NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #13

[Fireweed]

There is still the possibility that she jogged up the road for a while and was abducted/got into a car there.

Also, I think we sometimes forget that it was dark out when all this happened.

 

[Tarik]

There is still the possibility that she jogged up the road for a while and was abducted/got into a car there.

Also, I think we sometimes forget that it was dark out when all this happened.

From what I recall, it was explained in the Unsolved Mysteries clip and by John Smith and unnamed witnesses that she would have been spotted by somebody if she jogged up the road.

The darkness was certainly a factor, most disappearances would not happen if it weren't for the darkness which basically clouds everything and makes it much easier for someone to disappear or get away with abduction/murder. If someone wanted to commit a heinous crime and get away with it, a dark road at night in pitch black darkness would be the perfect setting to do it.

 

[killadff]

Thank's. I take everything John Smith says with a grain of salt. I find that he has an agenda and sticks to it when presenting the "facts". I would like corroboration from more than one source. Just because I hear something on a blog, doesn't mean I take it as fact. *EDIT* I'm sorry, I should have also said that I have listened to those podcasts with Smith.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

Forgive me if this avenue of speculation is out of line, but does anyone know whether John Smith himself was officially cleared of any involvement in Maura's disappearance? The way he's managed to inject himself into the case and the admission that his life fell apart shortly thereafter fit with post-offense behavior in any number of similar cases that have been resolved. Add to that his obvious paranoia and aggressive demeanor, and it all amounts to a guy who, at the very least, ought not to be taken entirely at his word.

 

[leep]

I

Forgive me if this avenue of speculation is out of line, but does anyone know whether John Smith himself was officially cleared of any involvement in Maura's disappearance? The way he's managed to inject himself into the case and the admission that his life fell apart shortly thereafter fit with post-offense behavior in any number of similar cases that have been resolved. Add to that his obvious paranoia and aggressive demeanor, and it all amounts to a guy who, at the very least, ought not to be taken entirely at his word.

I think in the very early days of MM going missing JS offered his services to FM but was scared off by LE and threatened with charges but after a certain amount of time he got back involved with helping FM.



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[Tarik]

I

I think in the very early days of MM going missing JS offered his services to FM but was scared off by LE and threatened with charges but after a certain amount of time he got back involved with helping FM.



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Exactly, John Smith basically offered his help to Fred Murra more or less right away but was told by law enforcement to back off and let them do the job otherwise they would arrest him with interfering with a police investigation. Finally, according to John Smith, FM called him wanting his help a few weeks later and LE have accepted his contribution ever since. I don't know what his alibi is for the night of the disappearance or if that alibi was ever verified but his behavior is not consistent with someone trying to hide something.

 

[Fireweed]

I think we should always have a healthy dose of skepticism towards the middle-aged-man-*advertiser censored*-detective who heavily injects himself in a case like this. I am not saying they are not right about some things, but these types love to pop up whenever there is a pretty young girl missing or murdered.

 

[Tarik]

I think we should always have a healthy dose of skepticism towards the middle-aged-man-*advertiser censored*-detective who heavily injects himself in a case like this. I am not saying they are not right about some things, but these types love to pop up whenever there is a pretty young girl missing or murdered.

And in what way is that wrong or dangerous? I'm asking this question seriously.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

And in what way is that wrong or dangerous? I'm asking this question seriously.

Because sometimes, those guys are later found to be the perpetrators.

 

[Tarik]

Because sometimes, those guys are later found to be the perpetrators.

I can't think of any recent cases where that happened but if you have examples I'd love to take a look at them. With that being said, I don't see how John Smith could have anything to do with Maura's disappearance. And if he did harm her in some way then he is the best actor and manipulator possibly in the history of missing person cases.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

I'm not saying Smith did it, just that he's hardly a trustworthy source of unbiased information and should at least be investigated and cleared if he hasn't been already.

 

[killadff]

Forgive me if this avenue of speculation is out of line, but does anyone know whether John Smith himself was officially cleared of any involvement in Maura's disappearance? The way he's managed to inject himself into the case and the admission that his life fell apart shortly thereafter fit with post-offense behavior in any number of similar cases that have been resolved. Add to that his obvious paranoia and aggressive demeanor, and it all amounts to a guy who, at the very least, ought not to be taken entirely at his word.

Smith had a great job at a local tourist attraction as "The Wolfman". It was right up his alley and suited him well. Next thing I heard, he quit his job to investigate Maura Murray full time. It's strange.

 

[killadff]

Butch cannot see the car from inside his house. He has said that he saw several cars pass him when he was in the bus doing paperwork, but it was too dark to see any detail. Faith has stated that, once she saw Butch at the car, she looks away for a few minutes. There is about a five minute gap in the timeline where no one can say for sure that they see Maura. Try this: have someone out on the street outside your house. Now close your eyes and count to 60. Where are they now? A minute is a long time. Add to the fact that it's pitch dark rural area.
The idea that "nobody saw anything" is a non sequiter. There are at least three witnesses who saw something, just not at a key point in the time line.

 

[Fireweed]

And in what way is that wrong or dangerous? I'm asking this question seriously.

I do not think it is dangerous no. What I think it is, is that these men are at an age where they no longer have sexual/intimate access to young, pretty women, and getting really involved in a case like this fills that void a bit at the same time they get to be "heroes" to the family and the public.

There is a reason the police cannot stand have men like this attaching themselves to the investigation.

