NO BAIL! Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 -#29

[Sheerluck Holmes]

So presumedly from this article TM spoke to the police before they searched the BC's home and were in possession of computers (and ABC's journal) ?

Am I right my interpretation?


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Yes I would agree with you on this, not sure about the journal though, as far as I know it hasnt been reported when they actually had possession of this.

 

[mouse detective]

I have a story to tell which I want you to ponder. Someone I know had an affair with a married man - it lasted about 9 months before his wife found out.

About a month later he tried to make contact with my friend but she refused to get involved. He used every excuse under the sun to have to see her but she flatly refused and forced him to deal with her work colleague if he required anything relating to their common business dealings.

After 3 months of this the wife made contact with my friend and accused her of continuing to see her husband which of course she denied. The wife was highly irrational and not listening - the phone went silent.

The next moment the husband called her and said she should leave her office - his wife is very irrational and was coming to confront her. My friend didn't know what to do - leave or stay in the office. She decided to leave and as she was leaving the wife was approaching and she attacked her, punching her, pulling her hair and then jammed her keys into her head - my friend's head was bleeding like crazy and she needed several stitches in the wound. The police were called and a complaint was lodged but my friend dropped the charges.

Now I ask you - had my friend died as a result of that attack, how do you think the media would have portrayed the wife, the husband and my friend?

 

[marlywings]

I'll try this again...HeartRuledHead...do you know for a fact TM isn't involved in any way with the murder??...

Or any other members...do any of you know if she's been crossed off the list by police??

 

[Curiousasacat]

I am calm.

I certainly to have sympathy for Allison's poor family. I can only imagine how heart broken they are and how shattered their lives now are.

I mean no disrespect to Allison's memory nor her family by standing on support of TM's innocence in Allison's murder.

I wasn't defending the affair, just saying simply and truly that they happen. It's a regrettable fact of life.

I am saying allowing your heart to rule your head is a question of morals but it does not make you a criminally minded person who could be responsible or even support someone else who commits murder. As some have indicated in this thread.

I do not believe for one moment that TM had any idea that GBC would ever be capable of such a awful act.


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Ok, I apologize for this abrupt question. If you are still here HRH do you know if she has an alibi for that evening???

 

[Keentoknow]

So presumedly from this article TM spoke to the police before they searched the BC's home and were in possession of computers (and ABC's journal) ?

Am I right my interpretation?


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H Heart.
Would you remember the date that TM gave her first statement to police.

I remember seeing her in a CIB car before Allison was found. Cannot find where it states that FM phoned police....I am sure it was in the same paper. Thanks

 

[Straitfan]

Poignant and timely post. This started off as a thread about a crime and a victim. The line that separated sleuthing the crime, and making it personal, as seems to be on any Aussie forum (I’m on a few), disappeared threads ago.


There is still much more to be discussed about the crime.

For those who don’t like the opposite view (and I don’t necessarily take it in this case), need to look at form an analytical point of view. Until something is proven, you have to test your hypothesis (best guess). The devils advocate approach continually tests what you know, what you think and what you want to know more about. You need to ask, how else could it have happened? In this case, I cant see any other option but the accused. There are so many holes in his story that you cant believe otherwise. And i am with the majority here in thinking this.

This is not to say you cant have an opinion without getting shot down. Counter arguing an opinion is a much more measured and appropriate approach, than taking the emotive stance and blasting others for sharing that view.

TM is a fool and guilty of adultery, and nothing more at this stage.
As for EBC not visiting her son (assumed), she may have her whole family ripped apart and be completely free of any knowledge. If this is the case, I do feel for her. if not, well that’s another thought.

This site is about the crime and the victim, nothing more.

The talk of facebook, 7 page spreads in the news, people spotting for salacious purposes denigrates the basis for what this site is set up for.

I hope and pray that her family, especially her kids never have to read any of these threads and are kept away from it.

The police have a job and I think are doing he best they can.

Great post and while it is about the crime and the victim given human nature, think it is sometimes hard to seperate one's self from the matters which contributed to the crime... Not just on Aussie forms, happens all the time on the US crimes.

