NY - $250m fraud against Former President Donald Trump, Trump Org., Eric, Donald Jr., Sept 2022, Trial 2 Oct 2023, #2

[SouthAussie]

BBM. That's utter nonsense. A mortgage lending officer determines loan terms and Trump's company didn't have to accept them. If Trump had "scammed" any lender, they would have gone after him. No wonder he and his cult of followers are frothing all over themselves. lol

JMO

I am thinking that many of trump's followers are not savvy with the applicable laws, whereas Judge Engoron is.

imo

 

[MyBelle]

@MyBelle I'm not claiming any bank has sued Trump, I'm not aware of those details.

I'm saying that, on principle, the more assets/collateral a borrower has, the better terms they can negotiate on a loan.

Conversely, someone with fewer assets/collateral might have to pay higher interest rate, if they qualify for a loan at all.

I'm fairly sure those general principles still apply even when the borrower is a millionaire or billionaire.

So, presenting yourself as a lower risk than you actually are, even just by a small amount, is fraud. It's giving the bank falsely positive information on which to make their decision about what terms to approve on a requested loan.

And if he got a lower interest rate due to his lies about what his assets were worth, then that is actual money lost from the bank.

Even though the loan was repaid. The bank takes risks on lending, and causing them to think a higher risk is actually a lower risk, is fraud, even if the loan is repaid on time. Because UNTIL the loan is paid, the bank is still having to hold that risk, and inflated assets means they aren't getting paid the proper amount for that risk.

Again, this is all on principle, my understanding of how lending works. I'm not asserting anything specific about the actual loans in question.

As before, MOO

BBM. Isn't that the way it is supposed to work? People with low credit ratings generally pay higher interest if they can get a loan at all because they are higher risk of default? Credit reports, property tax assessments, payments, liens and bankruptcies are all a matter of public record and taken into consideration by the commercial lender before offering the loan. Trump had no control over it, and he didn't have to accept the terms if he didn't like them.

What Trump's properties are "worth" is determined by the commercial banking loan officers. Commercial banks want their lending officers to be college-educated, plus certified. Trump could say Mar-a-Lago has a market value of $2 billion but that doesn't mean any bank is going to give him a $2 B loan. The lending officer decides what the market value is because if the loan defaults, a lien will be placed, and it will be impossible to recover the full $ 2 B if the market value is only worth $1 B.

Commercial real estate and commercial insurance is far more complicated than the Judge seems to understand. I was wondering why Jamie Dimon was so supportive of Trump. Now, I have a better understanding of the reasons why. smh.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

I am thinking that many of trump's followers are not savvy with the applicable laws, whereas Judge Engoron is.

imo

I'm not a Trump follower but I do own several rental properties in an LLC. It appears Judge Engoron isn't very knowledge about banking and lending practices.

JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

I'm not a Trump follower but I do own several rental properties in an LLC. It appears Judge Engoron isn't very knowledge about banking and lending practices.

JMO

But Judge Engoron is very knowledgeable about the law.

Just because others may not have been caught in using dodgy banking and lending practices does not mean they have not broken the rule of the law.

Just because not everyone gets caught speeding on the roads does not mean those that speed are not breaking the law.
Just because there isn't always, what some may think, an apparent victim who suffered a loss by said speeding vehicle, does not mean that there might not have been victims if the speeder hadn't been apprehended.

This is why laws are in place. To act as a deterrent.

imo

 

[MyBelle]

But Judge Engoron is very knowledgeable about the law.

Just because others may not have been caught in using dodgy banking and lending practices does not mean they have not broken the rule of the law.

Just because not everyone gets caught speeding on the roads does not mean those that speed are not breaking the law.
Just because there isn't always, what some may think, an apparent victim who suffered a loss by said speeding vehicle, does not mean that there might not have been victims if the speeder hadn't been apprehended.

This is why laws are in place. To act as a deterrent.

imo

BBM. The Judge's decisions have been reversed in the past. Like every other case, this one will be appealed.

While banking and lending practices may appear to be "dodgy" that doesn't make them illegal. Bankers, and the corporate financial officers who interact with them, are obligated to follow the law. If they don't, they know they are likely to end up at the Gray Bar Hotel.

As for speeders, I recently learned there is an app that warns drivers that there are speed traps ahead. Only an idiot would fail to heed the warning so that's on them.

