wide band of noise at the bottom of the finder that signifies the bottom, and is caused by the diffusion of the signal.

CyberPro

 

[Star12]

You know, I'm really starting to think this was premeditated to a certain point. There has been no arrest, which says to me they didn't find blood in the trunk or something that instantly screamed, "I shouldn't be here! Foul play!" So that tells me he really knew how to cover his tracks. Maybe he put her in a big black Hefty bag and then that inside another one and that into the trunk and that way no blood ever mistakenly got on the carpet. I also just drove past BC's house again yesterday and then followed Lochmere Drive to Lilly Atkins and out to Holly Springs. I didn't know from there which way to the subdivision but looking at a map today, now that I have driven near, I see just how remote that area was that she was found. Man, he didn't plan on her being found until much, much later, did he? It was just a miracle that man and his dog went walking all the way down all those dirt streets, way back to the very back of the subdivision. And to add to my suspicion of premeditation, with no lights, I'm betting BC had been down those roads before and had gone all the way back in there. Because in the dark, bumping down those roads, on and on further into nothingness, would be unfamiliar. My last point to add for premeditation is the utter lack of any sort of appearance on BC's part in any sort of memorial for NC. We have never seen him on TV appealing for help to find his wife's killer. No obituary. Not even a ribbon on his mailbox. Now, if this crime was done in the heat of passion, I would think one might regret it instantly, or not have even meant to kill, only to harm. Then we might see tears and appearances at memorials. But none of that has happened. He doesn't appear to regret it.

1. That cul de sac has lights on it. Mom traveled the area well after dark and said she could see perfectly, even with her car lights off. Crime scene tape was even wrapped around the light fixture right where NC's body was found. Not dark.

2. While BC did not go to the memorial service, he did go to the service for the volunteer searchers. He did lawyer up and his attorney may have told him not to go - we don't know. He also was with the children the morning of the memorial service - the GP may have asked him to not attend. Again, we don't don't know.

3. He did appear at a presser to appeal for anyone knowing anything to alert the CPD.

4. He did have a white ribbon on his mailbox -- it is no longer there, but at one time he did have one.

5. If it were done in the heat of passion, which seems to be the consensus here, his regret, IMO, seems to be that her death did not just effect her no longer being there, but has drawn much unpleasant speculation that he abhors, the danger that he may somehow be tried for her death, the danger to his financial situation, and to his career, the reality that his children are no longer with him.

5. However, having said all that, I DO believe it was in the heat of passion, and I DO believe that once the physical violence started, his rage did not end until well after Nancy was dead.

 

[raisincharlie]

RC,

Fish finders are based upon SONAR technology. In the case of commercial fish finders, they beam an ultrasonic frequency into the water in a cone shape to the bottom. There can be special software that helps a person determine what is a fish, but what it is really picking up is the air bladder in the fish that helps the fish hold whatever depth that it wants. This air bladder is what allows the fish to not sink to the bottom always.

Ultrasound units that people use to diagnose medical conditions work using the same technology, which is the difference in tissue density. Fluid filled organs allow the signal to pass through easily, and show up as black on the screen, while tissue of other densities shows up as a gray color or white, if it reflects a lot of the signal back.

There is a special type of fish finder type device that is based from a normal fish finder, but has special software in it. It is known as a "body-cator" and is made to help find drowning victims or perhaps homicide victims. It works from the same principal as the fish finder, using the gases that are the product of decomposition, and the fact that a weighted or trapped body will be trying to float, and so will have some degree of separation from the actual bottom of the body of water. I am not sure how well they work, but when I was in EMS we had a local rescue unit that had one with their water rescue unit.

Looking for a gun, club, shovel or anything like that would not work with a fish finder, even though there is a large difference in the density between a hard object, like a gun, and the soft (usually) bottom of the lake. This is due to the signal being diffused by the soft mud/weeds at the bottom of the water. You can see some hard objects, like stumps, rocks as solid objects, but something smaller would be hard to tell. Usually, there is a fairly wide band of noise at the bottom of the finder that signifies the bottom, and is caused by the diffusion of the signal.

CyberPro

So maybe they were looking for a body - seems reasonable.

 

[momto3kids]

I just want to point out that we don't know anything about this purse other than it was a Louis Vuitton. It could have been their beach bag. It could have been Brad's laptop bag (his affidavit mentions a LV laptop case). It could have been an extra purse. We do not know if this was NC's purse.

I will have to listen again exactly how it was stated, but on the 911 call JA states NC purse was still in there. I also think she said the car.
This is how we concluded it was NC purse.

Someone correct me if I have this wrong...

 

[raisincharlie]

jmflu, the roads back there are paved and there are street lights. Still, he could have known about the area ahead of time...looking at houses, computer search, etc.

Did you ever check with Toll Brothers to verify the lights were working on the 12th of July ? From the N & O pictures of the ambulance leaving the area - there don't seem to be many street lights working - looks pitch black actually.

 

[reddress58]

Did you ever check with Toll Brothers to verify the lights were working on the 12th of July ? From the N & O pictures of the ambulance leaving the area - there don't seem to be many street lights working - looks pitch black actually.

Oops, no I didn't. I'll do so.