NY NY - Ellery, Rte 17, WhtFem 30-37, UP15489 193UFNY, GSW, poss from Canada or Europe, note, clothes, Dec'83

[Bit of hope]

IMHO I think looking too closely into what the meaning of the note in her pocket is strays us from focusing on the facts we have about this Doe. I could come up with a billion theories to what this shorthand could have stood for, but unless we can talk to the author of that handwriting all is speculation and keeps us from keeping our eye on the ball. Again all JMO. Her Jacket being from Europe and not exported, her IUD being from Europe, and her dental work being that of expensive European dental work ALL TOGETHER point to a likely CONNECTION to Europe. I really think she was just visiting the states. True Canada is very close to the border there, but I like to stick with the facts. Found in NY with mostly European identifiers. I really think no one ever reported her missing b/c maybe whoever murdered her would have been responsible for reporting her missing... aka they never reported her missing though they claimed to have or gave a bogus story about her being voluntarily missing to her loved ones. JMO.

I think she is from Europe, or European ancestry...maybe travelled to the USA to visit family, maybe immigrated once or is from SA or another country where they had European colonies... The jacket I think you mean the Italian Camisole not exported....couldn't even be hers....I'm convinced now (to see the difference between European and American handwriting) that it was most likely an European handwriting, ...but the note is not bringing us any further, we can search and search what it could mean, although the telex theory could open up a new lead....Then we have the wart/mole problem....pffff. Not to forget the scar on her through.. I wish I had the actual file...of what is kept of it....I'm sure that LE did everything in their power...later....much later when case came up again and a lot of info was not collected or got lost....pffffff

 

[Al Ka]

I won't get into the reasons, but a lot of the better quality IUDs are not available in the US and it's fairly common for US women, particularly from the northeast, to go to Canada to get them. Hamilton, Toronto, Montreal are all within a fairly easy drive of most of New York and New England, as well as Pennsylvania and Michigan. So it wouldn't surprise me if she's from the region.

Of course she might be a recent immigrant or a tourist. She might also have been a long-term resident who had been an immigrant at one time, or perhaps she was visiting family who had come here.

Also, somebody asked upthread about records of people leaving the US. I don't know if it's always been this way, but generally there isn't any record kept of people leaving the country, only entering.

Thank you Carbuff. I think this is quite important and relevant information to consider (that US women traveled to Canada for contraception). Based on this we should not exclude her being American (or Canadian or somewhere from Europe).

 

[Al Ka]

Guicy, you are obviously quite knowledgable but it seems you chewed on the bone and won't let go no matter what. And I don't mean it in bad way in any shape or form. Based on the facts of this case there is Zero link pointing to South Africa at this moment. The same as there is no link to Moldovia, Ghana or Vietnam....

To someone who pointed to GDR (German Democratic Republic). Revolution happened in 1989, six years after this lady was already dead. You could ask for visa prior years to revolution, but they would not give you visa as it was Not allowed to travel to the West. You could try and run away, and some did. But if you by any chance survived and not shot by trying then your family left behind would be shot or terrorized till the end. Those who managed to travel from Communist Block officially in those years were only a few, well connected. Also import/export with West was not allowed, so she would not have Dutch or Belgian contraception. Other part, Western Germany is totally different story.

About wart on the eye. There is definitely one there. I have seen more clear photo some time ago and it was visible. I have no idea over the years at which link that was but if I come accross it again I will post it here.

Husband theory. There are many murders by husbands but almost none of them include rape. Mainly its just to get rid of them for whatever reasons. EX partners, EX bf and strangers that is completely different story and those should be considered.

There were some other cases (also mentioned here previously) of the same way people being shot in US (shot in back, front and head). And I think those could be revisited.

What cought my eye, that Motel in Canada from note is near Airport (in Vancouver) and LE mentioned notes pointing to yet another airport, JFK in NY. Was she travelling perhaps for business? Flying in to Vancouver from Europe and flying out back to Europe from NY? She has been seen day prior in Pennsylvania, truck stop. Maybe travelling as passanger in truck with some delivery from Vancouver Airport to NY airport... Or well, she could just have been hitchhiking...