JMO

Who went to jail for their role in the financial crisis?

The FT identified 47 bankers jailed. Half were from just one country

ig.ft.com

Forty-seven bankers were sentenced to jail time for their role in the financial crisis, Financial Times research has found, dispelling the myth that no one was held personally accountable for the financial sector’s catastrophic failures.

The FT searched records and news reports from across Europe and the US to uncover how many bank employees and directors recieved jail sentences for issues directly linked to the crisis or the collapse of their institutions.

 

[Niner]

Wednesday, January 31st:
*Bench Trial continues (Day 49)-JUDGE’S VERDICT expected! (@ 9:30am ET) – NY - New York vs. Donald J. Trump (76/now 77), Donald Trump, Jr. (45) & Eric Trump (38/now 39) & the Trump Organization, Inc. (Allen Weisselberg (75/now 76) & Jeffrey McConney) are being sued by Letitia James, the New York Attorney General, who is leading a civil investigation (which cannot result in criminal charges filed on 9/21/22) & has spent years looking at whether the company committed various acts of fraud over several decades. In the civil case, Ms. James has filed a lawsuit against Trump & two of his children accusing them of "astounding" fraud & deception.
New York is seeking $250 million in financial penalties & asked the court to ban Trump, Donald Trump Jr. & Eric Trump from serving as an officer or director in any corporation registered or licensed in New York. James also requested the court ban the former president & his business from acquiring real estate in New York or from applying for loans from any New York financial institution for five years. James's civil case accuses Trump of lying from 2011 to 2021 about asset values at the Trump Organization, as well as his own net worth, in order to obtain better terms from lenders & insurers.
Lawsuit against: Donald John Trump, Donald Trump, Jr, Eric Trump, Allen Weisselberg, Jeffrey McConney, The Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, The Trump Organization, Inc., Trump Organization LLC, DJT Holdings LLC, DJT Holinds Managing Memer, Trump Endeavor 12 LLC, 401 North Wabash Venture LLC, Trump Old Post of Fice LLC, 40 Wall Street LLC & Seven Springs LLC.
All charges against Ivanka Trump were dismissed in June, 2023.
Bench Trial began on 10/2/23 & ended on 1/11/24 with closing arguments. Prosecutors rested their case on 11/8/23. Defense began their case on 11/13/23 & ended 12/18/23. Closing arguments were on 1/11/24.
The lawsuit’s remaining 6 counts allege similar acts of fraud (that Trump inflated his assets on statements of financial condition that he submitted to banks & insurers for personal gain).
Judge Arthur F. Engoron presiding / NY State Attorney General Leticia James & senior enforcement counsel Kevin Wallace, Defense attorney Christopher Kise & Jesus Suarez & Alina Habba for Trump, Weisselberg & the rest of the defendants for Trump Org. / Clifford Robert of Robert & Robert PLLC for Donald, Jr. & Eric.
New York appellate court temporarily paused gag orders on Thursday, 11/16/23 & NY AG Letitia James & representatives for Judge Arthur Engoron have until Wednesday, 11/22/23 to file a response to the appellate judge's stay of the limited gag order imposed last month on Trump by Engoron, according to the appellate judge's order. Trump's reply is then due on 11/27/23 before the appellate court decides whether to fully lift the gag order. The civil fraud trial is expected to wrap up in mid-December.
Trump’s request for an expedited grant of leave to appeal the gag orders in his civil fraud trial was denied Monday (12/5/23) afternoon. Trump still has an avenue to appeal the decision to a higher court; however, the effort will take longer than his lawyers would like. Trump’s lawyers now face a deadline of Monday, Dec. 11 to file their papers to the First Department.
New York's highest court has upheld the limited gag order in Trump's civil fraud trial. "On the Court's own motion, appeal dismissed, without costs, upon the ground that no substantial constitutional question is directly involved. Motion for a stay dismissed as academic," New York's Court of Appeals said in a two-sentence ruling issued Tuesday, 1/16/24.
Case & court info & Summary Judgement from 9/21/22 thru 9/28/23 & Bench Trial Day 1-47 (10/2-1/11/24) & thru 1/10/24 reference post #457 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...r-sept-2022-trial-2-oct-2023-2.695170/page-23
1/25/24 Thursday, Trial Day 48: Motions hearing. 1/25/24 Update: New York Attorney General Letitia James’s office wrote in a letter to the judge overseeing Trump’s civil fraud trial Tuesday that the affirmation of Shkreli’s lifetime ban should embolden the judge to seek the same penalty for Trump. James has asked the judge to force Trump to pay nearly $370 million as a penalty & to issue a lifetime ban on Trump & two top executives from doing real estate business in New York. Her office also asked for a five-year ban on Trump’s adult sons, Donald Trump Jr. & Eric Trump. Trump’s legal team forcefully pushed back against the characterization, reiterating arguments made at trial that there are no victims of the fraud alleged by the attorney general. Engoron said he hopes to issue a decision in the case by 1/31/24, though it could come at any time.
for more info see post #459 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...r-sept-2022-trial-2-oct-2023-2.695170/page-23
Judge Engoron’s decision on 1/31/24 or before.
1/26/24 Update: The Trump Organization has cooperated with its independent monitor but risks putting out inaccurate financial statements, according to a report issued on Friday by a court-appointed monitor. The report comes ahead of an expected ruling in a $370 million civil trial involving Trump's company. The report – issued at the request of Judge Arthur Engoron to summarize the 14 months of the Trump Organization's court-appointed monitorship – found that the company has been cooperative, implemented some changes & issued necessary corrections to financial statements. However, based on her review of over 3,000 documents, retired Judge Barbara Jones identified that the Trump Organization often provided documents "lacking in completeness & timeliness." Jones also said that the Trump Organization still lacks a formal compliance department, issued statements that include errors & misstatements & operates in a manner that reflects "a lack of effective governance." "it does not appear that there are adequate accounting & presentation standards, procedures, or training associated with the preparation of financial disclosures. To the extent adequate standards & procedures do exist, they do not appear to have been followed across the organization." A footnote tucked into a court letter suggests that Trump lied to the government for years about a mysterious $50 million loan [between Donald J. Trump, individually & Chicago Unit Acquisition for $48 million] that apparently never existed—a lie that tax experts said suggests potentially major tax evasion. If true, that would essentially be an admission from the Trump Organization that all the financial disclosures Trump has filed with the federal government listed an entirely fictional debt worth tens of millions of dollars, which Trump claimed he personally owed to one of his own companies. It’s unclear why the debt is listed in the “more than $50 million” category on those statements when, according to the Jones letter, it was really $48 million, which would have fallen in the “$25 million-$50 million” range. But another unusual thing happened last year: Trump paid his taxes. A lot of them—$29 million, in fact, according to a previous status letter from Barbara Jones. If Trump were hit with the 39% capital gains tax on that $48 million, that would come out to a little more than $18 million.
1/29/24 Update: Clifford S. Robert (attorney for Don, Jr. & Eric) sends letter to Judge Engeron re Barbara Jones' report-finding it has no basis to support continued oversight.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

