NC NC - Faith Hedgepeth, 19, UNC student, Chapel Hill, 7 Sept 2012 #1

[CADwrest]

CAD - I see what you're saying, but Karena-as-the-killer only makes sense as an un-premeditated act of jealousy and anger. If her collaborating with a male requires it to have been premeditated and planned, I'd say that's a good reason to throw that theory out. I'd say for there to be any viability to a Karena-did-it theory, one has to show either that (i) there is another explanation for the male DNA being on the pen and note or that (ii) Karena could have received help from a male in the hour or so after the unpremeditated killing.

I agree. And I’m not saying that I believe a carefully orchestrated KR plot to be a good explanation for the crime, just that I think it makes MORE sense than an impulsive act of rage with no preplanning at all. My issue with the KR theories I’ve seen is that they try to have it both ways: An impulsive act on KR’s part (which fits, since she comes across as a hot-blooded girl), but with her either 1) obtaining semen under false pretenses beforehand, 2) drafting someone to commit the crime for her, or 3) bringing in an unconnected male to clean up her mess after the fact. We’ve already talked about option 3, and option 1 and 2 both require significant premeditation (I don’t know about everyone else here, but I’d find it a significant challenge, phoning around my contact list at 2 or 3 AM, trying to find one of them willing to kill someone for me).

 

[youlostone]

I agree. And I’m not saying that I believe a carefully orchestrated KR plot to be a good explanation for the crime, just that I think it makes MORE sense than an impulsive act of rage with no preplanning at all. My issue with the KR theories I’ve seen is that they try to have it both ways: An impulsive act on KR’s part (which fits, since she comes across as a hot-blooded girl), but with her either 1) obtaining semen under false pretenses beforehand, 2) drafting someone to commit the crime for her, or 3) bringing in an unconnected male to clean up her mess after the fact. We’ve already talked about option 3, and option 1 and 2 both require significant premeditation (I don’t know about everyone else here, but I’d find it a significant challenge, phoning around my contact list at 2 or 3 AM, trying to find one of them willing to kill someone for me).

Really not trying to start any drama or argument, but what makes you say "hot blooded". Seems a bit strong to me.

 

[CADwrest]

Really not trying to start any drama or argument, but what makes you say "hot blooded". Seems a bit strong to me.

Just some of stuff that went on that night: Her arguing with the guy as she left the club; blowing up BE's phone at 3:45am; going to stay with a different guy 45 minutes later when that didn't work out. Those just strike me as the actions of someone who's impulsive and somewhat fiery.

But I take your point. I'm making assumptions about someone based on a single night of her life that might not have been typical of her. It's not exactly fair, and I can think of nights from my 20's I certainly wouldn't want to be judged by. But it's really all we have to go on.

 

[J.M. Bee]

Whiskers - Whether people collaborate here or in the space you have created, I think it is important to have an objective. One objective, IMO, should be to share thoughts, theories, ideas and questions with the Chapel Hill police, so as to help them. On one level I realize that this sounds a little ridiculous --- the police are professionals after all, they do this for a living and they have access to all of the info and more --- yet on another level it is important to remember that the police are faced with many cases, they are busy and they may be looking at a case the wrong way or looking in the wrong places for the culprit. This is where I think "amateurs" like all of us can be of service to the police: we can help them think of the case in a slightly different way, can ask questions they may not have asked, can propose ideas they have not considered. Ultimately, though, solving this case and getting the evidence to solve this case is on the police. But if we could help them do that, well that would be excellent.

 

[J.M. Bee]

Just some of stuff that went on that night: Her arguing with the guy as she left the club; blowing up BE's phone at 3:45am; going to stay with a different guy 45 minutes later when that didn't work out. Those just strike me as the actions of someone who's impulsive and somewhat fiery.

But I take your point. I'm making assumptions about someone based on a single night of her life that might not have been typical of her. It's not exactly fair, and I can think of nights from my 20's I certainly wouldn't want to be judged by. But it's really all we have to go on.

I think there is also a chance that "You" thought you were relying on a stereotype about Latinas.

 

[J.M. Bee]

To continue with a breakdown of possible scenarios, I now think there are four basic possible scenarios:

1. the killer is male; Karena left the apartment unlocked; Faith did not know her killer
2. the killer is male; Karena left the apartment locked; Faith let her killer in; Faith knew her killer
3. the killer is male; Karena left the apartment locked; Faith let her killer in; Faith only sort of knew her killer
4. Karena is the killer; the male DNA on Faith, the pen & the note is somehow misleading

One requires that the killer be a stalker-creeper type, and has one major problem: why would such a person leave the note that was left behind?

Two would allow the killer to be a male in her social circle, but this too has a major problem: why has this male not been identified by the forensics?

Three addresses the problem in two --- police haven't tested / questioned this male --- but raises other questions, including, why would this male show up at their apartment door at 4:30am?

Four makes a lot of sense in terms of motive and opportunity and Karena being the last person to see Faith alive, but it seems to be ruled out by the forensic evidence.

