Found Deceased NH - Celina Cass, 11, Stewartstown, 25 July 2011 #11 *Arrest*

[~n/t~]

I'm not sure if you're asking me why I think the whole case in general was not planned or if it was poisoning that killed Celina, why it wasn't planned.



A question for you also. What indication was there (that has been released to the public) that Celina's death was premeditated regardless of whether she was poisoned or not?

Your theory is this wasn't premeditated and there is nothing to indicate that it wasn't. Until more information is released we have no idea if it was or not.

FYI..homicidal premeditation can be a couple of minutes. It doesn't have to be days, weeks or years.

 

[Texsun]

BBM

I think you might be on to something. That would explain a lot of thing in this case.

Say someone gives Celina a drug like GHB and she overdosed and died as a result. Obviously the MOD and COD would be invisible during the autopsy and only known after the TOX reports were completed. The MOD would likely be ruled a homicide given the type of drug and what it is used for and the fact that Celina was only 11 years old with no other known drug history. A drug like this could have been administered without Celina being aware of it, in a drink offered to her by the perp hoping to take advantage of her while she is incoherent. Thus no struggle or noise to alert the other occupants of the house. The only problem, Celina dies and now the perp is left with a dead body and what to do. So the perp hides her body hoping to save them self from being caught by wrapping her in a blanket, removing her from the house and dumping her body in the river hoping she wouldn't be found.

When her body is found the death looks suspicious because her body has been wrapped in the blanket but there is no visual sign of how she died. The ME during the autopsy still cannot determine how she died and needs to wait for the TOX results to come back to determine exactly what happened. Once the TOX report is review and GHB or similar drug is found the MOD is classified as a homicide.

JMO

Hey JF,

I think you're on to something! Excellent post!! I've had this senario with much more detail in my mind since the beginning!! I've said it before, that when we find out, I just know I am going to have to be sitting down. I feel really bad even typing this, but I wish someone would tell us if she was sexually assaulted. And yes, they can tell. I'm also concerned that Celina may have been being abused prior to her murder. This may not have been her only encounter. It was just another convenient time with others gone and the other two upstairs out of sight, out of mind. I have some awful visions of what an older <modsnip> page could do to an innocent 11 yr. old girl. I mean it IS obvious he has some type of sex illness with the volume of "friends" on his page and ALL of them are internet *advertiser censored* queens. His comments and wc requests speak for themselves. The page is still up and in use. I'm sure LE is monitoring as well as I am! Anyway, your post couldn't have said it better!

 

[Texsun]

Kat and deelytful, good posts! cringing saying this, but the first question would be was Celina still a virgin. As we all know, she surely should have been! and then on to further testing as you said to determine if any info could be obtained through cultures and DNA, my question on that would be of course being submerged in water for most likely a week. Being wrapped is a big factor, because it would perserve much more than nothing. Possibly why LE took 7 hrs. to remove her from the river. They took great care to enclose her in another wrapping. I'm a more than worried that river water and possible chemicals within could erase a lot of crucial results.

 

[bstnh1]

BBM

I think you might be on to something. That would explain a lot of thing in this case.

Say someone gives Celina a drug like GHB and she overdosed and died as a result. Obviously the MOD and COD would be invisible during the autopsy and only known after the TOX reports were completed. The MOD would likely be ruled a homicide given the type of drug and what it is used for and the fact that Celina was only 11 years old with no other known drug history. A drug like this could have been administered without Celina being aware of it, in a drink offered to her by the perp hoping to take advantage of her while she is incoherent. Thus no struggle or noise to alert the other occupants of the house. The only problem, Celina dies and now the perp is left with a dead body and what to do. So the perp hides her body hoping to save them self from being caught by wrapping her in a blanket, removing her from the house and dumping her body in the river hoping she wouldn't be found.

When her body is found the death looks suspicious because her body has been wrapped in the blanket but there is no visual sign of how she died. The ME during the autopsy still cannot determine how she died and needs to wait for the TOX results to come back to determine exactly what happened. Once the TOX report is review and GHB or similar drug is found the MOD is classified as a homicide.

