NO BAIL! Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 -#29

[Dodo]

Sorry, have very little to contribute really but am still avidly reading as this case has really got under my skin. Just when their was a mention that the plan was to make it look like suicide, hence taking the two cars to the creek. I was thinking, how could they make it look like suicide if she hadnt jumped from the bridge, then with mention of a plastic bag, perhaps that was put on after the murder to make it look like suicide and to a lesser degree to prevent hair shedding in the car. When the two cars were spotted at the bridge by someone and they decided not to leave allison's car, their plan was ruined to a degree. I don't know if this makes sense, or if you can commit suicide with a plastic bag, but that kind of would explain how the police knew straight away how she died.

 

[Opinionsgalore]

Any kind of asphyxiation may show similarly on an autopsy, the other evidence from the scene is necessary to determine which method caused it. So if there's hand prints on the neck, that's manual strangulation, white around the mouth and nose means a clamped hand and usually there will be nail marks where they dig in during the event or from the victim trying to remove it. Smothering with a pillow or a plastic bag over the head can leave the face white. Ligature will leave a mark around the neck. Sometimes the external "bruises" aren't visible but there will be signs under the skin. Also any items left with the victim can help determine the method used. Compression asphyxia doesn't necessarily leave visible signs, this is where the victim's chest is sat on and the weight compresses them stopping them inhaling.

I'm waiting on Dr Watson, as I have been troubled by the no obvious COD and had this scenario play out on my head. If GBC put his full weight onto Allisons upper back ( imagine her stomach down on bed), then this would prevent her from breathing (I think) without leaving any marks on her face or neck.
I'm leaning towards something starting in the bathroom and ending in another room.


IMO
JMO
MOO

 

[marlywings]

This is paining me to write this IMO this is what could have occurred:
ABC comes home from the hairdresser full of confidence and looking good.
GBC makes some snide comment about how can she spent so much on the hairdresser when he tried to buy something at Woollies and his card got rejected.
They play pretend happy family until he girls go to bed.
The remarks keep flying 'how can you spent that much money ?'; 'well if I didn't have to be at the same conference as your bit on the side I wouldn't need to, to make me feel better, how much money do you spent on hotel rooms?'
GBC goes and has a shower, Allison follows and keeps asking 'why are you having a shower, are you going out?, are you seeing someone else?' She physically starts attacking him and getting more and more angry.
GBC knows that he does not have much more time before he loans are due to TM, there isn't a hope in hell he can repay by 30 June and knows the only option is the one he has been thinking about which is to do away with Allison so he can get the insurance. Pay out. He has been thinking about it for awhile but decides this is the time.
He grabs her and pushes her head in he sink until she seems unconscious or dead.
He goes and grabs some lock ties and a plastic bag, places it over her head and than realises he has to do something to make sure he doesn't get nailed for this. He rings TM and his father from Allison's phone (thinking he will get rid of it with he body ). TM comes over and helps out but they need someone else to drive another car so he rings NGB again this time on FaceTime and says 'please I need to do something, he kids are here alone, I need to get rid of he body and the evidence please help'
NGB only agrees if he doesn't have to drive his car there so they pick him up a the roundabout. By than he already knows what has happened.
Someone (don't know who, maybe TM, stays behind to be in the house and starts cleaning up.

Maybe all too far fetched but in my opinion pretty plausible.
All IMOO

Sounds plausible to me Rational...if that is true about the credit card, I could see that being the very thing that's tipped him right over the edge. His anger would have reached the max because he couldn't get whatever it was he wanted...rejection...couldn't handle it.

 

[DunnoZo]

While I think the bath theory interesting, I find it hard to believe a woman would go to the hairdresser, then go home for a bath. Wouldn't that ruin her hair? Your thoughts?

I use my dear friend the shower cap! and it works a treat!

 

[marlywings]

Does NBC have a pool? Just wondering if GBC needed bleach and used chlorine or just had normal bleach brought over.
Just a thought, although probably a silly one

Going by GoogleEarth there doesn't appear to be a pool at that house...although the last image update of the map is 2009 so could have added one since then...if they had the $$$s that is.

 

[Amee]

Going by GoogleEarth there doesn't appear to be a pool at that house...although the last image update of the map is 2009 so could have added one since then...if they had the $$$s that is.

Thanks Marly.
I thought maybe the call to NBC may have been needing cleaning products, there goes that idea

 

[Even]

And the scratches under his arms and on his chest.

It was my hypothesis some time ago that it was in the bathroom.
He wouldn't have had to strangle her... he could have just held her shoulders under the water until she drowned.

