Found Deceased NH - Celina Cass, 11, Stewartstown, 25 July 2011 #11 *Arrest*

[k4kathy]

Would toxicology reports include any substance that was found on or inside the body? For example, skin cream/lotion residue, etc.?
JMO, I'm guessing the "murder weapon" was a pair of hands... nothing more, unless something was stuffed in her mouth that might have blocked her airway.
CC ingesting something orally, that would have taken some time to take effect. And like JoeFriday mentioned, it is very unlikely this child would have allowed someone to inject or force her to ingest something without a struggle, which would probably cause noise.
I doubt the body was mutilated ( except for what might have resulted if there was a sexual assault ), I would suspect that her LE discouraged CC's parent's from viewing her body because of the conditon it was in from being in the water. Besides skin slippage, I would imagine the face would be very distorted.
No doubt, LE most likely asked LN to view the blanket CC was wrapped in and and tell them whether it came from their home or not.

 

[~n/t~]

This portion of the article has to do with the ME not detecting the COD as being poisoning during autopsy. Since the MOD has been ruled "Homicide" in Celina's case and the COD is being withheld for now, I don't think that applies here.

JMO

Yes it does. The entire article/study refers to homicidal poisoning. Why do you think this wasn't planned? As far as I know there was no indication it wasn't premeditated. The suspect could've poisoned her at 9 pm and she would be dead by the AM. Also, IIRC, stepdad was the one who found her "missing". Mom was at work. She didn't see Celina in the morning.

If the stepdad suffers from schizophrenia, there is a good possiblity he could have poisoned her.

 

[Joe Friday]

Yes it does. The entire article/study refers to homicidal poisoning. Why do you think this wasn't planned? As far as I know there was no indication it wasn't premeditated. The suspect could've poisoned her at 9 pm and she would be dead by the AM. Also, IIRC, stepdad was the one who found her "missing". Mom was at work. She didn't see Celina in the morning.

If the stepdad suffers from schizophrenia, there is a good possiblity he could have poisoned her.

I'm not sure if you're asking me why I think the whole case in general was not planned or if it was poisoning that killed Celina, why it wasn't planned.



A question for you also. What indication was there (that has been released to the public) that Celina's death was premeditated regardless of whether she was poisoned or not?

 

[bstnh1]

Yes there have been many cases of people knowingly or willingly taking drugs, overdosing and dying, but those cases are classified as an accidental death, not homicide.

Since Celina's case has been ruled a homicide I think we can rule out that Celina was "willingly" taking drugs with someone at the time of her death and then the person disposed of her body in a panic when she died.

Supplying or distributing drugs to someone that willingly takes the drugs results in their death is a crime, but it is not murder or homicide. So since Celina's COD is homicide someone would have to be charged with murder or manslaughter.

Now if someone forcefully injected Celina with drugs then that would be considered a homicide, but since no one seems to be talking I don't think that is the case or we would have seen an arrest by know. In other words how would the ME be able to determine if Celina was given drugs against her will to know that this was a homicide.

If Celina had some kind of poison in her system than that would tend to lead to homicide, but killing someone with poison takes time and thought. It is not just a spur of the moment thing you decide to do at 9 PM. Trying to inject someone would likely create a struggle and the others in the house would have been alerted to something going on. You don't just come at someone with a needle to inject them with a poison (or a drug for that matter) and they don't scream or try and get away. Forcing someone to drink a poison like drain cleaner in a lethal dose would likely have the person running around the house for some time screaming in pain before they died. That would surly wake someone up in the house.

I'm sure their are drugs or poisons that someone could be given that would cause a death unsuspecting to the victim, but again that would take a lot of thought and planning. Something I don't think this case had. If someone took the time to plan on how to kill Celina with a poison or drug unbeknownst to her, they wouldn't have wrapped her in a "blue" blanket and dumped her in the river were she would likely be found. They would have planned a spot where she was likely never to be found.

