NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

[Lolacat]

How do we know she wasn't on psych meds? Or bought them illegally if not prescribed? Alcohol and psych meds do not mix well together.


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We dont. But according to most of the reports Ive read there was no evidence or history of mental illness etc... That doesnt mean she didnt have mental health issues but if we are just speculating then she *could* have been on any number of drugs (illegal or otherwise), for all we know.

 

[Fireweed]

To me having breakdowns at work to the point of being catatonic, getting into two wrecks in a three day period, packing up an entire dorm room, fleeing the scene of an accident, drinking and driving, and stealing credit cards do not point to a very mentally healthy person to me. In fact I would consider a person exhibiting all those behaviors to be having at least some mental health issues.

Unless Maura was in some very serious trouble that we do not know about, all these things at the very least point to someone with very few coping skills.

 

[ManyAndFew]

Hi all,

Sorry for the TL;DR in advance.

I'm new here, but have been following the case for years. Just a quick background on me, to lend my post some credibility. I'm in my late 30s, I work as an instructor for a European automobile manufacturer. This means that I basically teach other people how to drive 4x4 in rough terrain, such as sand, snow, rocky terrain et al. Our clients include law enforcement, army, ambulance and fire departments. The ones that buys our cars that is.

There are two accidents here, one with a brand new Toyota Corolla and the fateful one with the 1996 Saturn. A while back I had a friend of mine, who coincidentally works for Toyota as a body repair specialist, run the numbers of that $8.000 (some report 10k) worth of damages to that Corolla. In his opinion that number was insanely high for a collision with a guardrail. In most cases collisions with guardrails only gives superficial damages to the chassis, this in turn is relatively cheap to fix unless there is damages to the frame or the cage. So likely she was speeding drunkenly and smashed the car into the railing. This probably means nothing tho, since the Corolla really isn't an issue.

Onto the Saturn. In the nineties some cars had one common sensor for both airbags in the front (driver/passenger). This is probably why both airbags deployed. Also according to my friend, in some cases the plastic lids shielding the airbags will be shot out of the steering wheel/dash and can cause a crack in the windshield. There is also a very good chance that when she lost control of the car the car spun and hit something. That way the windshield was cracked.

Other places I've read that the accident itself was suspicious. Not at all. If she indeed was headed east that particular section of road has a curve. She lost control of the vehicle [in that curve] and hit the snow bank. Since 2 p.m. that day the weather was above freezing and it could mean that the road was slippery. The 96 Saturn has all the weight in front of the car, engine, drive train, transmission and passenger weight. Add to the fact that this car was a little run down and poorly maintained, the tires were probably in bad shape. Her rear end lost traction and she crashed.

Thank you for reading. This is all very standard and not very revolutionary stuff, but I needed to get this off my chest. If anything, in my humble opinion, what needs to be looked into is her route that day she disappeared. I'm not entirely certain she took the I 91 north.

I have my own theory as to what happened to her, I'll post that separately since this is already a very long post.

 

[ManyAndFew]

Regarding the rag in the tailpipe.

Suggestions indicated that Fred told his daughter to stuff a rag in there to stop the exhaust from smoking. If Fred knew anything about cars he would have told her to have an oil change instead. I'm not going to bombastically say that stuffing a rag in there would kill the engine, because the rag would have to cover the pipe completely to do so. Or maybe the pipe had a leak further inwards? No way of knowing.

But Fred said that the reason for buying her a new car was that the Saturn apparently ran on only 3 cylinders and had a wicked smoke coming from the exhaust. These two problems are not related and tells me that Fred didn't know a whole lot about cars. Also it appeared like he accepted the 8-10k in damages at face value, not investigating that further.

 

[docwho3]

. . .I'm new here, but have been following the case for years. Just a quick background on me, to lend my post some credibility. I'm in my late 30s, I work as an instructor for a European automobile manufacturer. This means that I basically teach other people how to drive 4x4 in rough terrain, such as sand, snow, rocky terrain et al. Our clients include law enforcement, army, ambulance and fire departments. The ones that buys our cars that is. . .

