New evidence 24 years later in a child's disappearance

[iowa gurl]

There is a new letter and a couple of pics on the Johnny Gosch site. My opinion on the photos is very mixed. I am not sure why Ms. Gosch continues to post photos of Johnny. I still maintain that I would know if it were my son. To me it appears that in all of the photos Noreen says are of Johnny he is nearly always lying the same way, his knees are up and he lays on his side. I imagine he found this the most comfortable way to lay while bound and gagged. Also, it appears as though he is wearing VERY western style clothing which would give some credence to Paul Bonacci and others from the "Franklin Coverup" who maintained Johnny was taken to Colorado and spen a number of years on a ranch there.


Man this is all so sad, I just hope for closure for Noreen

 

[4sure]

4Sure: If you choose to believe his rants, go ahead. I choose not to. His website is absurd. He sounds schizophrenic.

Your link about a government official falsifying documents for illegal immigrants hardly connotes a "COVERUP".

We were talking about CIA agents or Gunderson was, procuring children for *advertiser censored* and you attach a link about an official falsifying documents for illegal immigrants? I would harly equate the two.

Its all about the money and laundering it. Which is why Im pretty sure LM was so interested in AG.

 

[Solace]

Its all about the money and laundering it. Which is why Im pretty sure LM was so interested in AG.

4Sure: Accepting money from illegal immigrants is hardly the same as procuring children for *advertiser censored* by the CIA. Sexual crimes against children is at the top of any spectrum for the worst of the worst. Sexual crimes against children by the CIA is in no way relative to accepting money or bribes from illegal immigrants. It just is not.

 

[Eagle1]

Eagle: I think 4Sure was using the illustration to say there is all kinds of corruption going on including in the government. I have no doubt there is. But I am not going to adhere to the theories of Gunderson who is past help as far as I am concerned.

I do not believe the pictures are real; I don't even think her son is in the pictures. I do not believe her son made it to even a month after he was kidnapped. I think he is gone. He never visited her.

I have no idea what 4Sure thinks about my not agreeing. She would like to imply I am not ready to handle it. I am ready to handle this situation and the pictures, etc. etc. Just one thing, they are not real!!! And neither are Ted Gundersons idiotic beliefs.

Thanks for the apology about thinking I was being sarcastic, but it wasn't that serious to me. You're very intense. If you consider this question too personal, feel free to ignore it of course, and I'd be the one needing to apologize, which maybe I'd better do in advance. Okay? Are you a young married person with kids of your own? Just trying to understand the intense dislike or distrust for Gunderson and the mother. Have you ever known people very similar to both of them who turned out to be terribly wrong, another case? Gunderson lost me by discussing another case first, and not clearly marking the beginning of the Gosch case discussion for me, so what exactly was crazy about what I admit I didn't read?

 

[Solace]

Thanks for the apology about thinking I was being sarcastic, but it wasn't that serious to me. You're very intense. If you consider this question too personal, feel free to ignore it of course, and I'd be the one needing to apologize, which maybe I'd better do in advance. Okay? Are you a young married person with kids of your own? Just trying to understand the intense dislike or distrust for Gunderson and the mother. Have you ever known people very similar to both of them who turned out to be terribly wrong, another case? Gunderson lost me by discussing another case first, and not clearly marking the beginning of the Gosch case discussion for me, so what exactly was crazy about what I admit I didn't read?

Eagle1: I do not have intense dislike for Gunderson. I just think he is out of his mind. That is my opinion of the man, plain and simple. Has nothing to do with dislike. I do not have an intense dislike for the mother and where you got that I have no idea. Because I don't believe her, does not mean I dislike her. I have said many times the case is very sad.

Eagle1, I would like to suggest you go to Gunderson's site. If you still believe his thoughts after you see it, then so be it. I think the man is out to lunch and has no intention of returning.

Your question re have I ever known people similar to them who have turned out to be wrong is for lack of a better description somewhat ridiculous. With all due respect Eagle, I am not the only one who realizes that Ted Gunderson is not dealing with a full deck.

The story is very sad. I just don't believe the son ever came to visit his mother. Not ever. And I do not believe the pictures. If you go to her site, she says that some pictures on the internet are staged that are sold on the internet. She is aware of it and feels it is child abuse and she is right - but here she is trying to pass these pictures off as children who have been abducted. I dont belive her son is in the picture. She never saw him again is what I feel.

 

[4sure]

4Sure: Accepting money from illegal immigrants is hardly the same as procuring children for *advertiser censored* by the CIA. Sexual crimes against children is at the top of any spectrum for the worst of the worst. Sexual crimes against children by the CIA is in no way relative to accepting money or bribes from illegal immigrants. It just is not.