 

[Giucy]

I won't let go until I have more solid evidence. One way or another.
I don't want to rehash the same speculations over and over.

Now, I wait for SA input before moving on

 

[Al Ka]

Guicy, you speak French. If you find a time, would you be so kind to translate her flyer to French? We could circulate that online in some parts of Canada, even though I am not sure which parts there are French which are English. But we could concentrate around Vancouver area. That would be start.

The same, if someone speaks Italian here, it would be Very beneficial to have flyer in that language too and we could circulate that on Italian websites etc. Maybe someone somewhere will notice it, recognize her.

If not flyer, then perhaps the best is to translate information from Doe network. Thank You.

Her profile: http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/193ufny.html

 

[Baudelaire]

Guicy, you are obviously quite knowledgable but it seems you chewed on the bone and won't let go no matter what. And I don't mean it in bad way in any shape or form. Based on the facts of this case there is Zero link pointing to South Africa at this moment. The same as there is no link to Moldovia, Ghana or Vietnam....

To someone who pointed to GDR (German Democratic Republic). Revolution happened in 1989, six years after this lady was already dead. You could ask for visa prior years to revolution, but they would not give you visa as it was Not allowed to travel to the West. You could try and run away, and some did. But if you by any chance survived and not shot by trying then your family left behind would be shot or terrorized till the end. Those who managed to travel from Communist Block officially in those years were only a few, well connected. Also import/export with West was not allowed, so she would not have Dutch or Belgian contraception. Other part, Western Germany is totally different story.

About wart on the eye. There is definitely one there. I have seen more clear photo some time ago and it was visible. I have no idea over the years at which link that was but if I come accross it again I will post it here.

Husband theory. There are many murders by husbands but almost none of them include rape. Mainly its just to get rid of them for whatever reasons. EX partners, EX bf and strangers that is completely different story and those should be considered.

There were some other cases (also mentioned here previously) of the same way people being shot in US (shot in back, front and head). And I think those could be revisited.

What cought my eye, that Motel in Canada from note is near Airport (in Vancouver) and LE mentioned notes pointing to yet another airport, JFK in NY. Was she travelling perhaps for business? Flying in to Vancouver from Europe and flying out back to Europe from NY? She has been seen day prior in Pennsylvania, truck stop. Maybe travelling as passanger in truck with some delivery from Vancouver Airport to NY airport... Or well, she could just have been hitchhiking...

If she was on a business trip, wouldn't she hire a car instead of hitchhiking?

Did the ME specify if sexual assault occurred pre or post mortem? It could be rough sex which brings in the boyfriend theory again. JMO

There are two pics on her facebook page which are quite clear. The ridge above the right eye is present above the left eye as well, which makes me think its a facial muscle above her eye not a wart. CarlK got it right IMO, the wart or mole is on her left cheek under the eye, not above it.

I speak Afrikaans and Dutch, I will translate her doe network page and distribute it to the Pink Ladies in SA and on the dutch websites.

Because of the strong European suggestions, I do believe somebody in Europe is missing a daughter or a sister. Time is of the essence here as this is over 30 years old already.

 

[Giucy]

Guicy, you speak French. If you find a time, would you be so kind to translate her flyer to French? We could circulate that online in some parts of Canada, even though I am not sure which parts there are French which are English. But we could concentrate around Vancouver area. That would be start.

The same, if someone speaks Italian here, it would be Very beneficial to have flyer in that language too and we could circulate that on Italian websites etc. Maybe someone somewhere will notice it, recognize her.

If not flyer, then perhaps the best is to translate information from Doe network. Thank You.

Her profile: http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/193ufny.html

I speak Italian too.

I contacted Penelope Italia, the Italian charity for missing and unidentified. However, I've never heard back.