 

[Fireweed]

Butch cannot see the car from inside his house. He has said that he saw several cars pass him when he was in the bus doing paperwork, but it was too dark to see any detail. Faith has stated that, once she saw Butch at the car, she looks away for a few minutes. There is about a five minute gap in the timeline where no one can say for sure that they see Maura. Try this: have someone out on the street outside your house. Now close your eyes and count to 60. Where are they now? A minute is a long time. Add to the fact that it's pitch dark rural area.
The idea that "nobody saw anything" is a non sequiter. There are at least three witnesses who saw something, just not at a key point in the time line.

Yeah to me we are trying to prove a negative when we say "no one saw anything, thus it did not happen". Proving a negative is near impossible. Getting in a car and driving away takes less than 30 seconds.

 

[scoops]

Butch cannot see the car from inside his house. He has said that he saw several cars pass him when he was in the bus doing paperwork, but it was too dark to see any detail. Faith has stated that, once she saw Butch at the car, she looks away for a few minutes. There is about a five minute gap in the timeline where no one can say for sure that they see Maura. Try this: have someone out on the street outside your house. Now close your eyes and count to 60. Where are they now? A minute is a long time. Add to the fact that it's pitch dark rural area.
The idea that "nobody saw anything" is a non sequiter. There are at least three witnesses who saw something, just not at a key point in the time line.

Actually there were five witnesses that were watching Maura. Don't forget about the Marottes. They were actually closest to where maura's car wrecked (as she wrecked near their front yard. They watched Maura (AFTER) the school bus driver had departed the scene and went back to his house. So the window for her to vanish into thin air is actually even smaller.

 

[Ricochet]

I also agree that John Smith should be taken with a grain of salt. That in no way implies that I think he's guilty of anything, but I do believe some people like to attach/interject themselves into a situation for notoriety which he has done. I also think the podcast people should be taken with a grain of salt, as well as, James Renner. Although I'd consider James to be the most reputable out of the bunch because he's actually interviewed people, produced documents and has attempted to gain access to more documents. It's my opinion after this length of time Haverhill and Amherst are abusing the FOIA.

I've posted many times that I think Maura had much more time to getaway than people might think. I agree with James Renner that it's very unlikely that either the Westman's or the Atwoods stared at the accident scene the entire duration of when the phone call to police was made and when they arrived. It was winter and dark out and Maura wouldn't have had to walk much to be out of sight. The police didn't arrive immediately and conduct a search for Maura. They looked over the accident scene and talked to witnesses (per the police report). That'd be additional time for Maura to get away. The road conditions were dry, not wet or icy (per the police report) she would've been able to make good time on foot. It was likely that she'd been drinking so their was motive for her to avoid police. At that point in time Maura was nobody in particular except a person who got into an accident and wasn't at the scene. That's all the police would've known about her. I suspect the extent of the search was a drive up and down the road. It seems more reasonable than not that Cecil Smith would infer that she got a ride from someone or found another means to get help. Even though I believe she went someways down the road and hid in the woods, it's unlikely that Cecil Smith would jump to the conclusion that she's not at the accident so she must of ran off into the woods. Fire/Ems were gone by 9PM and Cecil Smith was gone by 9:30 PM. Maura wasn't declared a missing person until Tuesday and a major search wasn't done until Wednesday. I don't think under the circumstances, at that time, it would've been difficult to avoid the police and she had more than sufficient time to flee the scene whether it be getting lost in the woods and dying from exposure or at some point finding a ride from someone. The dog losing the scent really doesn't mean all that much because there's several factors as to why that could happen.

 

[Caffeine]

I wouldn't necessarily agree with the notion that because people close by witnessed Maura right after the crash, so naturally nothing out of the ordinary or nefarious happened or else it would have been seen.

Clearly no one watched for any extended period and both Butch and the Westmans offered accounts with some uncertainties in them.

Regardless she slipped away one way or the other and no one noticed...because no one truly thought much of it and paid no real attention to the event.

To go unnoticed for a few minutes is one thing, but her departure has be a result of 1) a car 2) on foot staying by the road or 3) on foot almost immediately to the woods.

I can see the woods being a viable option just due to the sheer mystery of this all, but had she walked down the road for any extended time I would think there would have been more detailed sightings....unless no one was watching [emoji6]

 

[Tarik]

I do not think it is dangerous no. What I think it is, is that these men are at an age where they no longer have sexual/intimate access to young, pretty women, and getting really involved in a case like this fills that void a bit at the same time they get to be "heroes" to the family and the public.

There is a reason the police cannot stand have men like this attaching themselves to the investigation.

Fair enough but what does the fact that they potentially no longer have sexual/intimate access to young, pretty women have to do with them wanting to come out of this as heroes?? I just don't understand the connection and I don't feel like John Smith would act any different if Maura happened to be a man. Hell, if a disappearance happened 15 miles from my house and stayed unsolved for years, I too would want to get in and find out what happened, regardless of the potential victim being male or female.

 

[Fireweed]

Fair enough but what does the fact that they potentially no longer have sexual/intimate access to young, pretty women have to do with them wanting to come out of this as heroes?? I just don't understand the connection and I don't feel like John Smith would act any different if Maura happened to be a man. Hell, if a disappearance happened 15 miles from my house and stayed unsolved for years, I too would want to get in and find out what happened, regardless of the potential victim being male or female.

I do not think there is a connection exactly; what I think is that by attaching themselves to cases like this they get to live out two fantasies at once.