 

[Sheerluck Holmes]

So presumedly from this article TM spoke to the police before they searched the BC's home and were in possession of computers (and ABC's journal) ?

Am I right my interpretation?


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Is there something relevant to this question that you know.

 

[Strangeworld]

I have a story to tell which I want you to ponder. Someone I know had an affair with a married man - it lasted about 9 months before his wife found out.

About a month later he tried to make contact with my friend but she refused to get involved. He used every excuse under the sun to have to see her but she flatly refused and forced him to deal with her work colleague if he required anything relating to their common business dealings.

After 3 months of this the wife made contact with my friend and accused her of continuing to see her husband which of course she denied. The wife was highly irrational and not listening - the phone went silent.

The next moment the husband called her and said she should leave her office - his wife is very irrational and was coming to confront her. My friend didn't know what to do - leave or stay in the office. She decided to leave and as she was leaving the wife was approaching and she attacked her, punching her, pulling her hair and then jammed her keys into her head - my friend's head was bleeding like crazy and she needed several stitches in the wound. The police were called and a complaint was lodged but my friend dropped the charges.

Now I ask you - had my friend died as a result of that attack, how do you think the media would have portrayed the wife, the husband and my friend?

That is a truly awful story for everyone involved. Must have been very scary. No level of violence should be condoned, regardless of any sense of revenge or anger. The media would probably love it because of the drama and level of discussion it would generate.

I hope your friend has recovered well. Just out of curiosity, did your friend know she was dating a married man - if so, can you shed any light on why she made this decision? Understand if that's too much info to share. I'm really curious as to why some women (and men) make this conscious choice - it just bamboozles me. I've heard the justification that you can't help who you love, it just happened, etc, but that just seems like emotional immaturity to me - most of us experience strong feelings (good and bad) at one point or another, but most can rationalise before acting on these, particularly if drawn out over an extended period of time. Though it doesn't sound like the wife had that ability to rationalise!

 

[Sheerluck Holmes]

H Heart.
Would you remember the date that TM gave her first statement to police.

I remember seeing her in a CIB car before Allison was found. Cannot find where it states that FM phoned police....I am sure it was in the same paper. Thanks

As the link suggests she first spoke to Police on 25 April, cant ever remember reading that TM had phone police.

 

[HeartRuledHead]

The only thing I know that isn't already public knowledge regarding Toni has nothing to do with the affair with GBC nor the murder of ABC.

I am confident the police thought to ask of her whereabouts on the night.


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[Mothergoose]

I think it is easy to want to "blame" someone for affairs. It is true that each had an obligation or commitment to their current partners and families. Both were married, both had kids.

I was devastated when my ex was having an affair. I remember leaving my kids in bed one night when I drove out to catch them at it! I remember the pain and guilt that I felt in leaving my kids to do that (I've never done that before or since), but I needed to know.

My ex and his current wife fell in love at a work conference. However, I now reflect on what has happened and realise that they are far better suited to each other. I loved him very deeply, and I think he still loves me, but more like a sister. They have been together 20 years, and no one that I know thinks she is a "better" person, far from it - most of his family and mine can't stand her. She is just a better match for him. I am pleased for him now. I would not have wanted him to stay with me and be unfulfilled. I agree that sometimes when people fall in love it is almost impossible to let it go, especially if it fills a hole in you that you can't even explain. My ex tells me that it is not perfect, but he cannot be without her. They are two halves of a whole. He didn't feel that with me. I understand it completely. The fallout for the kids was excruciating, but they would have lived with a cranky and difficult father if he had stayed. Who knows how much worse that would have been.

My ex stayed in the house (separate rooms) for a year because his lawyer advised him to do so (he didn't want to lose ANY money and didn't want to have to pay maintenance). I finally convinced him to leave and live with his girlfriend. He wanted his cake and wanted to eat it too so I had to issue an ultimatum (glad mine didn't result in a murder!). He is also a little bit narcissistic (although nothing like GBC) so money was a big issue for him. He saw all our money and assets as his. I think that is the problem for GBC too, however, half of nothing is nothing. He was probably more worried about having ALL of the debt.

