GUILTY NY - Bernard Madoff charged in $50 billion fraud, 2008 - dies Apr 2021

[songline]

That's part of their problem, they couldn't get a job in the financial industry but it sounds like they still wanted to, if the articles I read were correct.

I would be interested to know if the sons knew the ROI Bernie was claiming for his clients. From what I've read, supposedly if you know anything about finance at all, you know it's not possible to get such a high ROI every year for years on end. There should be great fluctuation. That's part of why the SEC fell down on their job - they saw that unrealistic ROI and did nothing, and anyone who tried to raise a question was hushed, because of Bernie's star power I guess.

You brought up an interesting point earlier. I do wonder what Mr. Picard the trustee gets out of all the lawsuits he files. On the one hand, the Madoff family should not get to keep ill-gotten gains. On the other hand, how much of whatever is recovered will go to victims? Does the trustee get paid by the gov't (he was appointed by a judge)?

I am not sure who pays him, but I think it is a % of what he recovers.
Long ago I read something about it, cant remember.

WAITE: I just found something / not the original article that I read.
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1901593,00.html
From this article:
Bernie Madoff bankruptcy trustee, Irving H. Picard, may be the hardest working man in the collections business —
and maybe one day the richest.

------------------

I think Madoff sons knew that nobody can hire them, but had hopes that one day it will change.

You are right about the ROI, but in my book, the banks defrauded everyone.
IMHO they needed a scandal during the time the banks were all falling. They all knew the bubble will bust.
I know Bernie did wrong, but he is also the scapegoat for what is wrong throughout this country.
Since when is it, ok for Banks to create a mortgage market for the purpose of defrauding people? They created the BALLON MARKET. How many people are losing their homes because of it?
It is not different.....

 

[animlzrule]

This guy was into the Ponzi scheme up to his eyeballs. (IMO) I don't think there is anything hinky about his death. I think he spiraled into an abyss of self pity and fear, knowing that he was going to have great difficulty maintaining his previous lifestyle in the future and the extent of his culpability was going to be exposed during subsequent lawsuits and other court proceedings. It's just another testament to his character that he would make such a dramatic exit with his little 2 year old son sleeping in the next room. I fervently dispute the whole notion of suicide being "selfish", however, his manipulation of his wife via e-mail and setting up a family member to witness his body hanging in his home with his son potentially waking up at any moment was a perfect example of selfish. His death was consistent with the way he lived his life, one could say.

 

[songline]

This guy was into the Ponzi scheme up to his eyeballs. I don't think there is anything hinky about his death. I think he spiraled into an abyss of self pity and fear, knowing that he was going to have great difficulty maintaining his previous lifestyle in the future and the extent of his culpability was going to be exposed during subsequent lawsuits and other court proceedings. It's just another testament to his character that he would make such a dramatic exit with his little 2 year old son sleeping in the next room. I fervently dispute the whole notion of suicide being "selfish", however, his manipulation of his wife via e-mail and setting up a family member to witness his body hanging in his home with his son potentially waking up at any moment was a perfect example of selfish. His death was consistent with the way he lived his life, one could say.

Chrystal balls have always mystified me.
Having said that - we all have a right to an opinion.
Facts should be offered with a link.

 

[Steely]

Someone who is presumably depressed doesn't exactly think straight.
Also he might have not wanted to actually talk to anyone.

You are totally right and toxicology reports may indicate drugs and/or alcohol played a role also.

Could a killer(s) have broken in while he was asleep and held a gun to that toddler? He might even have slipped the leash on himself thinking it was the only way to save his son. Sometimes fathers will "take their children with them" or their whole families for that matter but kill yourself but leave your only son, a two year old, to possibly get eaten by the family dog? Ummm....I'm not sure he didn't commit suicide and maybe he KNEW his wife would not fail to check her email but I'm not convinced and I'm sure LE isn't either.

 

[songline]

You are totally right and toxicology reports may indicate drugs and/or alcohol played a role also.

Could a killer(s) have broken in while he was asleep and held a gun to that toddler? He might even have slipped the leash on himself thinking it was the only way to save his son. Sometimes fathers will "take their children with them" or their whole families for that matter but kill yourself but leave your only son, a two year old, to possibly get eaten by the family dog? Ummm....I'm not sure he didn't commit suicide and maybe he KNEW his wife would not fail to check her email but I'm not convinced and I'm sure LE isn't either.