JMO


Here is a recent case of two people being charged with supplying (distribution) drugs to someone that resulted in their death. Note that neither person was charged with murder. The lady in the case was even the one that injected the drug into the man that died. How did LE know that? Because one of them talked. Ironically she was the one that was acquitted of the crime, likely because she wasn't the one that actually purchased the drugs.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_f78f04c2-d027-11e0-9386-001a4bcf6878.html

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...0b3-11e0-a022-0019bb30f31a.html#ixzz1YWHXbqUy

There are plenty of drug induced deaths where the person supplying the drugs, most often heroin, has been charged with murder. Simply Google "supplying drugs results in murder charge". And to be charged with murder, there has to be a homicide.

 

[Joe Friday]

There are plenty of drug induced deaths where the person supplying the drugs, most often heroin, has been charged with murder. Simply Google "supplying drugs results in murder charge". And to be charged with murder, there has to be a homicide.

Any of those cases you found in your Google search result in a conviction?

 

[deelytful1]

Question that just popped into my head:
When a woman is in the very early stages of a pregnancy, would an autopsy show this or would one have to wait for toxicology (blood) tests?
TIA

ETA: Just curious and musing...

 

[deelytful1]

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/alcohol-abuse/features/the-truth-about-toxicology-tests

Interesting, yet easy to understand article about what toxicology tests are and how they're performed...most importantly WHY they take so long!!!

 

[BeanE]

So what COD would be so invisible during an autopsy that only until after the TOX reports were back could the the MOD be established as a homicide? Any have a clue?

I'm thinkin' suffocation. Possibly drowning. Trying to remember from another case I followed, but my memory is malfunctioning due to Stephen Powell arrest overload today.

Has anyone given joypath the new info and asked her if she has time to pop by the thread and share her opinions? This is right up her alley.

 

[deelytful1]

What if it was GHB? The date rape drug? Perhaps they found she was sexually assaulted, (perhaps found with no clothes) & they found an excess of GHB (roofies) in her system?
The other evidence might be leads that she DID have an online b-friend OR a local b-friend

I've followed this case from the beginning and was waiting for the final results and to now have NO final results yet is nerve racking....
Sigh...

 

[UdbCrzy2]

It's possible that this Prosecutor could seal the autopsy results until after trial. Sometimes they want to protect the case and not reveal everything about the crime until trial.

She must have some reason not to release the results. If it were poisoning or (fill in the blank), they will be wanting to interview witnesses without tainting the well.

I do remember from the press conference when they discovered her body that she said it was a homicide. So, to me there must have been some evidence of that, whatever 'that' would have been is what keeps me guessing.

 

[SondraK]

If she was found wrapped in a blanket, and that blanket was secured in any way, or she was missing clothing, that would point to homicide, IMO. It is also important on autopsy to find if there was water in her lungs, or not, to prove she was deceased when she was placed in the water. I think they have a lot of answers that they are not sharing with us. Patience........An arrest is coming.

Rest in peace , sweet girl.

 

[deelytful1]

If she was found wrapped in a blanket, and that blanket was secured in any way, or she was missing clothing, that would point to homicide, IMO. It is also important on autopsy to find if there was water in her lungs, or not, to prove she was deceased when she was placed in the water. I think they have a lot of answers that they are not sharing with us. Patience........An arrest is coming.

Rest in peace , sweet girl.

I agree. I was wondering if she had been bound in any way and now I do recall that the AAG kept saying "when she was "put" in the water" so yes, I'm sure they knew she was gone before she went into the river.
I hope an arrest is imminent!

 

[Joe Friday]

What if it was GHB? The date rape drug? Perhaps they found she was sexually assaulted, (perhaps found with no clothes) & they found an excess of GHB (roofies) in her system?
The other evidence might be leads that she DID have an online b-friend OR a local b-friend

I've followed this case from the beginning and was waiting for the final results and to now have NO final results yet is nerve racking....
Sigh...

BBM

I think you might be on to something. That would explain a lot of thing in this case.

Say someone gives Celina a drug like GHB and she overdosed and died as a result. Obviously the MOD and COD would be invisible during the autopsy and only known after the TOX reports were completed. The MOD would likely be ruled a homicide given the type of drug and what it is used for and the fact that Celina was only 11 years old with no other known drug history. A drug like this could have been administered without Celina being aware of it, in a drink offered to her by the perp hoping to take advantage of her while she is incoherent. Thus no struggle or noise to alert the other occupants of the house. The only problem, Celina dies and now the perp is left with a dead body and what to do. So the perp hides her body hoping to save them self from being caught by wrapping her in a blanket, removing her from the house and dumping her body in the river hoping she wouldn't be found.

