NO BAIL! Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 -#30

[Opinionsgalore]

If I were a defence lawyer, trying the Stillnox defence, I would be saying that my client had taken the drug, and I would have no idea if his father had taken it too. And maybe the father DOES have full recollection, which is why he refuses to cooperate with the QPS? But the point, from the defence point of view, would be that GBC would have been operating under the effects of the drug.

Pure hypothesis, of course, but it has been documented, and there is even precedence in court.

The guilt or otherwise of another party is currently not in question, in legal terms as far as I know (no other arrests have been made) and even if it were, the Stillnox defence may still apply to GBC's alleged actions that night.

Just a possibility - I hope they don't try that one. But if they do, as I mentioned above, then ALL proof of what GBC is alleged to have done becomes irrelevant if the Stillnox effects are accepted by the court.....

Personally, I have to say that the adverse effects of Stillnox have probably been hyped out of all proportion by the media, to the point where is have become a very convenient drug with extremely convenient side effects. But that's just cynical old moi....!

Is Stillnox a short term relaxant (can you clarify), that it induces sleep for 4 hours, but does not maintain sleep ? In cases where the Stillnox claims have been used, in what period of time were they claiming the 'Stillnox effect' ? Within the first 4 hours or longer ?


This is MOO.

 

[mouse detective]

Must have both have been on Stilnox. Will have to show a doctor's referral though. Hard to do retrospectively.

I can't believe how many families share drugs especially sedatives and pain relief. Might be that the senior people get them prescribed and give to the younger ones because they can get them cheaper.

 

[grannie]

I think she died accidentally in the apartment (cadaver dog identified smell behind sofa in front of a window) while the parents dined in the resort restaurant. Police believe kids had been drugged to make them sleep through. A cover up followed and police have not been able to prove who did it, although they are pretty certain of what happened. Mobile phones were triangulated to areas different to where the parents said they were, etc, etc.

Toxicology tests (on hair found in the app and Kate's clothes) showed no evidence that Maddie had taken drugs in the past eight months. The twins were also tested for drugs and no traces of any were recorded.

 

[alicat]

he reminds me of those young stupid mothers who stroll through Kmart with their wee babies in a pram...steal all the crap they can get their grubby little paws on, then mosey on out of the store, whilst their baby sits on all the evidence!!!
this is the image I see when I imagine him loading up the back of the SUV with kids toys....

you must have to be an incredibly top notch piece of crap to do something like this...it is pretty hard to imagine a wife murderer could still make you shudder with revulsion over something other than his horrendous crime of murder, but this guy does it for me.......SHUDDER

When my daughter started walking she used to put objects of interest into her nappy bag, which was attached to the pram.

Most things I noticed and put back on the shelf, but once she placed two little present bows in it and another time a pack of three bibs in it! I even showes my bag walking out of Kmart and the woman smiled and said goodbye. When I got home I could not believe it! I was so embarrassed!

 

[DrWatson]

Is Stillnox a short term relaxant (can you clarify), that it induces sleep for 4 hours, but does not maintain sleep ? In cases where the Stillnox claims have been used, in what period of time were they claiming the 'Stillnox effect' ? Within the first 4 hours or longer ?

Check out:

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zolpidem"]Zolpidem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

It lasts for a few hours, but there have been cases of alleged (and court-accepted) activity while under the influence of Stillnox, including sleep-driving, bizarre actions, rape, and even falling off a cliff.

It has even been used, routinely, for sportspeople under medical supervision - high levels of physical activity during the training day, then Stillnox at night to ensure a few hours of deep sleep with no hangover effect. I think it was even in our local Sunday papers here yesterday.

But its link to, and an excuse for, criminal behaviour while under its influence is one that I personally find just that bit too convenient and opportunistic, and possibly something dreamed up by lawyers that has gradually become an accepted "thing". As I said - I remain cynical about this.

But my cynicism wouldn't stop GBC's defence team from trying it on.....

