No Honor Among Thieves

[madeleine]

His claims to faith seem a bit flimsy, don't they?

Hey maybe I just don't understand it.Maybe he is stronger than I think.But I KNOW I would be VERY angry with God after losing two daughters and a wife.And because of how it happened,a horrible disease and a brutal murder.
Maybe some people are lucky and find a better therapy in this religious stuff.If I don't understand it doesn't mean it can't happen.I just think it happened too soon here,january?Just a few days after the murder.Not even meds kick in so soon if you know what I mean.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Hey maybe I just don't understand it.Maybe he is stronger than I think.But I KNOW I would be VERY angry with God after losing two daughters and a wife.And because of how it happened,a horrible disease and a brutal murder.
Maybe some people are lucky and find a better therapy in this religious stuff.If I don't understand it doesn't mean it can't happen.I just think it happened too soon here,january?Just a few days after the murder.Not even meds kick in so soon if you know what I mean.

Madeleine, there is nothing wrong with your understanding. It's common for men of faith to blame God when their children are taken too soon. They were unable to protect that child so God should have done it for them (He is the Ultimate Father). Devastation sums up the feeling the first time a child is taken but words have not been invented that would describe the second child's death. And at the hands of a murderer????? JR would still be foaming at the mouth for the blood of this person or small foreign faction. Forgiveness or even acceptance would not have come as quickly or easily as what we've seen in JR.

 

[madeleine]

Madeleine, there is nothing wrong with your understanding. It's common for men of faith to blame God when their children are taken too soon. They were unable to protect that child so God should have done it for them (He is the Ultimate Father). Devastation sums up the feeling the first time a child is taken but words have not been invented that would describe the second child's death. And at the hands of a murderer????? JR would still be foaming at the mouth for the blood of this person or small foreign faction. Forgiveness or even acceptance would not have come as quickly or easily as what we've seen in JR.

This is one of the reasons I believe that if IDI he suspects who it was and why it was done.All the "we forgive" and "we need to go on" talk?Maybe it's a subtle message "hey,we won't hunt you down.we know but we'll keep our mouths shut for your sake and ours".

Okay let's look at it different.A vicious killer brutally murdered your baby.It's okay if you wanna forgive him,be my guest.BUT what message is this anyway.hey it's okay if you murdered my baby,you don't have to feel guilty (even if sometimes guilt makes a killer confess),you're forgiven,hey ,do it again !

They said they didn't know anyone so evil.I guess this should have been the perfect time for digging and checking,you never know,maybe someone close IS that evil.

I said the other day that I don't think they really suspected FW,LHP,Santa,etc.Cause if my baby died and I'd think that it was X (even if 0,0001%)?I'd camp outside that suspect's house and watch him 24/24 MYSELF.

 

[joeskidbeck]

This is one of the reasons I believe that if IDI he suspects who it was and why it was done.All the "we forgive" and "we need to go on" talk?Maybe it's a subtle message "hey,we won't hunt you down.we know but we'll keep our mouths shut for your sake and ours".

Okay let's look at it different.A vicious killer brutally murdered your baby.It's okay if you wanna forgive him,be my guest.BUT what message is this anyway.hey it's okay if you murdered my baby,you don't have to feel guilty (even if sometimes guilt makes a killer confess),you're forgiven,hey ,do it again !

They said they didn't know anyone so evil.I guess this should have been the perfect time for digging and checking,you never know,maybe someone close IS that evil.

I said the other day that I don't think they really suspected FW,LHP,Santa,etc.Cause if my baby died and I'd think that it was X (even if 0,0001%)?I'd camp outside that suspect's house and watch him 24/24 MYSELF.

Beyond everything else, I can't forget his reaction when JMK was arrested. How he knew how it felt to be tried by the media. Give me a flippen break!
He knew that had nothing to do with JB's death. Where was his outrage? There has never been a human born that would not have wanted to strangle JMK with his bare hands for what he supposedly did. But not JR. The one time he should have been acting for the cameras, he just couldn't do it. I have to wonder if it's because he didn't have to anymore because Patsy wasn't around to see it?