I have sympathy for TM. I'm sure she is riddled with guilt, especially if she DID issue an ultimatum, which by the way, I would think is NATURAL. Anybody would look for some end to a clandestine situation - it is very uncomfortable. Not safe for the party who is waiting. She will be her own punishment...she will not easily forgive herself.

Your story touched me. You are indeed a strong individual with great empathy and compassion.

 

[Straitfan]

The only thing I know that isn't already public knowledge regarding Toni has nothing to do with the affair with GBC nor the murder of ABC.

I am confident the police thought to ask of her whereabouts on the night.


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True and given the number of times she meet with them I would hope they have verfied cell phone records, etc.

 

[Strangeworld]

As the link suggests she first spoke to Police on 25 April, cant ever remember reading that TM had phone police.

It doesn't actually say that this was the first time they spoke to her. I'm really curious if there was a previous meeting between TM and the police, or some sort of communication.

 

[LauraMars]

So presumedly from this article TM spoke to the police before they searched the BC's home and were in possession of computers (and ABC's journal) ?

Am I right my interpretation?


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I would imagine that the police found Allison's journal very early on in the piece, possibly the first day, when the house was declared a crime scene (20th April?), unless it was hidden out of the home.

It's possible Allison may have hidden the journal in her home, to keep Gerard's prying eyes off it (even though the sketch he apparently drew of Toni's house was in the journal), but I would think the police went over their house with a fine tooth comb from day one, so my bet is that's when they would have found the journal.

 

[LauraMars]

Also, many state the affair was a well known local fact, so I imagine the first day, the police would have been told about Toni and Gerard's affair.

 

[Keentoknow]

As the link suggests she first spoke to Police on 25 April, cant ever remember reading that TM had phone police.

She must have rolled over on GBC then.

 

[brookster]

I have spent days reading through these forums.

First and foremost I am devastated for the three girls who lost their mother at the hands of presumably their own father.

My thoughts are with Allison's family. I hope they find the strength they need to try and work through this unforgivable crime!

---
Do you all think Allison knew what he was capable of? Of course not! So tell me... How could Toni?

Most people in life like to see the best in people, especially people we love. I am bemused at the fingers that have been pointed at Toni who is a victim here!

She foolishly fell in love with a married man, sadly it happens every day. The heart wants what it wants and sometimes it rules the head.

It frustrates me to read comments like "she shouldn't have 'gone after' a married man" how do know that she was not the one pursued - he was her boss, he had the position of power. Him sleazing on to her seems more plausible given cassinova was juggling a wife and 3 lovers!

It frustrates me that people say she "demanded" that he leave his wife. When? Just because he e-mailed her saying he made her a commitment to leave his wife by a certain date doesn't mean she demanded it - it seems more likely that she was sick of sneaking around and was going to put an end to it and he encouraged her to keep up the affair promising that he will leave his wife. It's a story been told thousands of times before!

It frustrates me that people comment on her appearance as if the affair would be more acceptable if the photos of her released by the media were more flattering it would some how be ok? She is absolutely beautiful in person.

No one but she knows why she fell in love with a married man - most of make mistakes of the heart but that doesn't mean she had any idea it would end this way.

She is a victim. Her life will never be the same again. She could have been the one who was killed if he could work out away to cash in on her demise!

He is a gutless man fuelled by greed! He preys on people to take advantage of. Toni is just one more on a long list of people who is hurting due to the actions of this spineless snake!



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HeartRH, it is good to have another perspective thrown at us to freshen things up a bit. You are right on so many points!

I am sure most would agree that from TM's perspective, she would probably never have seen this coming, she might have considered it to be just a 'normal, everyday' affair, she might be in huge shock, be deeply hurt, have a ruined reputation, be completely remorseful, might feel she was tragically unlucky to have chosen the wrong guy to have an affair with, and be filled with enormous self pity, heartbroken over someone she loved and lost, angered at him for thinking this was a solution, humiliated, amongst many other deep painful emotions that would scar a soul for eternity. IMHO of course...