Rich people have every gadget on earth. Blackberries are how most folks today get all their e-mails.
She could have even read her e-mail in the toilet, grocery store, bed. Anywhere.
I am sure they had anI phone or a blackberrie. I am sure that they got each others mail in a matter of seconds.
ALL my friends who are couples have it.
What about texting. Even poor poeple can do that.
As for the family dog eating the baby? that is reaching

 

[arielilane]

How sad that Mark Madoff ended his life, especially with his son in the apartment.

Today, December 11, 2010, marks the two year anniversary of Bernie Madoff's arrest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff

 

[Steely]

Rich people have every gadget on earth. Blackberries are how most folks today get all their e-mails.
She could have even read her e-mail in the toilet, grocery store, bed. Anywhere.
I am sure they had anI phone or a blackberrie. I am sure that they got each others mail in a matter of seconds.
ALL my friends who are couples have it.
What about texting. Even poor poeple can do that.
As for the family dog eating the baby? that is reaching

Yeah, you're right about the dog...I'm reaching about the eating part, probably. He might have locked his dog away from his son too. And yes, his lawyer probably checks his email on Saturday...at some point.

Are you sure "they got each others mail in a matter of seconds"????????
Don't you have to be AWAKE to read a text or an email?

 

[jjenny]

You are totally right and toxicology reports may indicate drugs and/or alcohol played a role also.

Could a killer(s) have broken in while he was asleep and held a gun to that toddler? He might even have slipped the leash on himself thinking it was the only way to save his son. Sometimes fathers will "take their children with them" or their whole families for that matter but kill yourself but leave your only son, a two year old, to possibly get eaten by the family dog? Ummm....I'm not sure he didn't commit suicide and maybe he KNEW his wife would not fail to check her email but I'm not convinced and I'm sure LE isn't either.

A killer? Held a gun to his son? And then what? Let him text his wife before making him kill himself? I don't think so. I think it's pretty clear this was a suicide. If the guy was used to living in the lap of luxury for most of his life and then all of it collapsed why would it be surprising he did not want to go on? Of course he should have been thinking of his children but someone who is presumably depressed isn't exactly thinking rationally. And by the way, the dog is a labradoodle. I sincerely doubt the guy would be concerned about the labradoodle eating his son.

 

[jjenny]

Yeah, you're right about the dog...I'm reaching about the eating part, probably. He might have locked his dog away from his son too. And yes, his lawyer probably checks his email on Saturday...at some point.

Are you sure "they got each others mail in a matter of seconds"????????
Don't you have to be AWAKE to read a text or an email?

Their dog is a labradoodle. As far as I can tell labradoodles aren't into eating children. They are considered to be friendly and good with children.

 

[Danaya]

The guy killed himself.

It's all very, very sad.

 

[Steely]

Their dog is a labradoodle. As far as I can tell labradoodles aren't into eating children. They are considered to be friendly and good with children.

Thanks for responding. No breed of dog is safe to leave alone with a two year old, especially a dog with NO FOOD and an incessantly crying toddler and for an extended period of time. Again, we don't know if he locked the dog away from the child or not, or if he had reason to be confident his wife would get the message and get help for their child before the child woke up. I do think this is most likely a suicide, but until we learn more information, I am not convinced there isn't a slight chance this was a murder made to look like a suicide.

This dog was a lab mix:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-12-02-face-transplant_x.htm

 

[jjenny]

Thanks for responding. No breed of dog is safe to leave alone with a two year old, especially a dog with NO FOOD and an incessantly crying toddler and for an extended period of time. Again, we don't know if he locked the dog away from the child or not, or if he had reason to be confident his wife would get the message and get help for their child before the child woke up. I do think this is most likely a suicide, but until we learn more information, I am not convinced there isn't a slight chance this was a murder made to look like a suicide.

This dog was a lab mix:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-12-02-face-transplant_x.htm

No food? How do you know the dog had no food?
He could have left the whole bag of dog food out for all I know.

 

[feddup]

Supposedly, overall men use more lethal methods for suicide and they do it in such a way that the chance for rescue is limited or downright impossible (i.e., gun). Women more often do it using a slow method that gives them a chance to be found and saved (i.e., overdose).