Are you serious? This man is accepting money from a unknown national to give false documents that allow him to sneak illegal immigrants into this country. Do you have any idea who these people are? I don't! Are they crminals? Pedophils? Organized crime members? Terrorists? Could they be sneaking in poisons? Bombs? Drugs? Could they have blackmailed this man into accepting their bribes? How?

What makes you think a CIA agent is above looking the other way while children are being tricked trafficed around the world? They may or may not be evil enough to actually be involved in the "actions" but I would believe they are as prone to blackmail and bribes as the next person.

 

[narlacat]

I seriously doubt that these photos depict true abducted children, especially the color one of the three boys. And none of them resembles Johnny Gosch, who was just shy of thirteen when he was abducted. It is almost certain that fellow believers in the conspiracy-satanic cult-pedophile theory, who have zeroed in on this tragic case and Noreen Gosch's claims about it like a laser beam, sent her some photos they turned up somewhere (and I'll also bet the massive JonBenet Ramsey confession coverage over the last month triggered this). I'll be charitable and allow that they may sincerely believe Johnny Gosch is depicted in the photos and that they are helping Noreen. But this case is too tainted now from the lunatic fringe to accept such evidence on pure face value - it demands the most ruthless skepticism. This is a truly haunting case, like all missing persons cases, but the conspirists are adding new dimensions of needless tragedy to it.

A very sad case.
I don't know if the mother's 'all there', losing a child like that is enough to send the most sane person crazy..
How awful that she has had to live so long without any closure.
I don't know if the photos are real, she seems to think they are and that it is definitely Johnny...
I ended up getting lost when I first found this case, it ended up way too wierd for me and I lost track of it...

 

[Solace]

Are you serious? This man is accepting money from a unknown national to give false documents that allow him to sneak illegal immigrants into this country. Do you have any idea who these people are? I don't! Are they crminals? Pedophils? Organized crime members? Terrorists? Could they be sneaking in poisons? Bombs? Drugs? Could they have blackmailed this man into accepting their bribes? How?

What makes you think a CIA agent is above looking the other way while children are being tricked trafficed around the world? They may or may not be evil enough to actually be involved in the "actions" but I would believe they are as prone to blackmail and bribes as the next person.

Relax 4Sure. No I do not know who these people are and it should not be happening. Gunderson does not say one or two agents involved, he says the whole agency. I disagree for the umpteenth time. Most people trying to get in here are those that are trying to make a living and cannot in their country. It is not right. Never said it was. So stop putting words in my mouth.

 

[4sure]

Relax 4Sure. No I do not know who these people are and it should not be happening. Gunderson does not say one or two agents involved, he says the whole agency. I disagree for the umpteenth time. Most people trying to get in here are those that are trying to make a living and cannot in their country. It is not right. Never said it was. So stop putting words in my mouth.

Yea thats a mistake many make. Gunderson should never imply the whole agency is ivolved. I don't believe he really means the whole agency is involved. Its like when some say the goverment was behind 911 when they really mean a certain few in the goverment.

And Im very relaxed.

 

[Eagle1]

Solace, let me try to clarify my question for you. "Let me rephrase that."

We hear someone saying over and over they disagree with Gunderson, so that it's a little like campaigning in politics, if we're to choose who to believe, we've gotta know qualifications of each candidate.

I don't need to go read him to know he's pretty famous and well-respected and that it's HIS field of expertise.

If the FBI trusts him, who am I to try to turn people against him? Someone's already explained that he probably didn't really mean the WHOLE agency. And I've said he's maybe not as good at report-writing as he must be in detective work.

Maybe that was his accidental Hasty Generalization, but our throwing out the baby with the bathwater about all of him would also be Hasty Generalization. So is attempting to diagnose all the IDI's in general.

They're just cool heads. I believe every one of them have acknowledged there are some things, which just shows there's a missing link and all the evidence isn't in that would connect the facts we know. A lot seems contradictory, so far, but experience has taught us that usually something new will come to light, no in sense stewing too much. It may be a while !

 

[Solace]

Solace, let me try to clarify my question for you. "Let me rephrase that."

We hear someone saying over and over they disagree with Gunderson, so that it's a little like campaigning in politics, if we're to choose who to believe, we've gotta know qualifications of each candidate.

I don't need to go read him to know he's pretty famous and well-respected and that it's HIS field of expertise.

If the FBI trusts him, who am I to try to turn people against him? Someone's already explained that he probably didn't really mean the WHOLE agency. And I've said he's maybe not as good at report-writing as he must be in detective work.

Maybe that was his accidental Hasty Generalization, but our throwing out the baby with the bathwater about all of him would also be Hasty Generalization. So is attempting to diagnose all the IDI's in general.