ALL these emotions would be normal and she'd be forgiven for feeling this. I'm sure no-one would want to deny her of grief. HOWEVER, no matter how real these feelings are FOR HER, the facts are they ARE all at least in part a result of her being a KEY player in a long-standing RISKY game that was being played - she herself GAMBLING on real people's lives/emotions/minds. As long as she kept playing, her role would not have been a positive one for Allison nor the girls- no matter how the game would end. She mightn't have caused the tragedy, but she certainly was enough of a part of the big picture leading up to it for Allisons' supporters here to lack much sympathy for her.

Here we focus on grief and justice for Allison and her family - the true victims - helpless victims - who could NOT have made a difference, no matter how much love and goodwill they had. TM could have made a difference - imo. TM was not helpless - imo. She was playing with fire.

The murderer/s NEED to take full accountability with NO right to BLAME others for the EVIL act itself. ALL other players do still need to take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for THEIR own part that lead up to it. TM is not immune to this even if she didn't accurately predict the dire consequences of her actions.

Let's give her benefit of the doubt - perhaps she didn't push him too hard or give an ultimatum, perhaps it was an innocent affair and she asked him calmly, politely and ever so patiently to sort things out as soon as he was able. Even this - simply asking a man to confront/deal with his problems once too many times, could be enough to push him over. Everyone has their breaking point (that they are individually responsible for controlling!) and GBC was probably close to his for a while. TM might not have known his limit and certainly not his potential! It can be a shock to realise the straw you loaded onto the camels back might have been the final one. OMG, it was just an insignificant little straw!! Always be accountable for your straw (every word and action).

Her next move, after the tragedy, COULD've been to fight tooth and nail to find Allison, for justice for Allison - from DAY 1- and perhaps then we'd have shown more sympathy. Perhaps she did... hopefully she still is - we will find out for sure. There is plenty of opportunity for POSITIVITY to come out of this great loss - lets hope she takes full advantage of it. Financial support for the girls might be a start. She then might be considered to be on OUR team - imo.

Morals of all this:
* Be very careful what you wish for - especially with a greedy/lustful heart!
* Don't play with fire!

This is all IMHO and MOO - definitely moo.

 

[Keentoknow]

I would imagine that the police found Allison's journal very early on in the piece, possibly the first day, when the house was declared a crime scene (20th April?), unless it was hidden out of the home.

It's possible Allison may have hidden the journal in her home, to keep Gerard's prying eyes off it (even though the sketch he apparently drew of Toni's house was in the journal), but I would think the police went over their house with a fine tooth comb from day one, so my bet is that's when they would have found the journal.

I am sure that the drawing would not be for GBC so that he could go and feed her TMs cat.

 

[HeartRuledHead]

Also, many state the affair was a well known local fact, so I imagine the first day, the police would have been told about Toni and Gerard's affair.

That's a point. The truth is I don't know when TM came forward. I hope that it was early, and I sincerely hope she put Allison's safety (whilst assumed missing) before her own reputation.

Trust me despite reports not EVERYONE was well aware she was having an affair with a married man.


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[Mothergoose]

Hypothetically, what some would like to say to 'other woman' here is:
This affair was alleged to have been going on since 2008. He was a married man. You had a choice. Pursuer/pursued irrelevant. You both engaged in this relationship of convenience not for a few weeks, or months, but for the past 4 years. Allegedly, you both associated in public with disregard for his marriage or the feelings of his wife and family. There was no respect for Allison. You now find yourself associated with the alleged murderer - who was also philandering on you - a devastating situation you would rather not be in. But, the mother of 3 little children has been murdered, her life tragically ended at the hands of her alleged murderer. Her little girls will not have their mother to help raise them or be there for the significant events in their lives. The best you can do now is assist QPolice to the best of your ability. You may redeem yourself to some degree in the eyes of the some. My opinion only, based on MSM, not fact.

I don't want to say anything to TM. I think she is suffering with her own demons and will for a long time. I think she fell in love with GBC and that was her weakness. A lawyer once said to me "Falling in love is like being in a state of temporary insanity". "Once it happens you are like a moth to a flame". She had poor judgement and got sucked in. Her life will never be the same IMO and don't forget she has her own children and parents to deal with.Victim or not she is paying a big price for her mistake.