GUILTY NY - Bernard Madoff charged in $50 billion fraud, 2008 - dies Apr 2021

[Gene]

This is an interesting time line leading up to his death:

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/news/article.aspx?feed=AP&date=20101211&id=12502907

It is hard to believe that the two sons had no idea of the fraud. They also appeart to have greatly benefited from this scam. "Mark Madoff is accused as improperly using $66 million from the business to buy luxury homes in New York City, Nantucket and Connecticut." So, of course it is not fair that they would continue to enjoy the benefits of this crime. On the otherhand, it must have been a very stressful time for him as the lawsuits started to mount. So sad.

 

[yosande]

Money IS the root of all evil.
Hopefully, the wife will go on, change her last name and this 2 yr old will have a different set of values and have a wonderful life.:angel:
Look at the example te Maddoff sons had for a Father? pretty bad.

Money isn't the root of all evil, the Love of money is the root of all evil.

Money is nothing more than parchment, ink, and metals.

It is simply a tool which we use to barder for goods.

I've handled many thousands of it, and it's just dirty parchment, worthless but for the value we place on it.
just saying.
moo

 

[OneLove]

I think he alerted the wife to something because the wife was so worried she called her father to go check on him.I think he knew the child was fast asleep and would not be alone for long, since he did alert his wife somehow.


SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>from one of the articles given here.
Mark Madoff, in desperate early morning e-mails to his wife,
said he could no longer live with the curse put on the family by his disgraced dad.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_...gs_himself_in_soho_apartment_sources_say.html

On the first BBM statement, could it be possible that she simply called in the early a.m. as routine before he began his workday and when he did not answer, became worried? I know that is exactly what I would do with a 2 year old at home alone with dad.

On the second BBM statement, isn't it kinda hard to absolutely KNOW for sure who typed an email from his computer? Its not like he left a note in his own handwriting.

 

[OneLove]

This is an interesting time line leading up to his death:

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/news/article.aspx?feed=AP&date=20101211&id=12502907

It is hard to believe that the two sons had no idea of the fraud. They also appeart to have greatly benefited from this scam. "Mark Madoff is accused as improperly using $66 million from the business to buy luxury homes in New York City, Nantucket and Connecticut." So, of course it is not fair that they would continue to enjoy the benefits of this crime. On the otherhand, it must have been a very stressful time for him as the lawsuits started to mount. So sad.

Veeery interesting timeline. With 56 I *advertiser censored*ume to be powerful and wealthy defendents about to be dragged through the courts and lose major moolah, I wonder if:

1) They thought Mark had cooperated with authorities in giving confidential information only he would have known?

OR

2) They thought Mark would be called to testify as to information only Mark would have been privy to?

Is there anyone out there besides me that thinks this sad death might have been hinky?

 

[Steely]

This is an "apparent" suicide. If it isn't, a "dog leash" might be an extra message directed to his father. An email could have been sent by Madoff at gunpoint (2 year old hostage in the house) or by a murderer afterward. If the 2 year old had been harmed...it wouldn't look like a suicide. The dog was there and it was a "Labradoodle" according to media reports. Is that a labrador/poodle mix?

 

[yosande]

Thanks for the article Buzzie.
I doubt that it was pre-planned. I think he just snapped.
It happend right after Trustee was seeking $19.6 Billion from an Austrian banker; I wonder what happend at that meeting ?
Also:
The apparent suicide came on the two-year anniversary of Bernie Madoff's arrest.

The fact that he was e-mailing with his wife and she became so worried, makes me think that he wanted someone to find the baby before the baby was to wake up.

I am glad my guess was right and the baby was asleep not roaming around. :angel:

bbm, then why did he do this in the living room?

Why not the bedroom, where he could lock the door and secure his heart that his son would not see him?

I also think the dog leash is kinda strange. It seems to make a statement, such as, "I was drug around like a dog for years, and now I entangled in it." or something like that.

"If I were a rich man" Sorry, the song popped in my head.

But if I were a rich man, and was going to off myself, because I couldn't take all the abuse his family is suffering from, well, ok, like this is going to help?