They're just cool heads. I believe every one of them have acknowledged there are some things, which just shows there's a missing link and all the evidence isn't in that would connect the facts we know. A lot seems contradictory, so far, but experience has taught us that usually something new will come to light, no in sense stewing too much. It may be a while !

Here is another rant:

In spite of the rich and famous, the club has received very little notoriety over the past century. However, in the 1980's, the club started receiving negative press attention in regards to its blantant homosexual activity and politically incorrect 'Cremation of Care' ritual in which a human is sacrificed in effigy before a 45' stone owl



C'mon. This is ridiculous. Gee, human sacrifices and blatant homosexual activity. Are you positive you want to say this man is well respected?

I don't think so.

 

[Solace]

Yea thats a mistake many make. Gunderson should never imply the whole agency is ivolved. I don't believe he really means the whole agency is involved. Its like when some say the goverment was behind 911 when they really mean a certain few in the goverment.

And Im very relaxed.

4Sure: That is quite a large mistake, don't you think? He is an extremist and most extremists are psychological problems. I DO NOT CARE if he was with the CIA. I can't even read the things he posts. It is disgusting. Seriously, the man needs medication and in a hurry.

 

[4sure]

Here is another rant:

In spite of the rich and famous, the club has received very little notoriety over the past century. However, in the 1980's, the club started receiving negative press attention in regards to its blantant homosexual activity and politically incorrect 'Cremation of Care' ritual in which a human is sacrificed in effigy before a 45' stone owl



C'mon. This is ridiculous. Gee, human sacrifices and blatant homosexual activity. Are you positive you want to say this man is well respected?

I don't think so.

Are we talking BGrove here?Perhaps you need to see the video proof from Alex Jones.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87yXzkAuBxg&mode=related&search=

 

[Solace]

Are we talking BGrove here?Perhaps you need to see the video proof from Alex Jones.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87yXzkAuBxg&mode=related&search=

Already saw it.

Look 4Sure, can I get a New York break here. Sell crazy some place else. Tune in to Gunderson if you like. I choose not to partake in it. I am done. This is absurd. The video is like something out of a bad "GLOBE" article. I am waiting for Batboy to appear in it. If you want to be fully informed read below, then you will another point of view on this place.

Cremation of Care
The Cremation of Care was devised in 1893 by a member named Joseph D. Redding, a lawyer from New York. During the ceremony, which serves as the opening to the Grove encampment, a mock human sacrifice representing "dull care" is cremated to symbolize the liberation of the participants.

Today, the ritual consists of hooded members accepting the effigy representing "dull care" from a ferryman traveling across a creek. Music and fireworks accompany the ritual, for dramatic effect. The mock human sacrifice is placed on an altar and set on fire. The ritual represents the act of embracing the revelry of Bohemian Grove while setting aside the "dull cares" of the outside world.

The ceremony takes place next to a 45-foot (15 m) high concrete owl statue. During the ceremony, audio plays through nearby speakers providing the illusion of a speaking statue. The voice of the former-newsman Walter Cronkite, a member of the Bohemian Club, is used as the voice of The Owl during the ceremony.

The ceremony involves the poling of a small boat across a lake containing an effigy of Care. Contrary to rumor, Care is not a child. Although "dead", Care has a speaking part and a deep voice. As suggested by the title, Care is eventually burned under the Owl statue towards the end of ceremony. This cremation symbolizes that within the Bohemian Grove members leave the care of the outside world. Contrary to rumor, no parts of the script contain reference to prisoners of the Druids representing enemy tribes such as the Gauls and Celts.

G.W. Domhoff, a sociologist, was able to obtain an unusual amount of access to the Bohemian Club's records and membership and was able to thoroughly research the group because of this. He was able to detail the Cremation of Care ceremony, along with the High and Low Jinx and other ceremonies and plays of the Club.

The ceremony is meant to represent the destruction or burning of worldly concern. Alex Jones infiltrated the Bohemian Grove in 2000 and filmed the final portion of the ceremony for his film Dark Secrets: Inside Bohemian Grove. The grove and Jones' antics were also covered by Jon Ronson in Channel 4's four-part documentary, Secret Rulers of the World.



[edit] Rumors, Protests and Controversies

With the combination of secrecy, power, and an elite bias, the Bohemian Grove has been targeted annually for years. Specifically, the Bohemian Grove Action Network organizes protests and has aided journalists who wish to penetrate the secrecy surrounding the encampment. Over the years, individuals have infiltrated the Grove then later published video and claimed accounts of the activities at Bohemian Grove.