Chi l'ha visto, the Italian TV show, may be interested too. However, they prefer having the profile in English and translate it themselves.
Chi l'ha visto is a household name for Italian people.

For the Canada, you can send her flyer at Enfant Retour Quebec. Contrary to their name, they are not exclusively about Quebec, and they also include adults.
Because for them, all missing persons are children of someone. Quebec is because they are in Quebec.
They are at the best place to help for translation and circulating the flyer.
Despite my knowledge, I am not the best placed to do that.

 

[Al Ka]

Ok, so if any one else will volunteer to translate her Doe network page to French and Italian and then post it here I would really appreciate it. Then we or anyone else can just copy and circulate it widely online, not just official shows or authorities.

(Guicy, don't sell yourself short. I am very sure your French is better than mine, which is Zero, lol).

 

[Giucy]

Oh, I understand better your request. Sorry, not well woken up !! (OT, and dealing with nicknamed Geriatrix 's mood)

I'll do it ! Yup !!

For Dutch, maybe Bit of hope will be ok. It's her mother tongue.

 

[Bit of hope]

Guicy, you speak French. If you find a time, would you be so kind to translate her flyer to French? We could circulate that online in some parts of Canada, even though I am not sure which parts there are French which are English. But we could concentrate around Vancouver area. That would be start.

The same, if someone speaks Italian here, it would be Very beneficial to have flyer in that language too and we could circulate that on Italian websites etc. Maybe someone somewhere will notice it, recognize her.

If not flyer, then perhaps the best is to translate information from Doe network. Thank You.

Her profile: http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/193ufny.html

Romulus did an Italian translation once and asked together with Giucy and me for attention at some Italian missing persons parties, a long time ago...never heard anything back. Did you Giucy? I must have it somewhere, I hope still have it. I will look it up. Back to focusing on work now.

 

[Giucy]

Never heard anything back either

 

[DaisyChains]

YES all these folks who can translate and present flyers overseas are EXACTLY what we need in this case. Thank you all!!!!

I believe in my heart someone in Europe knows her!

Thanks Al Ka about the info on Germany. For some reason initially I had read her missing date as 1989 incorrectly so that is what got me interested in the Germany theory specifically. Even so, I still believe she was likely Dutch or German or Italian based on physical evidence. More likely German. Per Al Ka, maybe West German as she would have been more free to travel from that area.

she *looks* EXTREMELY SLAVIC to me now that I have seen her post mortem pic (many Slavic ppls had connections to Germany). She looks like she is from Bosnia or the Czech Republic or something...Have lots of Slavic friends who resemble her look. I think her postmortem picture looks very different than her original sketch recon now that I know what she actually looked like.

 

[DaisyChains]

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases-int/3718dfaut.html

has this woman been submitted yet?

another pic of Elfried here http://www.oesterreichfindeteuch.at...r-elfriede-aus-wels-vermisst-seit-23-07-1980/

 

[DaisyChains]

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases-int/1177dfbel.html why does it say she is missing in 1982 and then says she was missing in 1984? Which one is it?

 

[carbuff]

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases-int/1177dfbel.html why does it say she is missing in 1982 and then says she was missing in 1984? Which one is it?

That is confusing.

I think it might mean she left Belgium in July of 1982, went to Great Britain where she gave birth a month later, then two years later went to Canada? But it's very confusing.

It also says she's blonde but none of her pictures show blonde.

 

[Bit of hope]

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases-int/3718dfaut.html

has this woman been submitted yet?

another pic of Elfried here http://www.oesterreichfindeteuch.at...r-elfriede-aus-wels-vermisst-seit-23-07-1980/

I considered her too, but I never brought her up, because of the story. I don't say it's impossible Ellery Doe could be her, but how likely is that considering the story. Ideas?

Since 07.23.1980 the 29 yrs. old (would be32 in 1983, when UID is found) Elfriede Schönberger from Wels is missing. Shewas last seen in Austria, Oberösterreich, prefecture: Wels, ZIP: 4600, street:Fischergasse, house number unknown. She has dark blonde hair and is 160 - 180cm (UID is approx. 160 cm) Special features: unknown.