JMO

That's exactly what I've been thinking for weeks. Let's say an unrelated male came home at 11 pm or so after some drinking. Having been associated with drugs in the past, this male may have had access to drugs and, being somewhat under the influence of alcohol, may have been in the mood to "have his way" with Celina. He slips her some drugs, in her drink or in some food, and she has a fatal reaction to them. He now has a body to dispose of. The rest is obvious. As I've maintained in the past, I do not think WN had the present of mind to cover his tracks so well. I also do not see a motive for WN to do something like this. On the other hand, I believe KM fits into the picture very well. JMO

 

[Kat]

Kat and deelytful, good posts! cringing saying this, but the first question would be was Celina still a virgin. As we all know, she surely should have been! and then on to further testing as you said to determine if any info could be obtained through cultures and DNA, my question on that would be of course being submerged in water for most likely a week. Being wrapped is a big factor, because it would perserve much more than nothing. Possibly why LE took 7 hrs. to remove her from the river. They took great care to enclose her in another wrapping. I'm a more than worried that river water and possible chemicals within could erase a lot of crucial results.

I agree she should have been. Even if she was they still would have done a visual inspection of genital tract and uterus (and ovaries..etc).

IMHO being submerged in water would probably effect topical evidence. But not internal as much. She really wasn't in the water long enough for her body to be completely compromised by the water environment.

So if she had been raped, the semen would still be found in the genital tract possibly (not impacted by being in the water).

I agree that's why it took so long to bring her to the surface.

I would think that they would account for the water and any chemicals in that water when they do testing. Again, I'm not a professional I just have really weird tastes in reading materials. JMHO

(currently reading: a book on forensic anthropology )

 

[powayparent]

I'm going to throw this out there with a limited knowlege of the poison/drug.
I've been hearing about bath salts that are being used and people are dying from them. If a child Celina'a age was told something was a bath salt and she used it in her bath could that have killed her?

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/health/bath-salt-poison-control-1-19-2011

http://www.ncpoisoncenter.org/body.cfm?id=282

People are becoming ill and dying from snorting bath salts, not from taking baths.

 

[Kat]

I have absolutely no clue who did this to her. I really don't have any suspects in mind.

But, it is interesting that a study showed that Mothers are most likely to dispose of their children by wrapping them and placing them in water. But I think that study was about infants up to school age children. Celina would not be included in that.

But to me, in my mind, her being wrapped would indicate that she may have been disposed by someone that had an affection for her. Possibly someone known to her. They wanted to wrap her up. Who knows though. Maybe they just wanted to wrap her in blanket because the blanket could have had evidence on it?

Just a few rambling thoughts again I don't suspect anyone.

 

[deelytful1]

Kat and deelytful, good posts! cringing saying this, but the first question would be was Celina still a virgin. As we all know, she surely should have been! and then on to further testing as you said to determine if any info could be obtained through cultures and DNA, my question on that would be of course being submerged in water for most likely a week. Being wrapped is a big factor, because it would perserve much more than nothing. Possibly why LE took 7 hrs. to remove her from the river. They took great care to enclose her in another wrapping. I'm a more than worried that river water and possible chemicals within could erase a lot of crucial results.

Wouldn't that be wonderful if they could have extracted some DNA (if there was any to be found)
That brings us to the fact that AAG Jane young did not mention if she was or was not sexually assaulted. Not that she would have since they're keeping most info close to the vest so its another "unknown" but Boy wouldn't that be awesome.
Maybe they're waiting to get something to compare it to (if they were able to retrieve any)

 

[joypath]

Question that just popped into my head:
When a woman is in the very early stages of a pregnancy, would an autopsy show this or would one have to wait for toxicology (blood) tests?
TIA

ETA: Just curious and musing...

:twocents: As part of an autopsy protocol, ALL internal organs are evaluated,usually weighed and as needed sectioned for histological slides. Given that the COD was NOT (according to published reports) IDENTIFIED prior to the release of the decedent's body, then definitely organ sections were retained (at least, that's according to many OME protocols).
Serum (blood) testing for hCG (human chorionic gonadotropin) is NOT part of a toxicology panel, the actual testing process for the hormone, Beta hCG, is rather rapid & "easy".
Short answer: yes, IF the internal organs are sectioned rather than just "observed" in situ, a developing pregnancy would be noted.

 

[cluciano63]

I hope if a drug was used, Celina was unable to feel or know whatever happened to her before and during her death...