 

[madeleine]

Beyond everything else, I can't forget his reaction when JMK was arrested. How he knew how it felt to be tried by the media. Give me a flippen break!
He knew that had nothing to do with JB's death. Where was his outrage? There has never been a human born that would not have wanted to strangle JMK with his bare hands for what he supposedly did. But not JR. The one time he should have been acting for the cameras, he just couldn't do it. I have to wonder if it's because he didn't have to anymore because Patsy wasn't around to see it?

yeah,that was............I didn't get it.And it makes me remember Lunsford's expression when being in the same courtroom and looking at John Couey.I usually try to understand people,even people like Karr,why he does what he does,is there something in his background that made him so,what horrible things could have happened that turned him into a psycho,etc.but hey,that's different ,to ME he's just a subject of analysis,it's not MY dead baby he was talking,bragging about.fgs that guy had sexual,morbid fantasies that involved JR's little kid.
Maybe JR meant it like "this guy is SICK,sick people need to be understood,treated,bla,bla."I agree,most of the times.But how can he be that OBJECTIVE.That's what I don't get.
Or maybe such people just...understand each other.Like an addict understands the other one.God knows.
I promised I won't speculate anymore and look at me it's exactly what I am doing.I don't have any evidence that JR did something bad.I just have his behaviour.If he's innocent I am sorry and I will feel probably pretty guilty if it ever turns out that he did/knew absolutely nothing.But if he did it then he's as evil as Macdonald and thank God THAT one is behind bars where he belongs.

 

[madeleine]

I was revisitng the macdonald case and e few things came to my mind.

-maybe I am just a naive person,maybe when I am looking at suspects I need to see that evil look that tells me it was him and if I don't see it then I find it hard to believe that the person is capable of something really horrible,guess I'd be the perfect victim for someone like Dahmer lol.And now I kinda understand what they say about the most dangerous killers being very charming.And there was NO abuse history in the Macdonald case either,does this make him innocent?No.


-I realized that this is the perfect strategy for defence lawyers.If they are lucky enough to deal with LE incompetence that's what they always say,well of course the intruder left evidence but LE didn't collect it,how convenient,it's the missing evidence always that would help catch the intruder.


-the unsourced tape,rope,flashlight.it can't be sourced to intruder X either.until they source it to X or Y you can't call it intruder evidence .

 

[madeleine]

The DNA in this case still bothers me cause I don't think it was skin they found in JB's panties.And how on earth did it get transfered from there to the long-johns,hard to believe.BUT that doesn't mean it's the killers and it was an intruder.Could be ANYONE who was there God knows what for.To clean the scene for ex. (Did you guys see the movie "Cleaner"?)
If RDI,what makes you think that the two had the strenght to do it by themselves (if cover-up).

 

[madeleine]

Why was JB redressed.

One scenario says that she was redressed because she wet the bed.But that doesn't make sense cause there are signs of smeared blood so this means she was wiped off AFTER she was assaulted.
That means IMO that it wasn't mommy post mortem raping her only to make it look that it was a pedo intruder.If so,why clean the blood up,the bloodier the better.Why stage a rape and then clean the blood???

That means she was cleaned in order to remove evidence.And this evidence was related to the sexual assault.The smeared blood confirms it.

 

[DeeDee249]

And if only the parents knew (specifically Patsy, who bought and wrapped them) that there were brand-new panties right there in the basement, how does that explain that an intruder would have known. They were wrapped, after all. NO one else knew what was in the boxes.

No intruder would have wiped her down or redressed her. No intruder would have wrapped her in her own blanket, nor would they have known that blanket was right there in the basement dryer.

 

[madeleine]

And if only the parents knew (specifically Patsy, who bought and wrapped them) that there were brand-new panties right there in the basement, how does that explain that an intruder would have known. They were wrapped, after all. NO one else knew what was in the boxes.

No intruder would have wiped her down or redressed her. No intruder would have wrapped her in her own blanket, nor would they have known that blanket was right there in the basement dryer.

An intruder would wipe her down to remove incriminating evidence,but redress her.....only if it's part of some ritual, his MO ,but this would point to a pedo,serial,which I doubt.

Another thing.I doubt that the killing (even a staging) could have taken place down there without turning the lights on and that whoever did it used only a flashlight.Who knew that this was a windowless room (no big risk of getting caught or being seen if turning the lights on).Only a friendly intruder or a R.

 

[BBB167893]

Beyond everything else, I can't forget his reaction when JMK was arrested. How he knew how it felt to be tried by the media. Give me a flippen break!

No kidding.

He knew that had nothing to do with JB's death. Where was his outrage?

If I had even thought he was involved, I'd have been doing handsprings in the aisles.

There has never been a human born that would not have wanted to strangle JMK with his bare hands for what he supposedly did.

I wanted to strangle him! Not because I thought he did it; just because of how he tried to make a name for himself by getting involved with it. Of course, that door swings two ways... That, and the world would be better off without sickos like that.