 

[Aunty]

Gerard Baden-Clay's family want this man to help the accused killer. First, he has to meet him

What an evil look he has:what:

 

[alicat]

Those toys neatly aligned have been placed in the car after the car was last driven, otherwise the crates would have moved back-forward-side-to-side once you turn one corner or roundabout (unless police aligned them for the photo, but I don't think they would do that). IMO.

Perhaps when doing their roundabout testing they had similar toys in the back of the car and were seeing in the toys/crates would stay in place.

To put it nicely, if I had these in the back of the car they would be constantly bumping and sliding and p*ssing me off everytine I went around another corner!

 

[grannie]

If a patient is prescribed a mind altering medication (which is recorded in Medicare database with the date of service, rendering provider id/number, etc), and the patient purchases that medication (recorded in PBS database with dates and other details), it does not imply with full certainty that the patient actually administers the drug. He could give it to his cat or sell to a local junkie, whatever. The point is, one has to pass relevant tests to confirm the use of the medication. Statistically, about 20% of all prescribed medications do not reach (out) patients.

 

[Kruger]

friends in high places i guess? it must be costing someone thousands!

follow the money....who is losing out big time with a GBC conviction????

couple of hundred K here, few hundred K there....

If GBC is acquitted he can claim the cash???? and the buddies get paid maybe???

...... who gets paid???

Who put up the surety for bail......I note one of them was head of finance and infrastructure of a large church organisation....

follow the money....

moo

 

[Fuskier]

New article in CM
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/baden-clays-lawyer-barred/story-e6freoof-1226413880866...

...ACCUSED wife killer Gerard Baden-Clay is bringing in celebrity lawyer Chris Nyst as a legal adviser as he steps up the fight for his innocence...

...Baden-Clay, who has been charged with murdering his wife and interfering with her corpse, was last month refused bail in the Supreme Court. He could reapply for bail but only if his legal circumstances changed.

Is it possible that this alleged behaviour by the B C family is an extension of earlier patterns around this son? Is it possible that he can do no wrong? Is it possible that he can even murder someone and his family will defend and protect him from consequences? The B C family allegedly have been busy behind the scenes organizing more legal eagles to defend their son.

This is quoted in MSM:http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/baden-clays-lawyer-barred/story-e6freoof-1226413880866

'...It is understood Baden-Clay is bringing in three legal advisers - Mr Mahony, Mr Nyst and a third unnamed lawyer - to bolster his defence team. Mr Nyst is believed to have been approached by Baden-Clay's family...'

How are they going to finance all of these Lawyers?

Are they now planning a 'film' about it to make millions? Hypothetically, has this been discussed with the Lawyers? future financial gains?

Dealing with people who may believe that they are above The Law is never easy.

We have Laws and Courts of Law in this country to call them to account. I am hoping that Criminal Law proceedings can bring Justice and put a stop to this family, hypothetically,using this murder to 'make money' at some time in the future. A Crime has been committed. The charges are serious. They are about the killing of Allison Baden-Clay who was murdered in the prime of her life.

The Police investigation yeilded evidence and subsequently charged the alleged murderer accordingly within The Law.

Surely proving 'beyond reasonable doubt' is not reduced to being just 'a game' about the guilt or innocence depending upon the Lawyers one has acquired? A Jury of 12 selected men and women are considered to represent the average, reasonable person in the community. This assumes an average level of education, intelligence, housing, income, average decent, law abiding life, etc.

Given that The Law is an adversarial process, does it seem unfair that these average, reasonable people are pitted against several highly educated, highly trained Legal Eagles? It seems to be an unequal match right from the start. Let us hope that the Prosecuting side is matched equally to prevent this kind of disadvantage within the legal system itself. I imagine that the 'admisability of evidence' will be crucial in this case.

I hope that these 12 jurors will be educated by The Court, beforehand, about what constitutes 'reasonable doubt' and when circumstantial evidence points beyond reasonable doubt.

It is not show time. This is our Criminal Legal system in action.