 

[iamnotagolem]

I'm so sad this case hasn't been solved.

The longer this case goes on, the less likely I think it is someone in the family. In the recent discussion regarding rape, molestation, etc. I think it's possible that she was molested and had been for a while but still possible that her molester wasn't her killer. For example, it's possible that WN molested her but didn't kill her. Would explain mother's & MIL's disgust towards WN in the interviews (which I haven't/can't watch).

I still think it's possible that CC was killed and placed in the river during the investigation.

I'm so bothered by this whole thing, I think about Celina every day. I hope they find out who did this.

 

[deelytful1]

:twocents: As part of an autopsy protocol, ALL internal organs are evaluated,usually weighed and as needed sectioned for histological slides. Given that the COD was NOT (according to published reports) IDENTIFIED prior to the release of the decedent's body, then definitely organ sections were retained (at least, that's according to many OME protocols).
Serum (blood) testing for hCG (human chorionic gonadotropin) is NOT part of a toxicology panel, the actual testing process for the hormone, Beta hCG, is rather rapid & "easy".
Short answer: yes, IF the internal organs are sectioned rather than just "observed" in situ, a developing pregnancy would be noted.

Not to belabor this, but would they perform this testing on an 11 year old? I guess its a moot point if its not part of a toxicology panel though. If this was the case, they'd know it prior to the tox results
TIA!

 

[Texsun]

That's exactly what I've been thinking for weeks. Let's say an unrelated male came home at 11 pm or so after some drinking. Having been associated with drugs in the past, this male may have had access to drugs and, being somewhat under the influence of alcohol, may have been in the mood to "have his way" with Celina. He slips her some drugs, in her drink or in some food, and she has a fatal reaction to them. He now has a body to dispose of. The rest is obvious. As I've maintained in the past, I do not think WN had the present of mind to cover his tracks so well. I also do not see a motive for WN to do something like this. On the other hand, I believe KM fits into the picture very well. JMO

and I agree with you on this one too! I think KM is just as capable, and you could be absolutely correct in that he is the one who did it. IIRC, there was news that he had no alibi between the hrs. of 11:00 and 2:00 AM other than driving around and someone did see him. Then we had the report that he himself said that he came home around midnight? and he "remembers" sitting on the couch? Those words have never left me. In addition, I read he also had several chains and cement blocks in his truck that he stole from a former employer. I also read he had two pregnant girlfriends. I could never find out for sure, but it was stated by locals sometime in the beginning when his truck was seized immediately after Celina went missing and before she was found. LE was hitting hard on him! No, he doesn't sit well with me either. It will be interesting to see which one or maybe both involved??? Evidently KM and WN got along quite well all living together and KM is listed as WN's friends out of 134 queens on his FB! KM Knew what WN had on his FB without a doubt and knew he was posting and playing with *advertiser censored*. I think there both nasty and sick!

 

[joypath]

What if it was GHB? The date rape drug? Perhaps they found she was sexually assaulted, (perhaps found with no clothes) & they found an excess of GHB (roofies) in her system?
The other evidence might be leads that she DID have an online b-friend OR a local b-friend

I've followed this case from the beginning and was waiting for the final results and to now have NO final results yet is nerve racking....
Sigh...

:twocents: GHB (gamma-hydroxybutyric acid) has a wicked FAST half life (about 30-60 minutes depending upon the diluent that it is in) and is difficult to detect in a urine tox screen as it clears the body quickly. (Urine tox SCREENS can be run by the technical staff while the pathologist is performing the autopsy). However, it can be detected and quantified in body tissues. The chemical itself CAN be produced within the body AND thus the quantity and organ source is very important in evaluating the tox results.
:twocents: The entire corpse is evaluated, externally and then internally. Diagrams that notate any & all physical conditions (both "normal" ( a well-healed scar) and unique (fresh,gagged tear on the skin). Given the discovery of a missing female child, a full rape (sexual assault) kit would have been performed. Even with the time of submersion, there is a possibility that evidence would be remaining. Without being graphic, the physical condition of the body COULD give witness to an assault.

 

[joypath]

Not to belabor this, but would they perform this testing on an 11 year old? I guess its a moot point if its not part of a toxicology panel though. If this was the case, they'd know it prior to the tox results
TIA!