 

[BBB167893]

yeah,that was............I didn't get it.And it makes me remember Lunsford's expression when being in the same courtroom and looking at John Couey.I usually try to understand people,even people like Karr,why he does what he does,is there something in his background that made him so,what horrible things could have happened that turned him into a psycho,etc.but hey,that's different ,to ME he's just a subject of analysis,it's not MY dead baby he was talking,bragging about.fgs that guy had sexual,morbid fantasies that involved JR's little kid.

Yeah, it's easy for us.

Maybe JR meant it like "this guy is SICK,sick people need to be understood,treated,bla,bla."I agree,most of the times.But how can he be that OBJECTIVE.That's what I don't get.

I agree, too. I tried to address that. But like you say: it wasn't one of MY loved ones.

Or maybe such people just...understand each other.Like an addict understands the other one.God knows.

I know what that's like. Birds of a feather.

I promised I won't speculate anymore and look at me it's exactly what I am doing.

Don't beat yourself up. Speculation is the only thing that might solve this case yet.

I don't have any evidence that JR did something bad.I just have his behaviour.If he's innocent I am sorry and I will feel probably pretty guilty if it ever turns out that he did/knew absolutely nothing.But if he did it then he's as evil as Macdonald and thank God THAT one is behind bars where he belongs.

Tell it like it is, sister!

 

[BBB167893]

I was revisitng the macdonald case and e few things came to my mind.

-maybe I am just a naive person,maybe when I am looking at suspects I need to see that evil look that tells me it was him and if I don't see it then I find it hard to believe that the person is capable of something really horrible,guess I'd be the perfect victim for someone like Dahmer lol.And now I kinda understand what they say about the most dangerous killers being very charming.And there was NO abuse history in the Macdonald case either,does this make him innocent?No.

It's true, maddy. Devils always look like angels.

If RDI,what makes you think that the two had the strength to do it by themselves (if cover-up).

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "strength," maddy. I'm not trying to be dense; I just don't want to go off half-cocked.

there are signs of smeared blood so this means she was wiped off AFTER she was assaulted.

That would be my guess.

That means IMO that it wasn't mommy post mortem raping her only to make it look that it was a pedo intruder.

Your opinion means a lot, maddy. But I'm puzzled as to how you got to that from the wiping off. Frankly, I find the two to be mutually reinforcing (even though I'm not convinced that "Mommy" was the one to do it).

If so,why clean the blood up,the bloodier the better. Why stage a rape and then clean the blood???

Probably because they couldn't stand to look at it. As I've said before, the nature of the nature of the sexual assault (not a rape, at least not in the true sense) suggests that whomever did it was repulsed by it, very likely taking a "blind shot."

So, you can say "the bloodier, the better," and you're probably right, in practical terms. But even assuming that the Rs were thinking that, they went to a lot of trouble to make the crime scene bloodless (which also has practical considerations). That, and the idea may have been only to give an explanation for previous injuries down there, and wiping away the blood may have been an attempt to preserve the idea in their minds that JB was already dead.

Moreover, that's one of my main points: if the sexual assault HAD been real, and the perp was this psycho pedo intruder IDI harps on so much, there would have been CONSIDERABLY greater damage to JB's private area. I'm not the only person to say that, either.

I'm spitballing here, but I honestly believe I'm on the right track.

That means she was cleaned in order to remove evidence. And this evidence was related to the sexual assault. The smeared blood confirms it.

The two aren't mutually exclusive, maddy.

 

[madeleine]

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "strength," maddy. I'm not trying to be dense; I just don't want to go off half-cocked.

I meant what makes you so sure that if it was staging it was them who did it and not someone else they called to help them out of the mess.It would have been much easier for an outsider (a profi who they trusted,makes me think of A.G. security people) to do all the things you think are staged (assault,strangulation,clean the body,the scene,dictate the RN).

Your opinion means a lot, maddy. But I'm puzzled as to how you got to that from the wiping off. Frankly, I find the two to be mutually reinforcing (even though I'm not convinced that "Mommy" was the one to do it).

Well,if they post mortem sexually asaulted her only to divert LE ,first of all it doesn't make sense because it contradicts the content of the RN,and second,even if they couldn't stand the blood that's why they did it in the first place right,to make it look like a brutal rape was the motive of the murder,they wouldn't have cleaned up the "evidence" (blood).It's just another "why undo the staging" question.IMO like it was with the broken window and the tape on her mouth.