And if I were police, I'd be looking for that tooth chip in the plumbing.

My thoughts exactly. Open all those ubends and outside drains. Hope they also used drain cameras to look down the whole length of the drains. I reckon you could flush an iphone - you know police are coming and then he sees her phone on the table top ,what to do, dump it down the toilet.

 

[BJsleuth]

Sorry, have very little to contribute really but am still avidly reading as this case has really got under my skin. Just when their was a mention that the plan was to make it look like suicide, hence taking the two cars to the creek. I was thinking, how could they make it look like suicide if she hadnt jumped from the bridge, then with mention of a plastic bag, perhaps that was put on after the murder to make it look like suicide and to a lesser degree to prevent hair shedding in the car. When the two cars were spotted at the bridge by someone and they decided not to leave allison's car, their plan was ruined to a degree. I don't know if this makes sense, or if you can commit suicide with a plastic bag, but that kind of would explain how the police knew straight away how she died.

A case of suicidal suffocation simulating homicide.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21361945

 

[BJsleuth]

I'm waiting on Dr Watson, as I have been troubled by the no obvious COD and had this scenario play out on my head. If GBC put his full weight onto Allisons upper back ( imagine her stomach down on bed), then this would prevent her from breathing (I think) without leaving any marks on her face or neck.
I'm leaning towards something starting in the bathroom and ending in another room.


IMO
JMO
MOO

Yes it would, that wouldn't explain the scratches on GBC unless that occurred earlier. But it's possible. I'd still call that compression asphyxia. Personally, i'm not convinced there isn't a cause of death.

 

[Opinionsgalore]

Yes it would, that wouldn't explain the scratches on GBC unless that occurred earlier. But it's possible. I'd still call that compression asphyxia. Personally, i'm not convinced there isn't a cause of death.

Compression asphyxia - thanks for that
I've been running this through my head for a while, and have my own 'maybe' scenario. Really unpleasant thing to think through....
After the girls are in bed asleep, GBC goes for a hot soak before bed. Whilst he's in the tub, Allisons goes through his phone and finds a phone call to/from TM, from earlier in the day. Allison goes into the bathroom and confronts GBC. At some point GBC gets out of tub. An argument ensues and Allison (fed up) tells GBC she's going to tell TM about the other women (?) and about how deep a financial hole he's in. GBC grabs Allison and pushes her into the bath in an attempt to try and drown her, Allison starts kicking (loud splashing noises and sounds of struggle in bathroom), claws at GBC's torso to try and stop him. Allison inhales a small amount of bathwater and struggles harder, perhaps flailing her head and breaking her tooth causing her lip to bleed. GBC drags her out of the tub, then pushes her towards the bed whilst holding her in a sleeper hold to prevent her from screaming, he then throws her onto the bed face down, GBC puts his full body weight onto her upper back, making it impossible for Allison to exhale and thus draw fresh air, GBC maintains this until Allison is dead.
At this point he notices the blood and puts a bag over her head to limit the amount of blood spill.
Fast forward. While carrying Allisons body to the back of the car ( possibly with assistance) the bag snags and comes off, GBC and other person can't grab it as their hands are full, so places Allisons body in the back of the car, where GBC then re ties the bag on, in the process, getting blood from the bag on his hand (blood on outside of car and contact blood mark in car) perhaps a drop escapes the bag before he completes tying it back onto Allisons head.


IMO
JMO
MOO

 

[BJsleuth]

I was reluctant to post that suicide self asphyxiation but the question was asked. It doesn't explain the car and how she got there and if the blood in the car is determined to be Purge Fluid then that puts her in the car after death.

 

[BJsleuth]

Compression asphyxia - thanks for that
I've been running this through my head for a while, and have my own 'maybe' scenario. Really unpleasant thing to think through....
After the girls are in bed asleep, GBC goes for a hot soak before bed. Whilst he's in the tub, Allisons goes through his phone and finds a phone call to/from TM, from earlier in the day. Allison goes into the bathroom and confronts GBC. At some point GBC gets out of tub. An argument ensues and Allison (fed up) tells GBC she's going to tell TM about the other women (?) and about how deep a financial hole he's in. GBC grabs Allison and pushes her into the bath in an attempt to try and drown her, Allison starts kicking (loud splashing noises and sounds of struggle in bathroom), claws at GBC's torso to try and stop him. Allison inhales a small amount of bathwater and struggles harder, perhaps flailing her head and breaking her tooth causing her lip to bleed. GBC drags her out of the tub, then pushes her towards the bed whilst holding her in a sleeper hold to prevent her from screaming, he then throws her onto the bed face down, GBC puts his full body weight onto her upper back, making it impossible for Allison to exhale and thus draw fresh air, GBC maintains this until Allison is dead.
At this point he notices the blood and puts a bag over her head to limit the amount of blood spill.
Fast forward. While carrying Allisons body to the back of the car ( possibly with assistance) the bag snags and comes off, GBC and other person can't grab it as their hands are full, so places Allisons body in the back of the car, where GBC then re ties the bag on, in the process, getting blood from the bag on his hand (blood on outside of car and contact blood mark in car) perhaps a drop escapes the bag before he completes tying it back onto Allisons head.