It is not hard to speculate about how 'powerless' Allison may have felt within a family where allegedly the son can do no wrong. Hypothetically, if this happened to TM or any other female, we would see similar behaviour to defend and protect one who can allegedly do no wrong. If found not guilty, he can claim the Insurance and Superannuation etc. Hypothetically, we can imagine that they might sue the Police and Government for wrongful arrest and gain a huge payout in the millions, make a film out of it, write books and generate huge financial gains from it all. Then historically the name would still be famous with added extras of how clever they all were. My opinion only, not fact.

 

[alicat]

Yes, we don't know where they were, but FaceTime only works with wi-fi, hence both had to be either at home or where a free wi-fi spot is, which are not many around Brisbane suburbs (except McDonalds).

How about the library? I thought they offered WiFi although don't know what distance you have to be to use it and also if it still works when the library is closed.

 

[DrWatson]

How about the library? I thought they offered WiFi although don't know what distance you have to be to use it and also if it still works when the library is closed.

Yup - good point - I forgot the library. That would be closer, but I doubt that their wifi would be operating outside opening hours. And you need a library number and login ID to log onto their wifi. Which would also leave a log. Also, even if it were to be operating, I would think you'd need to be underneath it in that carpark to get any coverage. But I haven't checked that.

 

[OakingtonAve]

What an evil look he has:what:

Aint no amount of Botox gonna fix THAT mug...lol:what:

 

[marlywings]

This alleged behaviour by the B C family may be an extension of earlier patterns around this son. Is it possible that they see he can do no wrong? Is it possible that he can even murder someone and his family will defend and protect him from consequences? The B C family have been busy behind the scenes organizing more legal eagles to defend their son.
This is quoted in MSM:http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/baden-clays-lawyer-barred/story-e6freoof-1226413880866

'...It is understood Baden-Clay is bringing in three legal advisers - Mr Mahony, Mr Nyst and a third unnamed lawyer - to bolster his defence team. Mr Nyst is believed to have been approached by Baden-Clay's family...'

How are they going to finance all of these Lawyers?

Are they now planning a 'film' about it to make millions? Hypothetically, has this been discussed with the Lawyers? Have they been promised a sizeable share/reward?

Dealing with people who may believe that they are above The Law is never easy.

Thank God we have Laws and Courts of Law in this country that can call them to account. I am hoping that Criminal Law proceedings can bring Justice and put a stop to (hypothetically) this family using this murder to 'make money' at some time in the future. A Crime has been committed. The charges are serious. They are about the killing of Allison Baden-Clay who was murdered in the prime of her life.

The Police investigation yeilded evidence, then they charged the alleged murderer accordingly within The Law.

Surely proving 'beyond reasonable doubt' is not just 'a game' about the guilt or innocence depending upon the Lawyers one has acquired? A Jury is a group of 12 selected men and women who are considered to be average, reasonable people in the community.

Utilising several highly educated, highly trained Legal Eagles against the average, reasonable person is surely unfair? It seems to be an unequal match right from the start. Is The Law and the Media looking at this and questioning it?

It is not show time.
Considering the metaphorical aspects of their alleged behaviour on an ever increasing grand scale, one can speculate about 'grandiosity' now and about how 'powerless' Allison may have felt.

I agree Fuskier re what appears to be "unfairness/unequal match"....it seems downright morally wrong also.

I don't know about anyone else, but I only have to look at the amount of criminals in prisons across Australia who all thought of themselves as being smarter than the law & above the law. This tells me the "12 selected men and women who are considered to be average, reasonable people in the community" are indeed intelligent enough to see right through any games these "highly educated, highly trained Legal Eagles" like to play.

 

[ollijack]

My God, I just read about the new lawyer.....that family is bloody amazing....how sleazy is all this.....

 

[Bayside]

I honestly doubt Mahoney will want to work with someone else. I think this is the initial step to get rid of Mahoney and engage Nyst (probably in exchange for some movie rights?). IMO.

