Found Deceased NH - Celina Cass, 11, Stewartstown, 25 July 2011 #10 *Arrest*

[Chris_Texas]

The preliminary autopsy didn't give them all of the answers they need. CC's autopsy is not complete yet. A autopsy is never complete until all pending test results are offical.
I feel Ms. Young is making certain she has a rock solid case. Maybe when we least expect it, the ball will start rolling.
Celina deserves justice.

Hopefully you are correct!

 

[Chris_Texas]

BBM

Please reserve judgment for the time being and give AAG Jane Young some more time here.....

Did you follow the Krista Dittmeyer case on WS? If not, you may want to check out those threads if you have a little time.

Thank you for sharing.

Fortunately my faith or lack has no bearing on the professionals working to solve this case. I have every confidence that they are doing their best.

 

[Kiln Wood]

I did. Not here at WS but at IS. I don't recall JY posting a reward for information after her body was found. Did she? I may have missed it.

In that case, there was a lot more evidence of some drug deal gone bad. Heck, even some posters figured it out. Sorry I don't see the similarities at all.

~n/t~ and anyone else whom I may have inadvertently confused, I was posting a reply to Chris's post No. 262, but being the ditz I am sometimes, I forgot to click the "quote" icon! SORRY.....

 

[Chris_Texas]

The preliminary autopsy didn't give them all of the answers they need. CC's autopsy is not complete yet. A autopsy is never complete until all pending test results are offical.

I am sure that this is technically correct. Until the final report is issued the autopsy is not complete. That does not mean, however, that it is not essentially complete. The question becomes: how incomplete is it?

A student, turning a reporrt but forgetting to include his bibliography, could properly be said to have failed to complete his assignment. None the less, this is not quite the same as turning in a "report" consisting of blank pieces of paper.

I feel Ms. Young is making certain she has a rock solid case. Maybe when we least expect it, the ball will start rolling.
Celina deserves justice.

I hope you are correct! As it happens, that "least expecting it" time is pretty much now.

Also, to be crystal clear: whether or not charges are ever filed in this case has absolutely no bearing on my opinion as to the professionalism of everyone involved or their desire to solve this case.

 

[Kiln Wood]

There is also this new article:

http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/4cac12cd42a5424a8b86e3a77b518fd1/NH--Missing-Girl-NH/



Jane Young saying she does not expect new developments is just standard, it doesn't mean she has lost hope.
It means "I don't expect anything new until it's time to tell you something."

I DO believe "they haven't been able to follow a potential lead in finding out exactly what happened to her...."

I think that may very well be referring to being unable to question WN because he is hospitalized.
I think they will want to do that if at all possible before filing charges against anyone.
Actually, Wendell's name is even in the URL of the article. :waitasec:

ibtimes.com/articles/199005/20110817/celina-cass-murder-mystery-new-hampshire-investigators-toxicology-report-evidence-jane-young-wendell.htm#disqus_thread

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/199...evidence-jane-young-wendell.htm#disqus_thread

"The suspicious death of the 12-year-old New Hampshire girl Celina Cass remains a mystery to the investigators as they haven't been able to follow a potential lead in finding out what exactly happened to her on the night she went missing.

Jane Young, lead prosecutor, appeared to have lost hopes. She had said on Thursday that she did not expect any new developments in the Celina Cass case in the immediate future."

BBM

I could not agree with you more!

Purely speculation on my part (and mod please delete if inappropriate), but almost everyone who posts on the various WS threads I read and follow has at least one brilliant thought to contribute at one time or another, so I want to toss out a question here to see what anyone believes may be the answer to this question:

How much would the reward need to be in the CC case to "loosen lips" in an effort to gain viable information?

This is an academic question I've asked myself repeatedly in reference to the CC case; I also asked myself the same question in reference to the disappearances of Maura Murray (another NH case for those who may not be familiar), Ray Gricar, the Jamison Family, Jacque Rawson Waller, Lauren Spierer, and Robyn Gardner. To the best of my knowledge, none of them has ever been heard from after the date of their respective disappearances and they have never been found, safe or otherwise.

Thank you for your consideration.

 

[joypath]

Originally Posted by k4kathy
The preliminary autopsy didn't give them all of the answers they need. CC's autopsy is not complete yet. A autopsy is never complete until all pending test results are offical.

