NY - $250m fraud against Former President Donald Trump, Trump Org., Eric, Donald Jr., Sept 2022, Trial 2 Oct 2023, #2

[sds71]

The report – issued at the request of Judge Arthur Engoron to summarize the 14 months of the Trump Organization's court-appointed monitorship – found that the company has been cooperative, implemented some changes, and issued necessary corrections to financial statements. However, based on her review of over 3000 documents, retired judge Barbara Jones identified that the Trump Organization often provided documents "lacking in completeness and timeliness."

A footnote tucked into a court letter suggests that Trump lied to the government for years about a mysterious $50 million loan that apparently never existed—a lie that tax experts said suggests potentially major tax evasion.

Trump Organization monitor flags errors and financial misstatements ahead of ruling in fraud case

The report was issued at the request of Judge Arthur Engoron to summarize the 14 months of the Trump Organization's independent monitorship.

abcnews.go.com

Trump’s $50 Million Mystery Debt Looks Like ‘Tax Evasion’

Donald Trump has long claimed he personally owed tens of millions to an obscure entity related to his Chicago tower. But court docs claim Trump Org. now says it never existed.

www.thedailybeast.com

 

[Herat]

The report – issued at the request of Judge Arthur Engoron to summarize the 14 months of the Trump Organization's court-appointed monitorship – found that the company has been cooperative, implemented some changes, and issued necessary corrections to financial statements. However, based on her review of over 3000 documents, retired judge Barbara Jones identified that the Trump Organization often provided documents "lacking in completeness and timeliness."

A footnote tucked into a court letter suggests that Trump lied to the government for years about a mysterious $50 million loan that apparently never existed—a lie that tax experts said suggests potentially major tax evasion.

Trump Organization monitor flags errors and financial misstatements ahead of ruling in fraud case

The report was issued at the request of Judge Arthur Engoron to summarize the 14 months of the Trump Organization's independent monitorship.

abcnews.go.com

Trump’s $50 Million Mystery Debt Looks Like ‘Tax Evasion’

Donald Trump has long claimed he personally owed tens of millions to an obscure entity related to his Chicago tower. But court docs claim Trump Org. now says it never existed.

www.thedailybeast.com

So, next step: The IRS?

$50 million tax evasion.

 

[sds71]

Trump Lawyer Attacks ‘Self-Serving’ Court-Appointed Monitor as a ‘Javert’ After She Calls Out Financial ‘Errors’​

Instead of stealing a loaf of bread like Victor Hugo's protagonist, Trump stands accused of fraudulently inflating his wealth by billions.​

This is the first time that I am aware of Trump's lawyers going after court-appointed monitor Barbara Jones, a former federal judge who was also a monitor in Michael Cohen and Rudy Giuliani's investigations.

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

Trump Lawyer Attacks 'Self-Serving' Court-Appointed Monitor as a 'Javert' After She Calls Out Financial 'Errors'

Instead of stealing a loaf of bread like Victor Hugo's protagonist, Trump stands accused of fraudulently inflating his wealth by billions.

themessenger.com

 

[lilacstorm]

If this is not the right thread to say this then an admin should remove it.

I read a few articles that suggested that because Trump is a former president that he cannot go to prison due to being under protection of Secret Service. I have seen suggestions of house arrest. There is also speculation that Trump being incarcerated may not prevent him from being President, if elected again...somehow.

There are so many different cases involving Trump that I hope I am putting this in the right place.

 

[tlcya]

Trump Lawyer Attacks ‘Self-Serving’ Court-Appointed Monitor as a ‘Javert’ After She Calls Out Financial ‘Errors’​

Instead of stealing a loaf of bread like Victor Hugo's protagonist, Trump stands accused of fraudulently inflating his wealth by billions.​

This is the first time that I am aware of Trump's lawyers going after court-appointed monitor Barbara Jones, a former federal judge who was also a monitor in Michael Cohen and Rudy Giuliani's investigations.

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

Trump Lawyer Attacks 'Self-Serving' Court-Appointed Monitor as a 'Javert' After She Calls Out Financial 'Errors'

Instead of stealing a loaf of bread like Victor Hugo's protagonist, Trump stands accused of fraudulently inflating his wealth by billions.

themessenger.com

At first I misread that headline and thought that the tRump had made that Les Mis reference and was shocked he'd ever heard of Javert let alone is smart enough to draw such a comparison.