When her body is found the death looks suspicious because her body has been wrapped in the blanket but there is no visual sign of how she died. The ME during the autopsy still cannot determine how she died and needs to wait for the TOX results to come back to determine exactly what happened. Once the TOX report is review and GHB or similar drug is found the MOD is classified as a homicide.

JMO

 

[pdxmama]

Question that just popped into my head:
When a woman is in the very early stages of a pregnancy, would an autopsy show this or would one have to wait for toxicology (blood) tests?
TIA

ETA: Just curious and musing...

I'm not a doctor, just stating my opinion as someone who knows a bit about being pregnant. I would think that during an autopsy they would be able see the uterine changes that occur when someone is pregnant as even in early pregnancy there is a definitely thickening of the walls of the uterus.

These changes would probably be noticeable long before you could see the fetus which I would guess would be around 4 weeks at the earliest. Like I said though, I don't have a medical background and would love to hear this question answered by someone who does (even if it means I am proven wrong )

 

[skier]

BBM

I think you might be on to something. That would explain a lot of thing in this case.

Say someone gives Celina a drug like GHB and she overdosed and died as a result. Obviously the MOD and COD would be invisible during the autopsy and only known after the TOX reports were completed. The MOD would likely be ruled a homicide given the type of drug and what it is used for and the fact that Celina was only 11 years old with no other known drug history. A drug like this could have been administered without Celina being aware of it, in a drink offered to her by the perp hoping to take advantage of her while she is incoherent. Thus no struggle or noise to alert the other occupants of the house. The only problem, Celina dies and now the perp is left with a dead body and what to do. So the perp hides her body hoping to save them self from being caught by wrapping her in a blanket, removing her from the house and dumping her body in the river hoping she wouldn't be found.

When her body is found the death looks suspicious because her body has been wrapped in the blanket but there is no visual sign of how she died. The ME during the autopsy still cannot determine how she died and needs to wait for the TOX results to come back to determine exactly what happened. Once the TOX report is review and GHB or similar drug is found the MOD is classified as a homicide.

JMO

I do not understand the wrapped in blanket deal. Most killers just dump the body in the woods or by the side of a road. I guess we would need an opinion from an FBI profiler to get the meaning of that. I think it does mean something and might shed light on the mindset of who did it. I have heard on our news that it is believed the killer is someone other than a family member. So the town of Stewartstown has a killer or serial killer lurking around. I think she was lured out to meet someone that she met on line. Believe me there are some real wingnuts out there. The killer could also be long gone looking for the next victim in another town. I feel so bad for the families on both sides such a terrible thing and to have folks think they did is really awful. I do not and have never believed it was family and I do not think the stepfather had anything to do with it either. Time will tell, I just hope this does not end up another north country cold case. Skier

 

[Hardymum]

I agree. I was wondering if she had been bound in any way and now I do recall that the AAG kept saying "when she was "put" in the water" so yes, I'm sure they knew she was gone before she went into the river.
I hope an arrest is imminent!

She actuallly said "when she was eventually put into the water". For all we know, she could have been killed at home or somewhere else, and her body could have been moved.

Just a thought here...but could her body have been moved during the week, perhaps while someone was under surveillance, but they needed toxicology to prove how she died in the first place?

Well, maybe not, but it could explain why she'd be wrapped in a blanket...if someone went to move her remains by wrapping her in a blanket or sleeping bag.

Wasn't there someone seen putting a bag into the water? Who could that someone have been...wouldn't family members be under surveillance?

I'm still not convinced it was WN as some MSM commenters seem to be. It has seemed to me that with a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia, someone else could have done this and messed with his mind more than a little. Threatended him or convinced him that LE would suspect him no matter what...and that could cause him to react even worse than he might have.

JMO.