IMO
JMO
MOO

Yeah you may be right. To be honest with you, if it were me and I discovered that he was seeing her again after counselling and everything, then i'd be furious. I can't say i'd react rationally if that happened to me. I'd be yelling!

 

[BJsleuth]

I guess forensics would be able to analyse the water found in the lungs. If it contains chloride and (fluoride I think that is now in brissie water ?) then the drowning didn't occur in the river.

Fluoride is present in the body through eating certain food such as broccoli and through drinking tea, so it may not be reliable. Also, chlorine evaporates quickly and some is naturally present in the blood so that one won't give any indication unless the victim is found immediately. However, as Dr Watson point out, the creek is muddy so there would be some mud present in the lung if it happened at the creek, not so if it was tap or tank water.

 

[CJ60]

Sorry, so many pages that I can't catch up tonight.

But sunflowers at the bridge - I thought of planting something, but the council workers would poison or whippersnip it. What about a native tree, with permission from the council?

And I did check out the 'support GBC Fb page!' whoever started that dropped a clanger - it sort of backfired methinks! wonder how long it will last?

 

[jubillee]

The defence is probably going to go for a "stranger did it defence" but there has been no mention of sexual assault. Most(not all I know) times that is the reason behind a stranger type murder. What reason are they going to come up with for a random murder like that

 

[BJsleuth]

The defence is probably going to go for a "stranger did it defence" but there has been no mention of sexual assault. Most(not all I know) times that is the reason behind a stranger type murder. What reason are they going to come up with for a random murder like that

Since you raised it. I had thought, and this is awful that perhaps this is where the blood came from, that a sexual assault had been imitated but the pants being fully on isn't usual in those instances and since the pants were on, not say, around the knees or such, if there were any signs of that sort of assault with the pants pulled up, then it would indicate an intimate relationship with the attacker.

 

[Berry]

Just thinking this comment and the one quoted through again. Could it have been a plastic bag over her head fastened with lock ties around her neck. In which case COD would be strangulation or suffocation whichever happened first?

YES could be....like I said here:
POST: # 826
Quote:
Originally Posted by parkerp
Thanks for replying to the other poster who asked.
I've been told suffocation, rather than strangulation & what was used to do that was found with her.

was it a plastic bag? tied on still?

 

[YoureNicked]

From what I have heard, he's been giving himself all the attention he needs, all while being "under observation". Eew!

Yes, narcissists are huge on the 'self-pleasuring'...several times a day...and are happy to talk about it. Sex-drive is huge but they are great at withholding from their primary partner whom they use as a vent for their own deep self-loathing. And when they are with a female partner they like to 'do it from behind' as it's less intimate.

But self-pleasuring whilst being observed...Eew, indeed!

 

[Opinionsgalore]

Yes, narcissists are huge on the 'self-pleasuring'...several times a day...and are happy to talk about it. Sex-drive is huge but they are great at withholding from their primary partner whom they use as a vent for their own deep self-loathing. And when they are with a female partner they like to 'do it from behind' as it's less intimate.

But self-pleasuring whilst being observed...Eew, indeed!

NPD's like attention especially during sex, so will leave windows open etc. (they like the idea of others being able to hear how good they are)
I'm not that surprised, it's probably been a fantasy of his. Interestingly during sex NPD's will fantasise about themselves (imagining how attractive they are and how their good looks, sexual prowess etc is turning their partner on) opposed to fantasising that their sexual partner is someone else.


IMO
JMO
MOO

 

[Elspeth]

The defence is probably going to go for a "stranger did it defence" but there has been no mention of sexual assault. Most(not all I know) times that is the reason behind a stranger type murder. What reason are they going to come up with for a random murder like that

I am uncertain what the defence will come up with either Jubilee but feel they will be able to place a lot of doubt on much of the evidence so far...

eg just the fact GBC was looking up self-incrimination the night before could very easily explained by his defence that it was because of his dire financial situation and he was simply looking up self incrimination in Bankruptcy.. This is only one area in the evidence so far they *could* prove differently to the DPP...moo...