 

[Whiskers16]

Whiskers - Whether people collaborate here or in the space you have created, I think it is important to have an objective. One objective, IMO, should be to share thoughts, theories, ideas and questions with the Chapel Hill police, so as to help them. On one level I realize that this sounds a little ridiculous --- the police are professionals after all, they do this for a living and they have access to all of the info and more --- yet on another level it is important to remember that the police are faced with many cases, they are busy and they may be looking at a case the wrong way or looking in the wrong places for the culprit. This is where I think "amateurs" like all of us can be of service to the police: we can help them think of the case in a slightly different way, can ask questions they may not have asked, can propose ideas they have not considered. Ultimately, though, solving this case and getting the evidence to solve this case is on the police. But if we could help them do that, well that would be excellent.

I agree with all the points you raised. My objectives are: 1) collect reference materials in one place, including PDFs since over time links go poof, 2) compile more in-depth information about the case, potential suspects, theories, etc - more than can be contained in a post here. Anyway, it's completely optional and may or may not turn out to be helpful.

 

[J.M. Bee]

Anyone know who "redacted 11" is from the timeline at JusticeForFaith (page 52 here)? He lived with Jordan McCrary at the time & his cell phone pinged the tower near Faith & Karena's apartment at 4:15am? Probably a dead-end, regardless, as I'm sure police questioned & swabbed him, but I just wanted to know his name.

 

[J.M. Bee]

Another thought which I'm sure others have had but I'll raise again anyways: what about someone who worked at Time Out and who noticed Faith & Karena previously? Time Out delivers. What about a delivery guy? Faith didn't call for delivery that night, but what if a delivery guy used that as a pretext to knock on her door? I still don't completely get how this could lead to murder or the note that was written, but maybe it accounts for how this male not within their social circle comes to have eyes for them and know where they live? Anyways, just thinking.

 

[Whiskers16]

Anyone know who "redacted 11" is from the timeline at JusticeForFaith (page 52 here)? He lived with Jordan McCrary at the time & his cell phone pinged the tower near Faith & Karena's apartment at 4:15am? Probably a dead-end, regardless, as I'm sure police questioned & swabbed him, but I just wanted to know his name.

I believe the 4:15am pinger was JB.

 

[youlostone]

I think there is also a chance that "You" thought you were relying on a stereotype about Latinas.

Yeah, it was a little bit of that, too. But I do agree that she was arguing with that dude when they walked out of the club... Honestly, in the few times that I'd seen her around she struck me as mousey and even childlike so it just came off as strong to me. Circumstantially it does not look good for her, but I think we're all just frustrated by 1) how much CHPD probably is not telling us and 2) her reluctance (or whatever it is) to speak to the public and say what she knows. I'm definitely in the camp that she knows more than she's telling.

 

[youlostone]

Another thought which I'm sure others have had but I'll raise again anyways: what about someone who worked at Time Out and who noticed Faith & Karena previously? Time Out delivers. What about a delivery guy? Faith didn't call for delivery that night, but what if a delivery guy used that as a pretext to knock on her door? I still don't completely get how this could lead to murder or the note that was written, but maybe it accounts for how this male not within their social circle comes to have eyes for them and know where they live? Anyways, just thinking.

I agree with that, that it could have been someone in the neighborhood like a neighbor, service worker or delivery guy who had noticed one of them. That would probably be consistent with the fact that they haven't been able to match DNA off of all of the many samples they already have.

 

[CADwrest]

Yeah, it was a little bit of that, too. But I do agree that she was arguing with that dude when they walked out of the club... Honestly, in the few times that I'd seen her around she struck me as mousey and even childlike so it just came off as strong to me. Circumstantially it does not look good for her, but I think we're all just frustrated by 1) how much CHPD probably is not telling us and 2) her reluctance (or whatever it is) to speak to the public and say what she knows. I'm definitely in the camp that she knows more than she's telling.

Yeah, no- wasn’t engaging in stereotypes.

So you actually knew of her in real life, before the murder? Interesting. I’m glad to hear a different characterization of her. Most of us don’t know her except what we read about her, which at best makes her come across as a bit of a drama queen.

I’ve had thoughts about that question, “If she’s not the killer, what could she be hiding?” There are a couple of different scenarios that could come into play there:

1. She had nothing to do with the murder, but the killer is a close friend or family member that she is protecting.
2. She didn’t commit the actual murder, but provoked it in some way and knows the killer’s identity.
3. She doesn’t know who the killer is, but knows Faith was with someone when she left, and is keeping that person out of the investigation for some reason.

I don’t have time to delve into it right now, but IMO, scenario 2 is the only one I can see her maintaining silence about for over five years and through multiple intense interviews. But again, I don’t really think that’s the case.

 

[tarheelslim]

Another thought which I'm sure others have had but I'll raise again anyways: what about someone who worked at Time Out and who noticed Faith & Karena previously? Time Out delivers. What about a delivery guy? Faith didn't call for delivery that night, but what if a delivery guy used that as a pretext to knock on her door? I still don't completely get how this could lead to murder or the note that was written, but maybe it accounts for how this male not within their social circle comes to have eyes for them and know where they live? Anyways, just thinking.