 

[deelytful1]

I do not understand the wrapped in blanket deal. Most killers just dump the body in the woods or by the side of a road. I guess we would need an opinion from an FBI profiler to get the meaning of that. I think it does mean something and might shed light on the mindset of who did it. I have heard on our news that it is believed the killer is someone other than a family member. So the town of Stewartstown has a killer or serial killer lurking around. I think she was lured out to meet someone that she met on line. Believe me there are some real wingnuts out there. The killer could also be long gone looking for the next victim in another town. I feel so bad for the families on both sides such a terrible thing and to have folks think they did is really awful. I do not and have never believed it was family and I do not think the stepfather had anything to do with it either. Time will tell, I just hope this does not end up another north country cold case. Skier

Not if, as JoeFriday explained it, the killer did all these things inside the home, perhaps in the basement and when he noticed Celina was dead, he carried her out in the blanket (so as not to be seen with a BODY), put her in his truck and drove to the edge of the river (or nearby)

 

[Kat]

Question that just popped into my head:
When a woman is in the very early stages of a pregnancy, would an autopsy show this or would one have to wait for toxicology (blood) tests?
TIA

ETA: Just curious and musing...

From everything I have read they would have examined the uterus (and her genital tract). IMHO yes even in very early pregnancy there would be changes inside the uterus that they would have visually seen.

I would imagine that they would have done a pregnancy test. I don't think it would take as long to get back as a toxicology test. JMHO

I've read that sometimes there are issues with slides where an expert must be called in after the slides are read to interpret toxicology. Again from reading---these toxicology tests aren't like the toxicology tests that are performed by an ER doc for instance.

They have to not only test for undetermined toxins, but they also must identify the quantity of toxins. So, what takes so long is that they have to test for so many. Some of those toxins can take months for testing. It depends on how the test has to be performed in order to identify it (such as how many steps are involved in order to get to the step where you can see if the toxin is there and how much of it is there). Some toxins aren't detected in the blood or the inner eye fluid (the name of that escapes me right now sorry) but some have to be done with samples of tissue on slides or cells on slides.

In the ER if the doc has a patient come in he/she can observe the patient and given their experiences start to narrow down the testing quickly. With a Post Mortem toxicology testing they have to test for so many more toxins. That is why sometimes we hear that bodies are exhumed or later found to have been poisioned and it didn't show on the original autopsy. It wasn't tested for and all of the one's I recall where that happened it was a heavy metal poisoning.

Just my thoughts.

 

[JeannieC]

I don't believe that scenario is ruled out completely. Depending on the evidence they have gathered, the possibility may still exist that she was unknowingly given drugs by someone which resulted in her death. There have also been cases where someone has died from a voluntarily ingested drug and the person supplying the drug has been charged with the death. So I think a drug induced death is still a very real possibility here, although I doubt Celina would have knowingly taken drugs.

I'm going to throw this out there with a limited knowlege of the poison/drug.
I've been hearing about bath salts that are being used and people are dying from them. If a child Celina'a age was told something was a bath salt and she used it in her bath could that have killed her?

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/health/bath-salt-poison-control-1-19-2011

http://www.ncpoisoncenter.org/body.cfm?id=282

 

[JeannieC]

Poison Control Centers Applaud DEA’s Ban of Bath Salts



“Poison centers were instrumental in getting the word out to law enforcement, the medical community and the public about these extremely dangerous drugs,” Dart said. “We commend the DEA for banning the chemicals in bath salts, which have injured and killed too many people and destroyed too many lives.”

The products, which have nothing to do with bathing, have been sold on the Internet and at gas stations and head shops. They contain chemicals that seem to mimic cocaine, LSD, MDPV and methamphetamine. The substance creates a very severe paranoia that sometimes causes users to harm themselves or others.

“The psychosis seen in some users is truly remarkable, in a very scary way,” said Mark Ryan, director of the Louisiana Poison Center. “People high on these drugs have done some bizarre things to themselves and hurt others around them.”

People who use bath salts to get high range in age from teens to people in their 60s, according to poison centers. Packages of the powdered substance indicate that the products are “not for human consumption,” but people have snorted, smoked or even injected the chemicals.

http://www.aapcc.org/dnn/NewsandEvents/NewsMediaResources.aspx