I am sure that this is technically correct. Until the final report is issued the autopsy is not complete. That does not mean, however, that it is not essentially complete. The question becomes: how incomplete is it?

A student, turning a reporrt but forgetting to include his bibliography, could properly be said to have failed to complete his assignment. None the less, this is not quite the same as turning in a "report" consisting of blank pieces of paper.

I hope you are correct! As it happens, that "least expecting it" time is pretty much now.

Also, to be crystal clear: whether or not charges are ever filed in this case has absolutely no bearing on my opinion as to the professionalism of everyone involved or their desire to solve this case.

:twocents: BBM/U The final report of the autopsy is considered incomplete upto and until the pathologist dates and signs off on the document report. YES, that can include the MOD as undetermined on line 37 of the standard CDC death certificate. HOWEVER, a MOD can be changed when'/if other verifiable scientific data is forthcoming and satisfies the certifying pathologist.:rocker:

Her body was released to the family for cremation, that fact alone suggests to me from my experience that the ME/forensic pathologist in charge has a handle on this case.

 

[joypath]

This article has a little more to it as to condition her body would be in for an autopsy.

NH town endures 'creepy' wait after girl's death


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_MISSING_GIRL_NH?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

:twocents: This article is rather good as it attempts to "ground" folks in some reality! What Wayne was trying to present is a small point that the typical bruising that one might associate with an abduction or even superficial slapping MIGHT be obliterated by the epithelial (skin) condition as either "slippage" or localized deterioration.
"Any subtle skin evidence is gone," said Dr. H. Wayne Carver II, Connecticut's chief medical examiner, who isn't involved in the investigation. "The outer layer of the skin is where you interact with the rest of the world, where we read the interactions. It's gone."
Unfortunately, that also includes "supergluing" for skin to skin fingerprints!
On a "positive note", manual or ligature strangulation frequently leaves visible muscle trauma that withstands H2O.

For what it's worth, H. Wayne Carver II, M.D., is one HECK of a forensic pathologist; it would be wonderful for Ct. to provide courtroom cameras especially for the next Cheshire triple murder trial this fall!....oh yeah, IMHO!

 

[JeannieC]

People like us, who are (for whatever reason) interested in crime and what not, seem to focus on the minutiae of a case. We debate this or that clue, scraps of evidence, single words, odd looks, DNA and now even fragments of DNA, and we try to make sense of all these micro bits of data. Knowing peoples love of mysteries and puzzles, the media and fiction plays this up. Sherlock Holmes used his crime fighting powers of observation and logic to solve impossible mysteries. CSI programs create the illusion that modern forensic scientists fight crime and crack cases in their laboratories better than the cops on the beat. Following "Silence of the Lambs," Hollywood and the major book publishers unleashed a tsunami of crime fiction starring heroic women psycological profilers cracking cases (and glass ceilings) using nothing more than their keen intuition and psychological savy.

There is nothing wrong with this of course -- it's human nature.

But I can say (from experience in the case of this assertion) that real crimes are generally pretty simple. And further, that these micro scraps we discuss are nothing more than official fictions. By this I mean: people report things, they describe events, and those events enter the official record and are debated. However, in the real world even events so horrific and shocking that you know they will stay in your mind forever, are usually remembered with a whole lot less detail then the reports suggest -- even when those reports are written mere minutes after the event by people trained in the art of paying attention and used to traumatic incidents.

People usually forget or fail to notice all kinds of things. They don't know the exact time, or how long; they don't know exactly who said what; they often do not even know who it was that was standing two feet away. But every one of those details are eventually filled into the reports, and they become the official fiction I mentioned above.

The one thing people do know is WHAT HAPPENED. They know the important big picture.

In law enforcement this is certainly the case. Unlike in the movies, in real life the evidence is usually right there -- and you probably don't even need to be Sherlock Holmes or a CSI guy to see it. The killer is usually the guy standing there covered with blood trying to hide his chainsaw, or the ex-boyfriend with the restraining order, no alibi, and the victims blood in his car. And when it's not, well, you have problems.