I would take an overdose of antidepresents or antianxiety meds, or something, valium, whatever.

I would'nt choose such a violent death that someone was going to have to walk in and see. It's not a peaceful way to die.

But it does have some history, this hanging in public, if you will.

And that is that a horse theif, or murderer was hanged in the center of town, for all to see, as a sign of open indignity.

Imo, there is room to investigat to ensure he did this himself, and didn't have any assistance in the matter.

Also, each man is to pay for his own sins, the chuildren should not have the guilt of the father thrown on him.
If he was not convicted of a crime, people really should just leave him, and his family alone.

Furthermore, I don't know this story well, or the family dynamics, but could the son have had the strength to stand up to his father, or blow the whistle on him, or simply leave it all and make your own life.

Was he consumed with guilt?
He said, " No one wants to hear/know the truth."

He iwas wrong. Many people know that only the truth will set you free.

I hope he has prepared the truth to come to the light of the day.

Suicide imo doesn't always mean a person feels guilty.
Sometimes life does become overbearing, and if you are prone to depression already, it could easity have been a desire for relief of the abuse from the worlk, whethere that abuse was real or imagined, just, or unjust.

moo

 

[songline]

Did they have a dog? Was the dog there? Was it their dog's leash? Sounds like a "dog leash" might be an extra message directed to his father. Emails/chats could have been sent by someone else either by Madoff at gunpoint (2 year old hostage in the house) or by a murderer afterward. If the 2 year old had been harmed...it wouldn't look like a suicide.

I will go look, but one of the links say that either his garage or someone else on the block had seen him walk his dog the day before and he looked fine, and was a friendly guy.
I would say they had a dog.

 

[Steely]

Veeery interesting timeline.
Is there anyone out there besides me that thinks this sad death might have been hinky?

Yes! I was typing while you were posting. I thought it was hinky the minute I read his two year old son was there. When I read he was hanging from a dog leash and there was only an EMAIL alerting the mother...:waitasec:

 

[Steely]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/..._son_andrew_found_dead_41QZ5xHZ2Ifq2IBmRtZgLK

labradoodle named "Grouper"

 

[songline]

bbm, then why did he do this in the living room?

Why not the bedroom, where he could lock the door and secure his heart that his son would not see him?

I also think the dog leash is kinda strange. It seems to make a statement, such as, "I was drug around like a dog for years, and now I entangled in it." or something like that.

"If I were a rich man" Sorry, the song popped in my head.

But if I were a rich man, and was going to off myself, because I couldn't take all the abuse his family is suffering from, well, ok, like this is going to help?

I would take an overdose of antidepresents or antianxiety meds, or something, valium, whatever.

I would'nt choose such a violent death that someone was going to have to walk in and see. It's not a peaceful way to die.

But it does have some history, this hanging in public, if you will.

And that is that a horse theif, or murderer was hanged in the center of town, for all to see, as a sign of open indignity.

Imo, there is room to investigat to ensure he did this himself, and didn't have any assistance in the matter.

Also, each man is to pay for his own sins, the chuildren should not have the guilt of the father thrown on him.
If he was not convicted of a crime, people really should just leave him, and his family alone.

Furthermore, I don't know this story well, or the family dynamics, but could the son have had the strength to stand up to his father, or blow the whistle on him, or simply leave it all and make your own life.

Was he consumed with guilt?
He said, " No one wants to hear/know the truth."

He iwas wrong. Many people know that only the truth will set you free.

I hope he has prepared the truth to come to the light of the day.

Suicide imo doesn't always mean a person feels guilty.
Sometimes life does become overbearing, and if you are prone to depression already, it could easity have been a desire for relief of the abuse from the worlk, whethere that abuse was real or imagined, just, or unjust.

moo

Some lofts in Soho / Manhattan (I am a real estate Broker and have seen many of these) the living room has much higher ceilings and some have exposed pipes which his apartment did have. HOWEVER, many people have lowered the ceilings in the bedroom and do not feature exposed pipes.
SO maybe in his apartment the Living room was the only place he could hang.
I do not know why some do not select pills as an alternative? Maybe they do not have any; maybe they are afraid that they will survive the suicide attempt?
So I can not answear your WHY? I can only tell you it may not have been an option.