More details:
Elfriede Schönberger was born in 1951 (UIDis born approx. between 1945-1950) in Fischlham, district Wels-Land. She workedas a secretary in a company in Wels. The fun-loving, unmarried woman spent the nightof July 23 to 24 1980, in a pub called "Tenne" at the Fischergasse(fishlane/street) in Wels. Police investigations revealed that Schönberger leftthe pub around 1.30 at night in the company of a man. This man couldn’t befound until today, which is why he may be in connection with the disappearanceof Elfriede Schönberger or at least an important witness. Schönberger disappearedfrom the pub without a trace, together with her car, a Fiat 127 with theregistration number 0.116.048, which is also never found.

On the basis of numerous media reports,but also because of own research by the Schönberger family, there were numerousindications of her possible whereabouts. Among other things, a truck driver hascredibly claimed to have seen her in the company of two men in the TheodorSchneller School in Amman (Jordan). Unfortunately, this has not resulted in apromising lead.

 

[Bit of hope]

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases-int/1177dfbel.html why does it say she is missing in 1982 and then says she was missing in 1984? Which one is it?

She was considered up the thread. https://www.politie.nl/en/wanted-and-missing/missing-adults/1982/juli/11-anna-agnes-maria-neeft.html From the Dutch missing persons site.

Missing from Brussels since 7-22-1982.
Ansje was pregnant when she disappeared with her 4-year old son from Brussels. She had given birth in august 1982 in England to a second son. After that nothing has been heard of her and her children. She is possibly staying in England or in Canada.

She has blue eyes.

Per Doe network: She made an unconfirmed phone call to a friend December 1994.

 

[DaisyChains]

I considered her too, but I never brought her up, because of the story. I don't say it's impossible Ellery Doe could be her, but how likely is that considering the story. Ideas?

Since 07.23.1980 the 29 yrs. old (would be32 in 1983, when UID is found) Elfriede Schönberger from Wels is missing. Shewas last seen in Austria, Oberösterreich, prefecture: Wels, ZIP: 4600, street:Fischergasse, house number unknown. She has dark blonde hair and is 160 - 180cm (UID is approx. 160 cm) Special features: unknown.

More details:
Elfriede Schönberger was born in 1951 (UIDis born approx. between 1945-1950) in Fischlham, district Wels-Land. She workedas a secretary in a company in Wels. The fun-loving, unmarried woman spent the nightof July 23 to 24 1980, in a pub called "Tenne" at the Fischergasse(fishlane/street) in Wels. Police investigations revealed that Schönberger leftthe pub around 1.30 at night in the company of a man. This man couldn’t befound until today, which is why he may be in connection with the disappearanceof Elfriede Schönberger or at least an important witness. Schönberger disappearedfrom the pub without a trace, together with her car, a Fiat 127 with theregistration number 0.116.048, which is also never found.

On the basis of numerous media reports,but also because of own research by the Schönberger family, there were numerousindications of her possible whereabouts. Among other things, a truck driver hascredibly claimed to have seen her in the company of two men in the TheodorSchneller School in Amman (Jordan). Unfortunately, this has not resulted in apromising lead.

I do think it is interesting the man she was last with has never been seen again. If she was actually seen later in Jordan with 2 men then foul play around the time of her disappearance is unlikely. From her picture she looks like a traveler. Could this man or 2 men have convinced her to start a new life? Not sure if Elfried ever gave birth though.

idkw, but she could have been convinced to be a drug runner (she could smuggle easily she looks innocent) or could have been trafficked? Or was she just a voluntary runaway who is still alive somewhere?

 

[Baudelaire]

I thought perhaps. The mole is in the right place. Can eye colour change after death?

 

[Baudelaire]

I am waiting to hear back from the pink ladies if they'll distribute her flyer as she is an adult.