That's where the 40% of so of unsolved murders come from -- the cases where there was no trail of blood, no ex-boyfriend, no witnesses. Even when the police are pretty sure they know who did it, they don't have the proof, and unlike the movies the CSI stuff works a whole lot better at confirming suspicions and winning cases than discovering who did it in the first place.

I had hoped that in this case the police had something solid. It appears now that they probably do not.

DISCLAIMER: The above is my OPINION only. Unless stated otherwise, I neither claim nor imply any inside knowlege or expert opinion about any subject I happen to be discussing. The reader assumes full responsibility for any conclusions my writing might have led them to reach. Do not read while operating heavy machinery.

Very well stated. I agree. We're not at the movies here. I don't know if the police have any evidence, a suspect, or not. I hope they do but like other cases, they might not be able to prove what they know in their gut to be the truth.

 

[bstnh1]

BBM

I could not agree with you more!

Purely speculation on my part (and mod please delete if inappropriate), but almost everyone who posts on the various WS threads I read and follow has at least one brilliant thought to contribute at one time or another, so I want to toss out a question here to see what anyone believes may be the answer to this question:

How much would the reward need to be in the CC case to "loosen lips" in an effort to gain viable information?

This is an academic question I've asked myself repeatedly in reference to the CC case; I also asked myself the same question in reference to the disappearances of Maura Murray (another NH case for those who may not be familiar), Ray Gricar, the Jamison Family, Jacque Rawson Waller, Lauren Spierer, and Robyn Gardner. To the best of my knowledge, none of them has ever been heard from after the date of their respective disappearances and they have never been found, safe or otherwise.

Thank you for your consideration.

My guess is that the reward would have to be a minimum of 100k to get anyone in the town to give LE information that would lead to an arrest. This is a small, relatively poor, rural town where everyone knows everyone and the whole town functions as one big family. The reward would have to be big enough to allow the informant to move far from the town and have enough left to enjoy some extras that he or she would not otherwise be able to afford.

 

[Chris_Texas]

My guess is that the reward would have to be a minimum of 100k to get anyone in the town to give LE information that would lead to an arrest. This is a small, relatively poor, rural town where everyone knows everyone and the whole town functions as one big family. The reward would have to be big enough to allow the informant to move far from the town and have enough left to enjoy some extras that he or she would not otherwise be able to afford.

Respectfully, I could not disagree more. This is 100% opinion, but I think if anyone knew anything they would not need a reward to talk to the police. Again, totally my opinion.

Unless you are talking about a conspiracy of some kind, with more than one person involved in crimes against this girl (in which case no reward would be enough), I think that even a "good buddy" would talk to police if he believed his friend murdered a little girl. And further, the idea that such an informant would face condemnation from regular sane people is a bit hard for me to believe. To accept this, you would need to also accept that the average person, or even some sizeable minority, ranks "snitches" lower than child killers. I would suggest that even the criminal element (and every town, no matter how wonderful, has a bit of this) of crack heads and thieves, probably thinks whoever did this is human garbage.

But I could be wrong.

As cynical as this sounds, I believe that the reward is their way of appearing to be "doing something." It seems more like desperation than strategy. But that's just my opinion.

 

[cluciano63]

I would hope people with info about her home situation, possible threats or danger, etc. would have come forward already. So who does that leave, if so? Just people with knowledge of the crime, as a rule.

Rewards have solved very few crimes, as far as I know.

 

[JeannieC]

Its still a new investigation so I'm not giving up on a resolution to her death. Guilt could surface at any time.

 

[Dr. Know?]

:twocents: This article is rather good as it attempts to "ground" folks in some reality! What Wayne was trying to present is a small point that the typical bruising that one might associate with an abduction or even superficial slapping MIGHT be obliterated by the epithelial (skin) condition as either "slippage" or localized deterioration.
"Any subtle skin evidence is gone," said Dr. H. Wayne Carver II, Connecticut's chief medical examiner, who isn't involved in the investigation. "The outer layer of the skin is where you interact with the rest of the world, where we read the interactions. It's gone."
Unfortunately, that also includes "supergluing" for skin to skin fingerprints!
On a "positive note", manual or ligature strangulation frequently leaves visible muscle trauma that withstands H2O.

For what it's worth, H. Wayne Carver II, M.D., is one HECK of a forensic pathologist; it would be wonderful for Ct. to provide courtroom cameras especially for the next Cheshire triple murder trial this fall!....oh yeah, IMHO!