YEP, age isn't a factor in clinical testing.

 

[deelytful1]

:twocents: GHB (gamma-hydroxybutyric acid) has a wicked FAST half life (about 30-60 minutes depending upon the diluent that it is in) and is difficult to detect in a urine tox screen as it clears the body quickly. (Urine tox SCREENS can be run by the technical staff while the pathologist is performing the autopsy). However, it can be detected and quantified in body tissues. The chemical itself CAN be produced within the body AND thus the quantity and organ source is very important in evaluating the tox results.
:twocents: The entire corpse is evaluated, externally and then internally. Diagrams that notate any & all physical conditions (both "normal" ( a well-healed scar) and unique (fresh,gagged tear on the skin). Given the discovery of a missing female child, a full rape (sexual assault) kit would have been performed. Even with the time of submersion, there is a possibility that evidence would be remaining. Without being graphic, the physical condition of the body COULD give witness to an assault.

Gee, no wonder GHB is popular among the perverts! I think I saw this on forensic files once... a lawyer argued that the amount of GHB found in the victim (live victim) corresponded with the amounts that can be naturally produced by the body but they found an excessive amount elsewhere in her body (can't remember) which proved that she had been dosed.
Thanks for your help joypath! What an amazing occupation.

 

[joypath]

Would toxicology reports include any substance that was found on or inside the body? For example, skin cream/lotion residue, etc.?
JMO, I'm guessing the "murder weapon" was a pair of hands... nothing more, unless something was stuffed in her mouth that might have blocked her airway.
CC ingesting something orally, that would have taken some time to take effect. And like JoeFriday mentioned, it is very unlikely this child would have allowed someone to inject or force her to ingest something without a struggle, which would probably cause noise.
I doubt the body was mutilated ( except for what might have resulted if there was a sexual assault ), I would suspect that her LE discouraged CC's parent's from viewing her body because of the conditon it was in from being in the water. Besides skin slippage, I would imagine the face would be very distorted.
No doubt, LE most likely asked LN to view the blanket CC was wrapped in and and tell them whether it came from their home or not.

BBM :twocents: Any testing of trace evidence would be performed by another section of a laboratory other than toxicology, pe se. BUT the testing of said trace evidence (aka "something weird or that doesn't "fit"/"belong" where it is found") is performed via GC/MS (similar to tox testing) and observed under a microscope. :rocker:

 

[Texsun]

Wouldn't that be wonderful if they could have extracted some DNA (if there was any to be found)
That brings us to the fact that AAG Jane young did not mention if she was or was not sexually assaulted. Not that she would have since they're keeping most info close to the vest so its another "unknown" but Boy wouldn't that be awesome.
Maybe they're waiting to get something to compare it to (if they were able to retrieve any)

Yes, I think so too and surely LE has obtained DNA samples from both WN and KM. Even with WN being in a so called hospital, LE could obtain that while he was in there. Might have been another thing he was uncooperative with in addition to talking with LE. As much as they investigated KM immediately after Celina was missing and again a few wks. ago, I'm sure they have something from him also. Keeping my fingers crossed we learn soon. I'm sad to say this, but I suspect she was drugged and violated. I don't think the act of wrapping her was out of caring or love. I believe it was to conceal the body, in the dark of the night and carried out that door we saw pictures of that LE was testing. Makes me now think there may have been blue fibers on or around that doorway. I always thought that doorway led to the basement.

 

[JeannieC]

People are becoming ill and dying from snorting bath salts, not from taking baths.

I believe my question was misunderstood. I realize these bath salts are not for bathing. My question is, "Can this be absorbed through the skin"? Also, if someone were to open the container and smell the salts or powder would or could that be enough to cause a reaction or even death?

This can also be mixed into food or drinks.

TIA

 

[Texsun]

Joypath, you are fantastic! Thx so much!!! Now is GHB the same or similar to "Roofies"??? or is that another? what about Ecstacy? Those are the two that come to mind and are fairly popular names I hear in Tx. in relation to sex assaults. I guess I'm trying to find out what the popular street drug is in and around that area. Of course any type of drug administered to an 11 yr. old would be dangerous. Hydro C, Oxy C, and several types of anti anxiety meds could render a young girl and it wouldn't take long for her to feel the effects. Thx again for the excellent info!