That is what I thought too when I read about it.

 

[Bayside]

My God, I just read about the new lawyer.....that family is bloody amazing....how sleazy is all this.....

Maybe they can get a two for one deal when another member of the BC Clan gets arrested lol.

 

[Aunty]

If I were a defence lawyer, trying the Stillnox defence, I would be saying that my client had taken the drug, and I would have no idea if his father had taken it too. And maybe the father DOES have full recollection, which is why he refuses to cooperate with the QPS? But the point, from the defence point of view, would be that GBC would have been operating under the effects of the drug.

Pure hypothesis, of course, but it has been documented, and there is even precedence in court.

The guilt or otherwise of another party is currently not in question, in legal terms as far as I know (no other arrests have been made) and even if it were, the Stillnox defence may still apply to GBC's alleged actions that night.

Just a possibility - I hope they don't try that one. But if they do, as I mentioned above, then ALL proof of what GBC is alleged to have done becomes irrelevant if the Stillnox effects are accepted by the court.....

Personally, I have to say that the adverse effects of Stillnox have probably been hyped out of all proportion by the media, to the point where is have become a very convenient drug with extremely convenient side effects. But that's just cynical old moi....!

Personally, I disagree with your last statement , that Stillnox has been hyped up by the media as a very convenient drug "as a defense"
The media links you posted don't support your last paragraph. ( highlighted)

I am sure GBCs defense team are Planning on using this defense. :fence:
The only problem will be proving it was prescribed and available to GBC and was also taken by him that evening. ( I wonder who prescribed it? A local doctor maybe? )

Anyway, Good Post Dr Watson.
This should help the Defense Team if they are reading.
"Stillnox Defense " and "precedent"
You have been very thorough. :jail:

 

[marlywings]

Maybe they can get a two for one deal when another member of the BC Clan gets arrested lol.

Haha...an Aussie version of the movie Dumb & Dumber...

Really wanted to say Stupid & Stupider...but that's not a word...lol.

 

[Rational]

If I were a defence lawyer, trying the Stillnox defence, I would be saying that my client had taken the drug, and I would have no idea if his father had taken it too. And maybe the father DOES have full recollection, which is why he refuses to cooperate with the QPS? But the point, from the defence point of view, would be that GBC would have been operating under the effects of the drug.

Pure hypothesis, of course, but it has been documented, and there is even precedence in court.

The guilt or otherwise of another party is currently not in question, in legal terms as far as I know (no other arrests have been made) and even if it were, the Stillnox defence may still apply to GBC's alleged actions that night.

Just a possibility - I hope they don't try that one. But if they do, as I mentioned above, then ALL proof of what GBC is alleged to have done becomes irrelevant if the Stillnox effects are accepted by the court.....

Personally, I have to say that the adverse effects of Stillnox have probably been hyped out of all proportion by the media, to the point where is have become a very convenient drug with extremely convenient side effects. But that's just cynical old moi....!

Good morning everyone, I am back from a flu induced absence.

Dr Watson I like your postscript or byline!

As for the Stillnox defence, I agree it is a possibility but doctors have become very careful what they prescribe for patients and there are certainly other alternatives available. They also would have to prove that he and or his father had access to them and how? Even if it was from a friend , they would have to provide a witness statement and again the doctor who prescribed it also. I doubt somehow that he had access at all, or at least a very strong hope?

As for Mr Nyst, I am not surprised the he has jumped on the bandwagon given his history, but I agree with posters above that I doubt Mr Mahoney would have him on a team. What I find incredulous is that Nyst and apparently a number of other lawyers have been going to Wacol and wonder why they cannot just speak to GBC, you would think they know the rules unless it's more about self promotion and smelling a story than about representing an alleged murderer.

We also had some posters on here who said they were crime writers, I wonder if this could be somehow linked?? Haven't heard from them for awhile!!?

All just my Monday morning musings after two days in bed coughing and spluttering, and all IMOO.