I think he probably did it without any help, but it's kind of strange that he did it right on the anniversary and with his 2 YO there. Perhaps he really did just suddenly reach the breaking point, but I find it hard to believe he hadn't had any suicidal thoughts at all and then suddenly hung himself, 0 to 60 in one minute. I don't know. I guess people really do choose hanging as a method for suicide - ugh. I doubt all the hangings that have ever been ruled as suicides were actually murders, so it must be something they really do choose.

Perhaps by "no one wants to hear the truth" he meant that no one wanted to hear his protestations of innocence. I do find it hard to believe that at his age (46, not 6) and with his long time of working with his father, he had no idea something was up. Apparently he and his brother were both having trouble getting another job in the financial arena, and then all the lawsuits and the anniversary.

This isnt the only suicide because of the madoff ponzi scheme....

http://bernardmadoffvictims.org/victims.html

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

I've read that Mark Madoff was the one who gave LE info on his father..it's truly a shame that BM's crime has reached so many and now his sons are victims of what BM sowed..JMHO

NEW YORK — The eldest son of disgraced financier Bernard Madoff hanged himself by a dog leash in his Manhattan apartment on Saturday, the second anniversary of his father's arrest in a multibillion-dollar Ponzi scheme that swindled thousands of investors of their life savings, law enforcement officials said.

Mark Madoff, 46, was found hanging from a ceiling pipe in the living room of his SoHo loft apartment as his 2-year-old son, Nick, slept in a crib in a nearby bedroom, law enforcement officials told NBC News.

Madoff, who reported his father to authorities, had never been criminally charged in the biggest investment fraud in U.S. history that has snared a half-dozen Madoff employees.

Mark Madoff and his brother Andrew have said they were unaware of their father's crimes. But they have been remained under investigation and been named in multiple investor lawsuits accusing them of profiting from the scheme.

A third law enforcement official said Saturday that Mark Madoff's arrest was not imminent, and that investigators pursuing possible charges against him, his brother and his uncle hadn't contacted him for more than a year. The official wasn't authorized to speak publicly about the case and spoke on condition of anonymity.

A source, however, told CNBC that Madoff's friends and family had become worried about him as the two-year anniversary of his father's scandal neared.

Madoff had been increasingly distraught and depressed, said the source, who also spoke on condition of anonymity with CNBC.

His mood grew darker after a new bankruptcy lawsuit was filed against him and his current and former wives, plus their children. It was the first time Bernard Madoff's grandchildren had been targeted in the case.

About 4 a.m. Saturday, Mark Madoff emailed his wife, Stephanie, telling her "I love you" and "send someone to take care of Nick," NBC News reported, quoting an anonymous law enforcement official.

Mark Madoff's body was found by his father-in-law after his wife became concerned after Madoff sent the email, law enforcement officials said. Madoff's wife was at Disney World in Florida with her 4-year-old daughter. Her father found the toddler unharmed, along with a dog.

more
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40617952...ss-us_business

Terrible that MM found the need to do this while his son was napping, probably suspecting his wife would send someone to their home right away after reading that email...The FIL to find him hanging on his dog leash will stay with this man for the rest of his life...being so distraught, you don't think about what this will do to his family...truly sad when desperation distorts your thinking. JMHO

 

[BuzzieCat]

I am not sure who pays him, but I think it is a % of what he recovers.
Long ago I read something about it, cant remember.

WAITE: I just found something / not the original article that I read.
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1901593,00.html
From this article:
Bernie Madoff bankruptcy trustee, Irving H. Picard, may be the hardest working man in the collections business —
and maybe one day the richest.

------------------

I think Madoff sons knew that nobody can hire them, but had hopes that one day it will change.

You are right about the ROI, but in my book, the banks defrauded everyone.
IMHO they needed a scandal during the time the banks were all falling. They all knew the bubble will bust.
I know Bernie did wrong, but he is also the scapegoat for what is wrong throughout this country.
Since when is it, ok for Banks to create a mortgage market for the purpose of defrauding people? They created the BALLON MARKET. How many people are losing their homes because of it?
It is not different.....

IMO Bernie got the jail sentence he deserves, but you are right. All those banks involved in twisting up the mortgage industry should get the same. Somehow, executives rarely seem to get the level of punishment they deserve when they practice wrongdoing on such a large scale. I guess it's okay because they're executives and too big to fail! Bah.