At first I misread that headline and thought that the tRump had made that Les Mis reference and was shocked he'd ever heard of Javert let alone is smart enough to draw such a comparison.

And she's implying Trump would be Jean Valjean.

 

[Niner]

No decision by the Judge? Do not see any articles - my usual ones with nothing??

 

[Auntie Cipation]

No decision by the Judge? Do not see any articles - my usual ones with nothing??

I'm keeping an eye on Inner City Press on twitter. He says he's on alert for Judge Engoron's decision, but hasn't posted anything yet so I guess no decision yet. Oh, the suspense!

 

[musicaljoke]

BBM. Isn't that the way it is supposed to work? People with low credit ratings generally pay higher interest if they can get a loan at all because they are higher risk of default? Credit reports, property tax assessments, payments, liens and bankruptcies are all a matter of public record and taken into consideration by the commercial lender before offering the loan. Trump had no control over it, and he didn't have to accept the terms if he didn't like them.

What Trump's properties are "worth" is determined by the commercial banking loan officers. Commercial banks want their lending officers to be college-educated, plus certified. Trump could say Mar-a-Lago has a market value of $2 billion but that doesn't mean any bank is going to give him a $2 B loan. The lending officer decides what the market value is because if the loan defaults, a lien will be placed, and it will be impossible to recover the full $ 2 B if the market value is only worth $1 B.

Commercial real estate and commercial insurance is far more complicated than the Judge seems to understand. I was wondering why Jamie Dimon was so supportive of Trump. Now, I have a better understanding of the reasons why. smh.