At least Clifford Robert, however misguided, has attempted to make an actual point with his statement, unlike Habba's recent statements after the Carroll verdict, which were completely off the flippin rails. That woman is somethin else. She simply parrots her "President" (you know the one who hasn't occupied that office since 2021) with her regurgitated sour grape kool-aid.

 

[MyBelle]

At first I misread that headline and thought that the tRump had made that Les Mis reference and was shocked he'd ever heard of Javert let alone is smart enough to draw such a comparison.

At least Clifford Robert, however misguided, has attempted to make an actual point with his statement, unlike Habba's recent statements after the Carroll verdict, which were completely off the flippin rails. That woman is somethin else. She simply parrots her "President" (you know the one who hasn't occupied that office since 2021) with her regurgitated sour grape kool-aid.

I don't believe the attorney is misguided. He makes a valid point. Kevin O'Leary did an interview with CCN and said what Trump has done with valuations is what every other wealthy real estate investor has done.

JMO

Shark Tank star defends Donald Trump in "ridiculous" Letitia James case

Kevin O'Leary defends Trump in the Letitia James case, pointing to widespread real estate practices.

www.newsweek.com

While O'Leary agrees that Trump has "a lot of problems in other indictments," he's calling the civil fraud case brought by James "ridiculous," arguing it goes after standard real estate development practices and could set a dangerous precedent for the entire industry.

 

[SouthAussie]

I don't believe the attorney is misguided. He makes a valid point. Kevin O'Leary did an interview with CCN and said what Trump has done with valuations is what every other wealthy real estate investor has done.

JMO

Shark Tank star defends Donald Trump in "ridiculous" Letitia James case

Kevin O'Leary defends Trump in the Letitia James case, pointing to widespread real estate practices.

www.newsweek.com

While O'Leary agrees that Trump has "a lot of problems in other indictments," he's calling the civil fraud case brought by James "ridiculous," arguing it goes after standard real estate development practices and could set a dangerous precedent for the entire industry.

And Letitia James disagrees. Which is what the case is about.

(from your linked article) ...... James' office maintained its stance that The Trump Organization's actions were not mere puffery, and constituted a clear intent to deceive and defraud.

We had a case here in Australia where a couple was charged with having someone put in a dummy bid on their property, to drive up the prices of the offers on the property, which is fraud. This is thought to be a "standard real estate practice" but it is illegal.
(The couple pleaded guilty to a lesser charge of dishonestly obtaining a financial advantage by deception.)

imo

 

[MyBelle]

And Letitia James disagrees. Which is what the case is about.

(from your linked article) ...... James' office maintained its stance that The Trump Organization's actions were not mere puffery, and constituted a clear intent to deceive and defraud.

We had a case here in Australia where a couple was charged with having someone put in a dummy bid on their property, to drive up the prices of the offers on the property, which is fraud. This is thought to be a "standard real estate practice" but it is illegal.
(The couple pleaded guilty to a lesser charge of dishonestly obtaining a financial advantage by deception.)

imo

Who was defrauded? Were the banks not repaid for the loans?

I don't know how real estate sales are handled in Australia but in some cities in the US there is such a shortage of housing, often multiple bidders make offers over the asking price.

JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

Who was defrauded? Were the banks not repaid for the loans?

I don't know how real estate sales are handled in Australia but in some cities in the US there is such a shortage of housing, often multiple bidders make offers over the asking price.

JMO

Banks, insurers, and (unnamed) others.

Judge Arthur Engoron, ruling in a civil lawsuit brought by New York Attorney General Letitia James, found that Trump and his company deceived banks, insurers and others by massively overvaluing his assets and exaggerating his net worth on paperwork used in making deals and securing loans.

Judge rules Donald Trump defrauded banks and insurers while building real estate empire

A judge has ruled that Donald Trump committed fraud for years while building the real estate empire that catapulted him to fame and the White House.

apnews.com

The point about the prosecution for the dummy bid in Australia is that it is illegal. And the couple were caught doing this illegal act (but "standard real estate practice" that no-one admits to) of driving up the prices.

imo

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Judge is supposed to rule non Wednesday.

 

[MyBelle]

Banks, insurers, and (unnamed) others.

Judge Arthur Engoron, ruling in a civil lawsuit brought by New York Attorney General Letitia James, found that Trump and his company deceived banks, insurers and others by massively overvaluing his assets and exaggerating his net worth on paperwork used in making deals and securing loans.