Thank you for an informative and helpful post. I, as an ordinary posting member, appreciate that you have taken the time to help.

 

[ManyAndFew]

Thank you for an informative and helpful post. I, as an ordinary posting member, appreciate that you have taken the time to help.

Nice of you to say!

 

[Fireweed]

Thank you ManyandFew. Actually some of the these you are talking about are not obvious to everyone. I agree that $8,000 always sounded like a lot in terms of damage.

I highly doubt if Fred is not knowledgeable about cars. My father is about 3 years younger than Fred, and grew up middle class. I suspect that Fred either grew up working or middle class, but certainly of no higher class than that. My dad almost never took one of our cars to a mechanic, and all my friends' dads were the same way. My point is that men from those classes who are from that generation always had basic automotive skills. That means they would have know what a smoking car means, or that a rag up the tail pipe would either be fruitless or make the problem worse, but never actually solve a problem

Cars are more complicated these days, but I find it very hard to believe that a man Fred's age would not always first "pop the hood" of his daughter's car before buying a new car, or advising her to stick a rag up the tailpipe. I also find it hard to believe that a man of his generation would not know that fixing a car that is running on three cylinders is a lot cheaper than $4,000.

Besides, the car was fine. It made it on a 3 hour road trip in winter. Maura had to have stopped at least 2 times and both times the car started, and it did not break down on the way up there.

I do not believe Fred at all that he was up there to buy Maura another car. It beggars belief that a man who grow up in Fred's time and in his social class would plunk down $4,000 for a car when the current one just needed to be repaired.

 

[ManyAndFew]

Good points there Fireweed.

I'm really torn in my view of Fred to be perfectly honest. I don't think he is directly involved in her disappearance, but his overall behavior really looks strange this whole time. This whole business with the car(s) is baffling.

He must have suspected that she wrecked his car while driving drunk. Why on earth would he splash out 4K for a car for her? He would be livid, like any other parent.

 

[Fireweed]

Good points there Fireweed.

I'm really torn in my view of Fred to be perfectly honest. I don't think he is directly involved in her disappearance, but his overall behavior really looks strange this whole time. This whole business with the car(s) is baffling.

He must have suspected that she wrecked his car while driving drunk. Why on earth would he splash out 4K for a car for her? He would be livid, like any other parent.

I agree. I do not think that Fred is directly responsible for her disappearance. He has said and done a lot of very odd things that simply do not make sense to me. I can only conclude the following:

1. Fred is very concerned with his, his daughter's and his family's reputation. He is so concerned about it, that he will do anything to protect it, even if it means not giving out information that could help find Maura.

2. Fred knows something or is involved in something criminal and as it pertains to Maura. He knows that by fleeing the jurisdiction, the statute of limitations has not tolled for Maura. He is protecting her (and maybe himself along with it).

3. Fred knows where Maura is and knows she is alive. For whatever reason, he is determined to keep her secret for her.

What I do not believe:

1. That Fred went up there to buy a car for Maura.

2. That Fred did not know how much "trouble" Maura was in (i.e. she is not the "All-American Girl". He may not have known everything, but I think he was catching on the fact that Maura's life was falling apart.

3. That Fred sincerely believes that Maura's reasons for going up to Haverhill that night are "irrelevant". (He would only know that if he knew what happened to her).

4. That Fred was not upset that Maura wrecked his car.

5. That something big did not go down that night in the hotel.

On the fence about:

1. Fred may or may not have actual knowledge as to why Maura went up there that night. He could have some ideas, but I am not convinced he knows for sure.

 

[KenShabby]

Fred said that the reason for buying her a new car was that the Saturn apparently ran on only 3 cylinders and had a wicked smoke coming from the exhaust. These two problems are not related and tells me that Fred didn't know a whole lot about cars.