On July 15, 2000, Austin, Texas-based journalist and filmmaker Alex Jones and his cameraman, Mike Hanson, became the first people to successfully infiltrate the Grove and make it out with documented evidence. With hidden cameras, Jones and Hanson were able to film the Cremation of Care ritual. The footage was the centerpiece of Jones' documentary, Dark Secrets: Inside Bohemian Grove. Jones states that a large number of men were in attendance during an "ancient Canaanite, Luciferian, Babylon mystery religion ceremony" involving a 45-foot statue of an owl which he named Moloch.

A fellow British journalist, Jon Ronson of Channel 4, documented his view of the ritual in his book, Them: Adventures With Extremists. Ronson's interpretation of the ritual was more sanguine; he felt it was a startlingly immature and weird way for world leaders to behave on their summer vacation, but did not see evidence of covert Satanism.

In the summer of 2005, a Grove employee named "Kyle" clandestinely shot more revealing footage and sent it to Alex Jones, who made it the centerpiece of a sequel, The Order of Death, which was released in 2005. This new footage reveals the Owl statue is hollow with a stone exterior. The Grove's public address system is controlled from within the statue, which is also apparently used as a storage area. Various effigies of Care were also found here. "Kyle" was also able to obtain two brochures about the festivities and a membership list.

Actor/writer Harry Shearer (This is Spinal Tap, Saturday Night Live), who has attended at least one Bohemian Club event, wrote and directed The Teddy Bears' Picnic, a parody of the Bohemian Grove conspiracy.

 

[iowa gurl]

Geeze guys. Isnt this really all about what happened to Johnny and "supporting the cause" So Ted is a radical and Patricia Johnson Holm is a nut job. My support is of Noreen Gosch and we are all just small players. Maybe I'm the nut job but I continue to maintain that ALL of this, and I've done a huge amout of reading; must have some validity and some credence considering all of the common players. Because Paul Bonacci is a heroine addict, he is completely and totally discounted by the whole world. I am a drug addict, clean for 17 years and am well respected in my profession I am a responcible productive member of society. People do change and drug addicts are capable of telling the truth. Mr Bonacci won his lawsuit by default, what more could he possibly be grasping for other than the truth and trying to help bring this story to light.

 

[cami]

Yea,it all sounds too far-fetched ! Wayyy to far out there to be real.

Gunderson is a kook. I completely agree with Solace. His work on the Macdonald case is just shameful. He coerced a mentally-ill, drug addicted woman to erronously confess to the MacDonald murders with promises of monies from movie roles and book proceeds.

Gunderson is a notorious liar and con artist.

He paid Helena for her information. He didn't give her what he originaly promised her, so she complained to the FBI. She mistakenly thought he was still with them.

He was fired from the MacDonald case and kept working on his own. He was also removed from the Former Special Agent's Society, the retired FBI agent's group.

I too do not believe that Gosch is alive or that he ever visited his mother. I think she is grasping at straws she wants to much to believe her son has not been murdered. Gunderson should be brought up on charges...I don't know what for, LOl but he should. He's extorting money from these poor souls.

Check out this link on Gunderson

An excerpt

"In the early 1980s, as Gunderson publicized his theories about Satanic cults, he began making bizarre claims to the media. One was that Satanists and the FBI were out to harm him. He once told the LA Times that someone had thrown a crowbar at him as he drove on the freeway. Another time, he said, he was sunbathing in his yard and awoke to find a satanic poem left at his side."

Gunderson is a kook..

 

[cami]

I just don't believe very much she has to say. I do believe in the kidnapping, but after that he never came to see her. This is not South Korea. I just don't believe her or Gunderson. I think the pictures are fake also.

I'm afraid I don't see Johnny's alleged birthmark in that photo do you?

 

[Solace]

I'm afraid I don't see Johnny's alleged birthmark in that photo do you?

It is not him Cami and the other pictures are most likely staged. I feel sorry for the women, who would not. But I don't think he was alive to visit her.

 

[cami]

It is not him Cami and the other pictures are most likely staged. I feel sorry for the women, who would not. But I don't think he was alive to visit her.

That's what I was aiming for. I don't believe it's him either. That Gunderson should be shot for what he is doing to these mothers.

 

[Solace]

An excerpt

"In the early 1980s, as Gunderson publicized his theories about Satanic cults, he began making bizarre claims to the media. One was that Satanists and the FBI were out to harm him. He once told the LA Times that someone had thrown a crowbar at him as he drove on the freeway. Another time, he said, he was sunbathing in his yard and awoke to find a satanic poem left at his side."

Gunderson is a kook..[/QUOTE]
I did not know he had a birthmark. What kind did he have Cami. Interesting that is not there either.

The mother says she found a doll outside her house with a bullet hole in it. Sound familiar. None of this has ever happened. None of it.