I don't think Time Out delivers. If that is an option it is probably one of those third party services. In which case no Time Out employee would be driving anywhere.

 

[CADwrest]

Anyone know who "redacted 11" is from the timeline at JusticeForFaith (page 52 here)? He lived with Jordan McCrary at the time & his cell phone pinged the tower near Faith & Karena's apartment at 4:15am? Probably a dead-end, regardless, as I'm sure police questioned & swabbed him, but I just wanted to know his name.

Yes, this was JB. I know the released docs say the phone "pinged" the tower, right at the same time JM was there getting KR. If that's the case, I think the most likely explanation is that he just left his phone in JM's car. He says he was home asleep and never went over there, and he WAS apparently later cleared via swab. But LE didn't ask him about this until November, IIRC, so he might not have remembered misplacing his phone.
But I've also seen it reported that his phone made a call (sorry, can't find where right now- we need to get that archive done), which would negate the above. But I wonder if that was just a misunderstanding of what the released documents were saying, because I know that was in a news article.

 

[youlostone]

I agree that time out def wasn't delivering five years ago. And I think it was still in the old location then.

 

[youlostone]

Yeah, no- wasn’t engaging in stereotypes.

So you actually knew of her in real life, before the murder? Interesting. I’m glad to hear a different characterization of her. Most of us don’t know her except what we read about her, which at best makes her come across as a bit of a drama queen.

I’ve had thoughts about that question, “If she’s not the killer, what could she be hiding?” There are a couple of different scenarios that could come into play there:

1. She had nothing to do with the murder, but the killer is a close friend or family member that she is protecting.
2. She didn’t commit the actual murder, but provoked it in some way and knows the killer’s identity.
3. She doesn’t know who the killer is, but knows Faith was with someone when she left, and is keeping that person out of the investigation for some reason.

I don’t have time to delve into it right now, but IMO, scenario 2 is the only one I can see her maintaining silence about for over five years and through multiple intense interviews. But again, I don’t really think that’s the case.

I agree that maybe she has an inkling of suspicion that this was all intended for her or at least who might have done it. This is all just my own speculation, though. ETJ really seemed like the obvious culprit, but as far as things stand now, I guess not?It's crazy to think one would cover for someone who killed your good friend but nothing about this case makes sense as it is.

I'm praying that with this anniversary coming up there will be news but I'm skeptical at this point.

 

[Skigirl]

I agree that time out def wasn't delivering five years ago. And I think it was still in the old location then.

What was the old Time Out location? Was it on Franklin in that weird strip mall thing that's now being built into apartments? Where Elizabeth Edwards had her home decorating store?

 

[Webthrush]

What was the old Time Out location? Was it on Franklin in that weird strip mall thing that's now being built into apartments? Where Elizabeth Edwards had her home decorating store?

yes, that was the old location; it was there for decades

 

[Skigirl]

One thing that others seem to think is weirder than I do is the idea that someone might have stopped by FH and KR's apartment at 4:30 AM. I mean, it would be weird (and terrifying) to me NOW, but in college, sometimes I didn't roll in until 5 AM on a weekend night, and not because of a hook-up, just because I was dancing and socializing and flirting and what-not. I did not ever, ever go anyplace to socialize before 11 PM, and I even considered that early. I know it was a week night, but neither girl strikes me as an overly studious type, certainly not as bookish and serious as I was. Karena had just left the apartment not all that much earlier.

So, if someone knocked on the door, Faith may not have thought it was THAT weird, especially if it was someone she sort of knew. Remember these are all people who are dating and looking for relationships and/or hook-ups. They are constantly seeking out the other sex. They are constantly being sought out. They expect the people around them to seek and be sought. It's just what you do at that age -- almost as seriously as you do anything else. It is not uncommon for a college-aged woman to have a few admirers sort of orbiting, and for those admirers to be orbiting multiple women. Some men think it's cute to come by at weird hours, I know because it happened to me.

I was, for the most part, a very serious student, and was not generally amused by late-night/early-morning drop-bys unless it was someone I was super-interested in. But on at least two occasions, I let those late drop-bys into my place. I can't really believe it now that I look back on it, but I have to remind myself that no one with good intentions would drop by at weird hours now, whereas that wasn't true when I was single and in college. One of the guys I let in very late at night was not someone I even had any interest in, but I thought he was a nice guy and didn't want to be rude or make him feel rejected.

One group of people who tend to be out and wanting to party in the wee hours of the morning/night are restaurant and bar workers. Closing time, then clean up time, maybe a little hanging out with co-workers, and pretty soon it's 3 AM or later. When you work in a bar or a restaurant, it's really stressful and you're wound up when you get off work. You don't tend to just go home and fall asleep. I know because I did that sort of work for many years in high school, college, and graduate school. That's why I've wondered about various restaurants/bars Faith may have had an association with, either as an employee or as a customer.