I think if he had planned this, he would not have had his son with him.
I think he snapped after the meetings this week, which also named all of Madoffs grandchildren into the lawsuit.

The 2 Madoff sons did turn the father in 2 years ago.

I think his life did become overbearing. in his e-mail to his wife he said he could not deal with all that his fathers wrong doing has done to the family. (I am not quoting him) there is an exact quote on one of the links.

 

[songline]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/..._son_andrew_found_dead_41QZ5xHZ2Ifq2IBmRtZgLK

labradoodle named "Grouper"

Also from your link:

"No one wants to hear the truth," the despondent 46-year-old scion wrote his lawyer in one of three wrenching emails dispatched around 4 a.m., a law enforcement source told The Post.

"Take care of my family."

In two messages sent to wife Stephanie he said, "I love you" — and then alerted her to "send someone to take care of Nick," the source said.



Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/...und_dead_41QZ5xHZ2Ifq2IBmRtZgLK#ixzz17qWdJjvb

POOR GUY had enough

 

[Steely]

Also from your link:

"No one wants to hear the truth," the despondent 46-year-old scion wrote his lawyer in one of three wrenching emails dispatched around 4 a.m., a law enforcement source told The Post.

"Take care of my family."

In two messages sent to wife Stephanie he said, "I love you" — and then alerted her to "send someone to take care of Nick," the source said.



Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/...und_dead_41QZ5xHZ2Ifq2IBmRtZgLK#ixzz17qWdJjvb

POOR GUY had enough

Why emails at 4 am with 2 year old sleeping? He couldn't be sure on a SATURDAY his messages would be received BEFORE the little guy woke up. Why not a PHONE CALL? He'd be gone before help arrived and he could be sure his son wouldn't be unattended except for a dog and him hanging from the ceiling. I'm not convinced it was suicide. Could be but might not be...

 

[songline]

Why emails at 4 am with 2 year old sleeping? He couldn't be sure on a SATURDAY his messages would be received BEFORE the little guy woke up. Why not a PHONE CALL? He'd be gone before help arrived and he could be sure his son wouldn't be unattended except for a dog and him hanging from the ceiling. I'm not convinced it was suicide. Could be but might not be...

From your link.
He e-mailed the wife that he loves her and to make sure that someone comes in
to take care of Nick (the son). HE must have known they had people near by and he did know
the father in law is an attorney in town.

He did not need HIS lawyer for that. It was not as if he was telling the lawyer anything
that had to be done over the next few hours.
He told his lawyer that nobody wants to know the truth, take care of my family.
He did not tell his lawyer to come pick up Nick.

Could someone else have done all these e-mails :waitasec:
I do not think so...But he sure did have a lot of enemies.

 

[Melanie]

Was all this worth it Bernie ??????
That is what I would ask Bernie Madoff right now!
Greed is Bernie's devil.....
he has to live with all the lives he ruined.
Now his own son, and grandson has no dad.
R.I.P. Mark Madoff............

I know - the ripple effect of what Bernie did has not ended after he went to jail. Everyone in the Madoff family has been sued, including Mark (for alledgedly profiting from the funds). There's no proof of that of course, or he would be in jail as well. Just folks looking for a bit of money back.

So sorry Mark of what your dad did. It was very selfish and horrific. May you finally have some peace.

MOO

Mel

 

[Melanie]

Why emails at 4 am with 2 year old sleeping? He couldn't be sure on a SATURDAY his messages would be received BEFORE the little guy woke up. Why not a PHONE CALL? He'd be gone before help arrived and he could be sure his son wouldn't be unattended except for a dog and him hanging from the ceiling. I'm not convinced it was suicide. Could be but might not be...

He knew the article about the anniversary was coming out that morning (in fact it came out at midnight). I'm sure at that point he had had enough

MOO

Mel

 

[jjenny]

How horrible. And to make the story even worse, his two year old was at the apartment sleeping.