Remember, too, that the phrase "running on three cylinders" can be used as a figure of speech. If I'm not feeling well, I might describe myself as running on three cylinders, or not running on all cylinders. So, the statement needn't be taken literally — even though Maura's Saturn was indeed a four cylinder car. (I had a Saturn of the same vintage.)

 

[Fireweed]

I always took it literally. It is figurative when you are describing a person, i.e. "my brain is not firing on all four cylinders today".

At any rate, the car was fine. It made it up to Haverhill without incident.

 

[ManyAndFew]

Remember, too, that the phrase "running on three cylinders" can be used as a figure of speech. If I'm not feeling well, I might describe myself as running on three cylinders, or not running on all cylinders. So, the statement needn't be taken literally — even though Maura's Saturn was indeed a four cylinder car. (I had a Saturn of the same vintage.)

Yes, we have a very similar figure of speech in my native language, and I've used it often. I've just always took this literally in this case, but you could of course be right.

Even with 3 of 4 cylinders the car would run just fine. The thing about the excessive smoke from the exhaust could be a variety of reasons, but in probably something very trivial, like oil or filters. I'm just trying to understand why Fred would buy her a new car. Etc.

 

[BillNH]

Yes, we have a very similar figure of speech in my native language, and I've used it often. I've just always took this literally in this case, but you could of course be right.

Even with 3 of 4 cylinders the car would run just fine. The thing about the excessive smoke from the exhaust could be a variety of reasons, but in probably something very trivial, like oil or filters. I'm just trying to understand why Fred would buy her a new car. Etc.

On 3 cylinders it would run. Fine may be overstating it. If 1/4 of the cylinders were not firing you would experience loss of power, loss of fuel efficiency, engine vibration and possibly some amount of exhaust smoke depending on the degree of cylinder failure but not so much to draw any attention requiring some way to mask the smoke. Black engine smoke is usually due to worn piston rings that lets oil into the firing chamber resulting in oil being burned in addition to the gas and air mix. White smoke usually indicates a cracked head or bad head gasket which allows antifreeze into the firing chamber. I believe the car was running adequately even if it was spewing black smoke. I believe Fred either was ignorant of how an internal combustion engine works, or exaggerated the problem to explain his trip. I think it very possible, in his ignorance, that he told her to put the rag in the tailpipe as to not draw attention to her while driving under the influence as I am sure she did it plenty and he was aware of that. It is my opinion only, but Many men of his generation and social status worked on their own vehicles. However, not all, especially one who aspires to appear as from a higher social class than they really are. I think Fred would rather pay someone to fix his cars rather than appear as if he was forced economically to do it himself.

 

[dogperson]

Do we know for a fact that Fred even withdrew the $4,000 from his bank? Or do we just have his explanation for it? I'm thinking maybe he really did take out $4,000 for something but maybe the car buying trip was a cover for it. Maybe Maura needed it for something else. She owed somebody? She was paying somebody to keep quiet about something? She needed an abortion? I have no idea. But I think him saying she had gone off to die like a squaw sounds odd if he thinks what happened in the days leading up to her disappearance had nothing to do with it. I think he knew she was upset or despondent over something. For all we know, Maura took the $4,000 with her when she took off, unless it has turned up later and I missed that post. We know how much she got from the ATM but we don't know if Fred gave her money. I think he did not intend or expect her to disappear, but I do think whatever happened in the motel room that night was some kind of very serious problem Maura couldn't wait til morning for.

 

[trenchmouth]

I thought I read somwhere that one of the local lodges or hotels near where she disappeared when they did their year end accounting they were off by $4,000 and could not determine why.

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[ManyAndFew]

Do we know for a fact that Fred even withdrew the $4,000 from his bank? Or do we just have his explanation for it? I'm thinking maybe he really did take out $4,000 for something but maybe the car buying trip was a cover for it.

We know that he claims he did eight ATM transactions and withdrew a total of $4.000. According to his interview with Boston Magazine. The same interview were he claims he suggested she use the rag in pipe-trick. He says that he didn't have enough cash to cover the car purchase and ended up postponing this until he could return with more money.