Judge rules Donald Trump defrauded banks and insurers while building real estate empire

A judge has ruled that Donald Trump committed fraud for years while building the real estate empire that catapulted him to fame and the White House.

apnews.com

The point about the prosecution for the dummy bid in Australia is that it is illegal. And the couple were caught doing this illegal act (but "standard real estate practice" that no-one admits to) of driving up the prices.

imo

Wouldn't the banks, insurers, etc. have grounds for a lawsuit against Trump if he defrauded them? I've never heard of dummy bids in real estate. Here, there is such low supply, multiple bidders offer above asking.

I really don't understand this lawsuit and wish there was only one lawsuit about January 6th because so many LE got hurt. There was real damage inflicted by those nutjobs.

All these many lawsuits seem to have accomplished is helping Trump when it comes to attracting voters because they feel the lawsuits are politically motivated. I feel that way about several of them and I can't stand Trump.

JMO

 

[musicaljoke]

Who was defrauded? Were the banks not repaid for the loans?

I don't know how real estate sales are handled in Australia but in some cities in the US there is such a shortage of housing, often multiple bidders make offers over the asking price.

JMO

Banks are usually owned by stockholders. At the end of the year, a bank pays some or all of its profits to its shareholders in the form of dividends.

When the bank issues a loan based on false information, then the stockholders are defrauded of their profits.

When property value is inflated to secure bank loans, but undervalued for the purpose of paying property taxes, then the community is defrauded of tax dollars. When billions of dollars are under question, then the impact of falsifying records is huge.

 

[MyBelle]

Banks are usually owned by stockholders. At the end of the year, a bank pays some or all of its profits to its shareholders in the form of dividends.

When the bank issues a loan based on false information, then the stockholders are defrauded of their profits.

When property value is inflated to secure bank loans, but undervalued for the purpose of paying property taxes, then the community is defrauded of tax dollars. When billions of dollars are under question, then the impact of falsifying records is huge.

BBM. I disagree. Because if the loan is paid back in full, the bank shareholders don't lose any money at all because the banks charge interest on the loans. The interest is the bank's profit.

Real estate loans from a bank have nothing to do with how much property taxes are assessed by tax assessors.

JMO

https://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/publications/orpts/taxworks.pdf

A property’s assessment is based on its market value. Market value is how much a property would sell for under normal conditions. Assessments are determined by the assessor, a local official who independently estimates the value of real property for a city, town, or village.

 

[musicaljoke]

BBM. I disagree. Because if the loan is paid back in full, the bank shareholders don't lose any money at all because the banks charge interest on the loans. The interest is the bank's profit.

Real estate loans from a bank have nothing to do with how much property taxes are assessed by tax assessors.

JMO

https://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/publications/orpts/taxworks.pdf

A property’s assessment is based on its market value. Market value is how much a property would sell for under normal conditions. Assessments are determined by the assessor, a local official who independently estimates the value of real property for a city, town, or village.

The rate that the bank charges for loans varies based on how well the loan is secured, so large loans require large securities or they have higher rates. When the customer inflates the value of their securities, then the bank is deceived into issuing loans of lower rates than what would otherwise be awarded. When the loans involve 2.2 billion dollars, then there is a huge loss to the shareholders.

Please remember that T amassed enormous debts and then declared bankruptcy six (!) times, which allowed him to remain in business while the shareholders had their equity wiped away. It indicates a pattern of doing business at the expense of others.

T is accused of fraudulently describing his real estate holdings, disregarding the independent assessment.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

The banks may have gotten repaid, but that's not the only thing that matters.

Prior to approving a loan, the bank assesses the person's risk, including their current assets.

A riskier borrower would have to pay a higher interest rate or otherwise not get as many benefits with their loan.

The borrower doesn't get to falsely hide their risk factor (which falsely claiming more assets does) -- they don't get to tell the bank they aren't as much of a risk as their assets suggest. Even if they know 100% that they will repay on time etc. That's the bank's prerogative and the borrower doesn't get to jump the line in that process.

So Trump defrauded the bank in two ways --

One, he imposed himself improperly into their risk-assessment decisionmaking, and presented himself as less risky than he appeared. THAT's fraud.

And Two, he didn't (presumably) have to pay as high an interest rate as he otherwise would have. THAT is tangible money lost to the bank.

MOO

 

[MyBelle]

The banks may have gotten repaid, but that's not the only thing that matters.

Prior to approving a loan, the bank assesses the person's risk, including their current assets.

A riskier borrower would have to pay a higher interest rate or otherwise not get as many benefits with their loan.