I just found last week a site/forum with some of the most informational facts about underwater recovery. It's the actual dive teams, their training, their equipment, their recommendations on methods for recovering a body underwater. They are SAR from many states with knowledge about the currents, depth, problems, a body's condition and what methods they use in preserving the body and the evidence etc. It's on Firehouse. com. You might have to search for it. It has many areas of expertise in rescues and recoveries of all types. Big thanks to SAR!! Amazing job they do.

I'll check out this H. Wayne Carver II, M.D. now. thx

 

[Dr. Know?]

The thing throwing me is the new reward amount tba. I guess someone wanting to add to it, they wouldn't turn down if they aren't ready to charge someone and maybe there's some more test to come back. Someone was saying here who knows about DNA tests (sorry please speak up again) that some test take two weeks to prepare then they are sent to be tested. I have no idea what test those are though. So, with WN not being possibly in a stable condition to question or charge at the moment, and test still out there, I'm sticking to my first perp still. (I never pick the perp usually until all facts come back, I'm wishy washy that way)

It's just all the subtle hints in news releases that make me lean that way still. Maybe they are trying to throw the perp with this news. Give them some relief? Just guessing.

 

[MarthaM]

This is definitely not good news. You do not offer a reward for information if you have enough for an arrest and conviction. From what was said in the article, it sounds to me like they don't even have enough info and evidence to identify a suspect. It'll be interesting to see if the AG gives a status update on the case or just mentions the reward.

I'm curious to see what the AG has to say, too. And I take it this is the Attorney General? The head guy?

I wonder if they did get back some test results and didn't see what they expected to see?

Regardless, I can't imagine that they'd be announcing or need a bigger reward if they had a strong case (or even any case at all) against anyone in particular. Interesting.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Respectfully, I could not disagree more. This is 100% opinion, but I think if anyone knew anything they would not need a reward to talk to the police. Again, totally my opinion.

Unless you are talking about a conspiracy of some kind, with more than one person involved in crimes against this girl (in which case no reward would be enough), I think that even a "good buddy" would talk to police if he believed his friend murdered a little girl. And further, the idea that such an informant would face condemnation from regular sane people is a bit hard for me to believe. To accept this, you would need to also accept that the average person, or even some sizeable minority, ranks "snitches" lower than child killers. I would suggest that even the criminal element (and every town, no matter how wonderful, has a bit of this) of crack heads and thieves, probably thinks whoever did this is human garbage.

But I could be wrong.

As cynical as this sounds, I believe that the reward is their way of appearing to be "doing something." It seems more like desperation than strategy. But that's just my opinion.

Boy, you should follow Haleigh Cummings case, it's just down right no info or talk, just many many rumors for 2 1/2 years other than the public documents. Thanks for your posts.

 

[MsFacetious]

My optimism about almost everything and everyone has vanished.

I think it fell in the toilet with the cat, then got flushed and is down there in the sewer somewhere. (Cat jumped back out... all 3 times, unscathed.)

However, I still have faith in Jane Young. I still believe she will solve this.

I can barely string together a coherent sentence so I don't have it in me to figure out why she is issuing a reward.
I do agree with her, this doesn't mean it's the end of the road. I don't see this becoming a Haleigh or Haley or Kyron or Kiplyn. :seeya:

Oh I hope that was readable and coherent. Now I go to :bedtime:

 

[JeannieC]

I think they have a pretty good idea who, what, when, and where but not enough actual evidence to prove it. The reward it intended to get the right people to turn on each other.

That is just my opinion.

 

[~n/t~]

My guess is LE is missing a key piece of physical evidence that they know someone has. I don't think the reward offered would be for an eye witnesses. It could help with the investigation but it's something more concrete than someone coming forward to say I saw so and so carrying Celina in a blanket.

My:twocents:

 

[SurfieTX]

WMUR-TV
It's Thursday FBers. Coming up on the show: Ray is covering the Celina Cass story- a press conference is expected today.

http://www.facebook.com/wmur9

ETA: The Attorney General's Office has scheduled a press conference for 10 a.m.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2011/08/18/reward_planned_in_11_year_old_nh_girls_death/