JMO

The lending officer based his evaluation upon the fraudulent documentstion that was given to him by the T Corp. Therein lies the issue.

 

[Niner]

I'm keeping an eye on Inner City Press on twitter. He says he's on alert for Judge Engoron's decision, but hasn't posted anything yet so I guess no decision yet. Oh, the suspense!

Okay - great! Will await your report! and thanks!

 

[sds71]

Reminder:
Justice Engoron said he hoped to release his ruling in Trump's civil fraud case today — but that the date was aspirational.
We'll wait and see.

https://x.com/KlasfeldReports/status/1752749541810475236?s=20

 

[Stunned]

Please let it be today! Let The tweets begin! (If he gets to keep his phone!) IMO

 

[tlcya]

‘Accountants are bringing up the f-word - fraud’: Errors flagged in Trump Organization filings

Always read the footnotes.

That’s where former federal judge Barbara Jones, the court-appointed special monitor in Donald Trump’s New York business fraud case, just planted a financial bombshell that legal experts say suggests Trump lied knowingly and repeatedly on his federal financial disclosures about a major loan that never existed—and may have evaded taxes on $48 million in income.
Trump’s $50 Million Mystery Debt Looks Like ‘Tax Evasion’

the letter

 

[Herat]

‘Accountants are bringing up the f-word - fraud’: Errors flagged in Trump Organization filings

Always read the footnotes.

That’s where former federal judge Barbara Jones, the court-appointed special monitor in Donald Trump’s New York business fraud case, just planted a financial bombshell that legal experts say suggests Trump lied knowingly and repeatedly on his federal financial disclosures about a major loan that never existed—and may have evaded taxes on $48 million in income.
Trump’s $50 Million Mystery Debt Looks Like ‘Tax Evasion’

the letter

Well, after all, it was the IRS that finally put Al Capone in prison.

 

[Stunned]

For once I might say, Thank you IRS!

 

[Arkay]

‘Accountants are bringing up the f-word - fraud’: Errors flagged in Trump Organization filings

Always read the footnotes.

That’s where former federal judge Barbara Jones, the court-appointed special monitor in Donald Trump’s New York business fraud case, just planted a financial bombshell that legal experts say suggests Trump lied knowingly and repeatedly on his federal financial disclosures about a major loan that never existed—and may have evaded taxes on $48 million in income.
Trump’s $50 Million Mystery Debt Looks Like ‘Tax Evasion’

the letter

Interesting how often the monitoring judge says “erroneously” when IMO it was all done “purposefully.”

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Why Trump’s mysterious $48 million loan matters

While it could be evidence of a crime, it’s likely more important, for now, in the New York attorney general’s civil fraud trial, where a ruling is expected any day.

www.msnbc.com

But if there never was any loan, the consequences could be significant — though not necessarily in the way others have suggested. Yes, if Trump received $48 million but never repaid it, that should have had tax consequences. But I am far more interested in how Engoron could be influenced by the discrepancies between how Trump has reported the loan and how he has documented it.

Recall that the New York AG has asked Engoron not only to claw back $370 million in ill-gotten gains from Trump and the other defendants, but also to order a variety of injunctive relief that would prevent Trump and others from doing otherwise lawful acts. That relief includes bans, whether permanently for Trump or more temporarily for Eric and Don Jr., on their participation in the New York real estate industry and their service as directors and officers of New York companies.

In requesting said relief, the attorney general’s office argued that the defendants not only have “a demonstrated history of creating and using false financial documents,” but also that their conduct is likely to recur without such measures. Why? Because, the AG’s office argues, Trump and the others’ unlawful financial conduct persisted throughout the attorney general’s investigation and even after the monitor’s appointment. That Jones has uncovered what could be even further evidence of fraud, as recently as last year, could be the cherry on top of the sundae that Engoron serves Trump.

 

[SouthAussie]

.
Trump's big NY fraud verdict won't come until next week

The article says that an anonymous insider told them that the verdict should hit the electronic court docket on or around 5th Feb.

 

[musicaljoke]

.
Trump's big NY fraud verdict won't come until next week

The article says that an anonymous insider told them that the verdict should hit the electronic court docket on or around 5th Feb.

Anonymous insiders within the courthouse need to be a bit more careful what they say in public. Surely they remain anonymous because they are relaying info that ought to stay within the courthouse. Who can verify what they say?