The borrower doesn't get to falsely hide their risk factor (which falsely claiming more assets does) -- they don't get to tell the bank they aren't as much of a risk as their assets suggest. Even if they know 100% that they will repay on time etc. That's the bank's prerogative and the borrower doesn't get to jump the line in that process.

So Trump defrauded the bank in two ways --

One, he imposed himself improperly into their risk-assessment decisionmaking, and presented himself as less risky than he appeared. THAT's fraud.

And Two, he didn't (presumably) have to pay as high an interest rate as he otherwise would have. THAT is tangible money lost to the bank.

MOO

BBM. I'm pretty sure being repaid the loan+interest is the only thing that matters to the bank.

How was Trump a "riskier borrower"??????? What was Trump's risk factor he was hiding? The taxes he paid on the properties were all a matter of public record.

The bank's mortgage officer would have a copy of the deed, would know the business credit rating, liens against the deed and determines the risk. Trump's Company would have to pay whatever interest rate the bank wanted for repayment and apparently that is what happened because no bank has sued the Trump company for fraud that I'm aware of. A link would be helpful. Thanks.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

The rate that the bank charges for loans varies based on how well the loan is secured, so large loans require large securities or they have higher rates. When the customer inflates the value of their securities, then the bank is deceived into issuing loans of lower rates than what would otherwise be awarded. When the loans involve 2.2 billion dollars, then there is a huge loss to the shareholders.

Please remember that T amassed enormous debts and then declared bankruptcy six (!) times, which allowed him to remain in business while the shareholders had their equity wiped away. It indicates a pattern of doing business at the expense of others.

T is accused of fraudulently describing his real estate holdings, disregarding the independent assessment.

BBM. How do you know the loan didn't have a higher rate? It is the borrower's ability to repay that is most important. Did a bank sue Trump? No.

JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

How do you know the loan didn't have a higher rate?

In his ruling - after reviewing all of the evidence - Judge Engoron has stated that, due to the fraud, trump was .... "reaping rewards such as favorable loan terms and lower insurance costs".

“In defendants’ world: rent regulated apartments are worth the same as unregulated apartments; restricted land is worth the same as unrestricted land; restrictions can evaporate into thin air; a disclaimer by one party casting responsibility on another party exonerates the other party’s lies,”
“That is a fantasy world, not the real world.”

Judge rules Donald Trump defrauded banks and insurers while building real estate empire

A judge has ruled that Donald Trump committed fraud for years while building the real estate empire that catapulted him to fame and the White House.

apnews.com

 

[Auntie Cipation]

@MyBelle I'm not claiming any bank has sued Trump, I'm not aware of those details.

I'm saying that, on principle, the more assets/collateral a borrower has, the better terms they can negotiate on a loan.

Conversely, someone with fewer assets/collateral might have to pay higher interest rate, if they qualify for a loan at all.

I'm fairly sure those general principles still apply even when the borrower is a millionaire or billionaire.

So, presenting yourself as a lower risk than you actually are, even just by a small amount, is fraud. It's giving the bank falsely positive information on which to make their decision about what terms to approve on a requested loan.

And if he got a lower interest rate due to his lies about what his assets were worth, then that is actual money lost from the bank.

Even though the loan was repaid. The bank takes risks on lending, and causing them to think a higher risk is actually a lower risk, is fraud, even if the loan is repaid on time. Because UNTIL the loan is paid, the bank is still having to hold that risk, and inflated assets means they aren't getting paid the proper amount for that risk.

Again, this is all on principle, my understanding of how lending works. I'm not asserting anything specific about the actual loans in question.

As before, MOO

 

[MyBelle]

In his ruling - after reviewing all of the evidence - Judge Engoron has stated that, due to the fraud, trump was .... "reaping rewards such as favorable loan terms and lower insurance costs".

“In defendants’ world: rent regulated apartments are worth the same as unregulated apartments; restricted land is worth the same as unrestricted land; restrictions can evaporate into thin air; a disclaimer by one party casting responsibility on another party exonerates the other party’s lies,”
“That is a fantasy world, not the real world.”

Judge rules Donald Trump defrauded banks and insurers while building real estate empire

A judge has ruled that Donald Trump committed fraud for years while building the real estate empire that catapulted him to fame and the White House.

apnews.com

BBM. That's utter nonsense. A mortgage lending officer determines loan terms and Trump's company didn't have to accept them. If Trump had "scammed" any lender, they would have gone after him. No wonder he and his cult of followers are frothing all over themselves. lol

JMO