 

[jjenny]

Why emails at 4 am with 2 year old sleeping? He couldn't be sure on a SATURDAY his messages would be received BEFORE the little guy woke up. Why not a PHONE CALL? He'd be gone before help arrived and he could be sure his son wouldn't be unattended except for a dog and him hanging from the ceiling. I'm not convinced it was suicide. Could be but might not be...

Someone who is presumably depressed doesn't exactly think straight.
Also he might have not wanted to actually talk to anyone.

 

[BuzzieCat]

Supposedly, overall men use more lethal methods for suicide and they do it in such a way that the chance for rescue is limited or downright impossible (i.e., gun). Women more often do it using a slow method that gives them a chance to be found and saved (i.e., overdose).

I think he probably did it without any help, but it's kind of strange that he did it right on the anniversary and with his 2 YO there. Perhaps he really did just suddenly reach the breaking point, but I find it hard to believe he hadn't had any suicidal thoughts at all and then suddenly hung himself, 0 to 60 in one minute. I don't know. I guess people really do choose hanging as a method for suicide - ugh. I doubt all the hangings that have ever been ruled as suicides were actually murders, so it must be something they really do choose.

Perhaps by "no one wants to hear the truth" he meant that no one wanted to hear his protestations of innocence. I do find it hard to believe that at his age (46, not 6) and with his long time of working with his father, he had no idea something was up. Apparently he and his brother were both having trouble getting another job in the financial arena, and then all the lawsuits and the anniversary.

 

[songline]

Supposedly, overall men use more lethal methods for suicide and they do it in such a way that the chance for rescue is limited or downright impossible (i.e., gun). Women more often do it using a slow method that gives them a chance to be found and saved (i.e., overdose).

I think he probably did it without any help, but it's kind of strange that he did it right on the anniversary and with his 2 YO there. Perhaps he really did just suddenly reach the breaking point, but I find it hard to believe he hadn't had any suicidal thoughts at all and then suddenly hung himself, 0 to 60 in one minute. I don't know. I guess people really do choose hanging as a method for suicide - ugh. I doubt all the hangings that have ever been ruled as suicides were actually murders, so it must be something they really do choose.

Perhaps by "no one wants to hear the truth" he meant that no one wanted to hear his protestations of innocence. I do find it hard to believe that at his age (46, not 6) and with his long time of working with his father, he had no idea something was up. Apparently he and his brother were both having trouble getting another job in the financial arena, and then all the lawsuits and the anniversary.

Actually, there is no possible way they could have gotten a job in their industry.
NO WAY AT ALL. The cloud they have hanging over them would make any company fold if anyone would find out that they are working there.
In that industry you have to be squeaky clean, and like many people here have said they do not believe that the sons did not know anything at all.

WELL IMHO Bernie was able to con so many Nobel people, why would he not be able to con his own sons.
Especially since their office was on another floor.
I am not saying they did not know a thing, I am saying BERNIE took the blame and there is no proof otherwise at all.
And Bernie could con so many including those with much more life and business experience then the sons.
ALSO: It is very possible that Bernie would not want his sons to know, but had to tell them when the heat was getting close.

 

[BuzzieCat]

That's part of their problem, they couldn't get a job in the financial industry but it sounds like they still wanted to, if the articles I read were correct.

I would be interested to know if the sons knew the ROI Bernie was claiming for his clients. From what I've read, supposedly if you know anything about finance at all, you know it's not possible to get such a high ROI every year for years on end. There should be great fluctuation. That's part of why the SEC fell down on their job - they saw that unrealistic ROI and did nothing, and anyone who tried to raise a question was hushed, because of Bernie's star power I guess.

You brought up an interesting point earlier. I do wonder what Mr. Picard the trustee gets out of all the lawsuits he files. On the one hand, the Madoff family should not get to keep ill-gotten gains. On the other hand, how much of whatever is recovered will go to victims? Does the trustee get paid by the gov't (he was appointed by a judge)?