Thanks for the article about the trustee.

 

[songline]

Yeah, you're right about the dog...I'm reaching about the eating part, probably. He might have locked his dog away from his son too. And yes, his lawyer probably checks his email on Saturday...at some point.

Are you sure "they got each others mail in a matter of seconds"????????
Don't you have to be AWAKE to read a text or an email?

BBM - You sure got me there. you would have to be awake.

We found out he wrote the e-mails at 4:00 AM while everyone was sleeping. But this was not a dumb man,
I imagine he calculated how long it might take to die,
In addition, knew when his wife gets up with their 4 year old who was in her possetion.
ALSO: This morning on the news, it stated that he also sent his father in-law an e-mail at 4:00 AM.
So I imagine they got it about 6:00-6:30 and father in-law had to get dressed and get over there. (He does not live in the Soho area). I think Mark calculated the time frame so that his son would still be sleeping.

JMO

 

[songline]

Thanks for responding. No breed of dog is safe to leave alone with a two year old, especially a dog with NO FOOD and an incessantly crying toddler and for an extended period of time. Again, we don't know if he locked the dog away from the child or not, or if he had reason to be confident his wife would get the message and get help for their child before the child woke up. I do think this is most likely a suicide, but until we learn more information, I am not convinced there isn't a slight chance this was a murder made to look like a suicide.

This dog was a lab mix:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-12-02-face-transplant_x.htm

BBM
Some things are constant.
some people wake up in the AM and jump in the shower; some make a pot of coffee first. Just saying.
He would very well know her routine...He knew when she gets up with her 4 year old; he knew she probably calls him in the AM to check on the baby. HE knew certain things that we all would know about a family member.
He did e-mail wife, father in-law and Lawyer too.
ONE FOR SURE would be there in time to get his son.
I think he planned to secure the baby.

 

[songline]

IMO Bernie got the jail sentence he deserves, but you are right. All those banks involved in twisting up the mortgage industry should get the same. Somehow, executives rarely seem to get the level of punishment they deserve when they practice wrongdoing on such a large scale. I guess it's okay because they're executives and too big to fail! Bah.

Thanks for the article about the trustee.

I agree that Bernie deserved the punishment he got, how dare he treat people with so much disregard?
I am sad that he is the only one that is punished and that the banks get away with doing the same thing over and over again.
I do not think that is JUSTICE! I do think that it would contribute to Mark's depression.
It certainly would make me crazy to feel helpless about that.

Mark has not talked with his parents since this happened. It is like suddenly you are an orphan.
With a huge burden to bear.

 

[Penelope]

I agree with much of what all of you have said in your comments. However, I just want to add that I am sad that Mark Madoff ended his life this way. I imagine he was a product of his parents, particularly his infamous father. Mark and his brother were once innocent children born into this family. Everything they are they learned from their father and mother. Unfortunately, they probably learned many wrong things, especially if they were involved in Madoff's Ponzi scheme.

Of course, Mark could have turned over the many $millions he made from working in his father's firm, as well as the properties he owned -- and that may have helped him to show the world that he was not involved in the illegal activities, but he did not. That may be due to guilt, or due to the way he was raised and an inability to give up his precious wealth -- we will never know.

I pray that his 2 year old son is able to grow up and steer clear of the family "curse" and be an honest and productive member of society.

 

[BuzzieCat]

It is sad he couldn't find another way. Perhaps eventually he could have found another career to enjoy and provide for his family, but with that last name it might have been difficult to even get a job at Burger King, I don't know. He must have known it would be years and years before all this litigation would be over. And I'm sure it would be difficult to live in luxury for 46 years and then lose some or all of it. Just very sad and, as others have said, Bernie is the one who gave this to his family. He wasn't just cheating his clients. What was going through his mind? How did he live with that every day for 50 years and knowing that it could all come crumbling down at any time. Maybe he's some kind of sick thrill seeker or something.

I am curious about how the whole business worked. If it was based on a Ponzi scheme, then how could the rest of it operate in a seemingly legit manner that the employees wouldn't see the problems? I'm sure a secretary or someone like that wouldn't know, but if he wasn't really investing his clients' money, what were all the financial-type employees doing?