Moreover, that's one of my main points: if the sexual assault HAD been real, and the perp was this psycho pedo intruder IDI harps on so much, there would have been CONSIDERABLY greater damage to JB's private area. I'm not the only person to say that, either.

Depends....sometimes that's what makes these psychos target little girls,they have problems with satisfying women their age,maybe sexual disfunctions,maybe they are having problems putting the fantasy into practice,maybe they get cold feet and back off without a "happy ending",yuk,dunno,maybe some are just cowardly and shy like JMK.

 

[joeskidbeck]

The DNA in this case still bothers me cause I don't think it was skin they found in JB's panties.And how on earth did it get transfered from there to the long-johns,hard to believe.BUT that doesn't mean it's the killers and it was an intruder.Could be ANYONE who was there God knows what for.To clean the scene for ex. (Did you guys see the movie "Cleaner"?)
If RDI,what makes you think that the two had the strenght to do it by themselves (if cover-up).

If it meant covering his a$$, I believe JR would have had the emotional as well as physical strength to have staged this all by himself (but I do believe that P helped in some areas). This man was/is cunning as well as shrewd. I firmly believe there was no burglar in Atlanta but JR didn't have any qualms about staging one, did he? Hey, it worked once before, why not try it again?

 

[madeleine]

Secret visit from Santa.

The REAL Santa wouldn't have been so stupid and risk telling her that, knowing that she might tell someone.

A sick pedo she met at the mall or something wouldn't tell her that either."Hey you don't know me but I am the real Santa and I'll pay you a visit on X-mas night,be prepared".Nope.

Who is the most likely candidate for such role playing?Either the daddy or a family friend.Someone who played the Santa role before with her.

 

[madeleine]

The secret visit from Santa also reminds me of something Burke said once.Once you tell a secret it's no longer a secret,sounds like someone tricked him and made sure he got it.A bit too many secrets in this family and it's creepy cause it's the kids having them,what is this,another coincidence?

 

[BBB167893]

I meant what makes you so sure that if it was staging it was them who did it and not someone else they called to help them out of the mess.It would have been much easier for an outsider (a profi who they trusted,makes me think of A.G. security people) to do all the things you think are staged (assault,strangulation,clean the body,the scene,dictate the RN).

Well, I guess I'm not sure. But as my Mum used to say, the whole point of a secret is for as few as possible to know about it. Besides, who could you trust with that? We're talking Dracula-Renfield loyalty here.

Well,if they post mortem sexually asaulted her only to divert LE ,first of all it doesn't make sense because it contradicts the content of the RN,

That it does. Way I see it, that just adds more weight to my argument.

and second,even if they couldn't stand the blood that's why they did it in the first place right,to make it look like a brutal rape was the motive of the murder,they wouldn't have cleaned up the "evidence" (blood).

I stand by my earlier statements. Here, try looking at it in a larger context:

--the method of death was strangulation, which doesn't make a bloody mess and allowed the killer to avoid touching JB's actual flesh and to do it from behind so as not to look her in the face.

--the RN author actually took time to mention a proper burial for JB (like a kidnapper would CARE)

--the sexual assault was likely done with the brush handle, which allows the perp to avoid touching her genitals AND the blood was wiped off, as if the person couldn't stand to look at it

What does all of that suggest when you add it all up?

It's just another "why undo the staging" question. IMO like it was with the broken window and the tape on her mouth.

I hear those "why undo the staging" questions, and they just don't work for me. Far as I know, those elements could all be PART of the staging.

Depends....sometimes that's what makes these psychos target little girls,they have problems with satisfying women their age,maybe sexual disfunctions,maybe they are having problems putting the fantasy into practice,maybe they get cold feet and back off without a "happy ending",yuk,dunno,maybe some are just cowardly and shy like JMK.

Even if that's all true, it just doesn't work when you add it all up.

 

[BBB167893]

If it meant covering his a$$, I believe JR would have had the emotional as well as physical strength to have staged this all by himself (but I do believe that P helped in some areas). This man was/is cunning as well as shrewd. I firmly believe there was no burglar in Atlanta but JR didn't have any qualms about staging one, did he? Hey, it worked once before, why not try it again?

I love it!

Moreover, it illustrates one of my other points: if both personalities were at work, they'd likely be of different minds about how to proceed.

 

[BBB167893]

The secret visit from Santa also reminds me of something Burke said once.Once you tell a secret it's no longer a secret,sounds like someone tricked him and made sure he got it.A bit too many secrets in this family and it's creepy cause it's the kids having them,what is this,another coincidence?

Now you're talking my language.