I have to say it's more doable to repair the Saturn then.

Maura’s 1996 Saturn “kind of blew a cylinder” and was “smoking something fierce,” according to Fred Murray. “I said, ‘You can’t drive this car. The cops will pull you over in a heartbeat,’” he recalls. As a temporary fix, Fred says he suggested she put a rag inside the tailpipe to hide the smoke. He says he withdrew $4,000 over the course of eight ATM transactions and that on that Saturday he took Maura to purchase a car in Northampton. They ended up a couple of thousand dollars short, though, so Fred figured he’d go home, round up some more money, and come back another time.

 

[scoops]

On 3 cylinders it would run. Fine may be overstating it. If 1/4 of the cylinders were not firing you would experience loss of power, loss of fuel efficiency, engine vibration and possibly some amount of exhaust smoke depending on the degree of cylinder failure but not so much to draw any attention requiring some way to mask the smoke. Black engine smoke is usually due to worn piston rings that lets oil into the firing chamber resulting in oil being burned in addition to the gas and air mix. White smoke usually indicates a cracked head or bad head gasket which allows antifreeze into the firing chamber. I believe the car was running adequately even if it was spewing black smoke. I believe Fred either was ignorant of how an internal combustion engine works, or exaggerated the problem to explain his trip. I think it very possible, in his ignorance, that he told her to put the rag in the tailpipe as to not draw attention to her while driving under the influence as I am sure she did it plenty and he was aware of that. It is my opinion only, but Many men of his generation and social status worked on their own vehicles. However, not all, especially one who aspires to appear as from a higher social class than they really are. I think Fred would rather pay someone to fix his cars rather than appear as if he was forced economically to do it himself.

Order of how things happened:

Fred had warned police that his daughter may have come to their area to do personal harm to himself, before fred had even left Shelton Connecticut to come to the white mountains area.

Police discovered the rag in the tailpipe and came to the conclusion that the rag may have been a hurried suicide attempt which only bolsters what Maura's dad had warned them.

When fred arrived to the scene and was being briefed, he was put on the spot about the rag in the tailpipe.

Fred (at that point, regretting that he led police to believe his daughter may have been suicidal) had to come up with an answer for it on the spot.

His answer made little sense and sounds like someone pulling it out of their butt.


Conclusion

Fred likely never had a conversation with his daughter about what to do with a rag in a tailpipe. It was his story to police to get them to switch focus from Maura being a personal danger to herself to Maura running into danger instead in the white mountains area.

If Maura had met with foul play, police would have to increase resources and time on the case until they got answers.

 

[Fireweed]

Order of how things happened:



Conclusion

Fred likely never had a conversation with his daughter about what to do with a rag in a tailpipe. It was his story to police to get them to switch focus from Maura being a personal danger to herself to Maura running into danger instead in the white mountains area.

If Maura had met with foul play, police would have to increase resources and time on the case until they got answers.

ITA. I think that Fred knew that the rag could look like a botched suicide attempt, so he insisted that he told Maura to put it up there.

Again, no man Fred's age would tell his younger daughter to do something that would stall her car. Sheet, maybe Maura knew that a rag stuffed up there would prevent the car from running, so she did it on purpose to stop someone from stealing the car. A tipsy mind running on adrenaline will do some weird stuff.

 

[Tssiemer]

Did Maura tell any of her friends her dad was buying her a car or do we know? How much better of a car could he get her for 4,000 anyway?


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[scoops]

Did Maura tell any of her friends her dad was buying her a car or do we know? How much better of a car could he get her for 4,000 anyway?


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Fred at least told one reporter that they had picked out a three-year old Geo Prizm.

So whatever a 2001 Geo Prizm would've sold for in 2004 is what it would've cost, if you believe fred's account to a reporter. The Geo prizm was actually called the Chevy Prizm by 2001.