NY NY - Ellery, Rte 17, WhtFem 30-37, UP15489 193UFNY, GSW, poss from Canada or Europe, note, clothes, Dec'83

[Bit of hope]

Yesterday...on my birthday....I read a lot of what is listed under the following link http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/

Apart from the fact that it's a very interesting look into the history of apartheid, the anti-forces and the horrible violation of human rights..I was searching for any "proof" that the governmental security "squads" would really go so far that they would search and destroy people as far as in Canada or America. The government of SA had a connection with America in the sense that they had the same so called threat of the security or "enemy"; Russia and the communists and worked together. There was a large intelligence network amongst them.

SA has killed people outside their own borders (anti-apartheid forces) but as far as I could read now that was in neighboring countries in Africa. Maybe when you read all the hearings (almost not done, they are wordily transcripts, it will take a least a day) you can find some of the individual assassination cases in Western country's. This could indeed be the case, knowing so much more now off what did happen during the apartheid era.

Given the facts around getting the truth out of what happened to the missing and killed persons and where the body's are (the political anti-apartheid force using violence was very intensive targeted) the secrecy, the covering up, the delay's in the court, political games and protecting certain people and other things, I'm not positive about the changes we will identify Ellery Doe, being one of them. But my is bit of hope.....

 

[Giucy]

The list of ANC members died in exile will give you a (small) overview : http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/hrvtrans/submit/anctruth.htm#ancdied
Dulcie September was assassinated in Paris (France) in 1988. I know it's later than 1983, but yes, it happened.

G.D.R.
1 Pitso, Sello 00/00/00

HUNGARY
1 Moteka, Godfrey 28/11/88

They are listed as "death by suicide" but we can't be sure that it's accurate.
Also, "death of natural causes" in GDR, USA, UK... were not necessarily natural. Think about the fact that police & military used undetectable poisons to make appear as a natural death (when such death was not so).


Bear in mind, this list is far from accounting all the deceased in exile. The PAC (Pan African Congress) did not even attempt to draft a list of deceased in exile. So, the fact that the majority of deaths are listed in bordering countries does not detract the possibility that our JD could be a victim of apartheid.

I would go so far that the note may be a way, for her killer, to prevent her ID as a victim of apartheid.

In the TRC final report dealing with disappearances & deaths in exile, it is said very clearly that the list of dead in exile is far from complete.

 

[Giucy]

More about Dulcie September : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulcie_September
The French far-right leader in those days even gave Dulcie September's personal address at the French TV in 1985 (INA's website, the French official site for TV archive).
To date, this is the only certain case of activist leader killed in a Western country.
But bear in mind, not all activists in Western countries have been accounted. The only more or less accurate list is the ANC's list. And even if other anti-apartheid groups had maintained a list -which is not the case-, it is still very difficult to uncover the fate of the missings in exile 20 years after the end of apartheid.

I handed our JD case at Khulumani. They are much more skilled at uncovering if it's actually a crime of apartheid than we can be. They have resource we don't have on Websleuths because it's beyond our specialty. .
However, they won't have a further look at our JD before maybe 2 weeks because they will be in Court starting tomorrow morning.
Khulumani told me very clearly that there is no political will to find out, even less prosecute, crimes of apartheid. Khulumani lobbies very hard for a change, and even with all their resource, it's much easier said than done.

What we can do now is supporting Khulumani and sending to them any supplemental info. I stay in touch with them and I'll tell you any update as soon as I have any update.
Now, we need to be patient. We've already done a lot, and we must accept that we need a specialized help beyond Websleuths abilities.
Bear with me, Websleuths is still a good website, but enforced disappearances is beyond Websleuths' competence.

Accepting that we are powerless doesn't mean giving up hope. It means, for me, accepting that this case is too specific and needs more specialized help than we can provide.
OTOH, I am still hopeful that Khulumani and other specialists will look at the case & will be able to find out more. Now, we can't speculate at how much more they'll uncover.

Now, the only thing I can do for Websleuths is follow up with the SA association.

 

[Giucy]

Ok, I found some South African handwriting of the 1980's from dompasses (the infamous passes Black & colored people had to carry until 1986)

I find strong similarities with the handwritten words on the note. Numbers 1 and 7 are different, but the letters bear similarities in my perception.

What are your thoughts ?

Sorry if I didn't do a good side by side, hope you can see something.


1) a dompass picture
2) note found with the victim
3) dompass picture 2
4) dompass picture 3

 

[Bit of hope]

More about Dulcie September : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulcie_September
The French far-right leader in those days even gave Dulcie September's personal address at the French TV in 1985 (INA's website, the French official site for TV archive).
To date, this is the only certain case of activist leader killed in a Western country.
But bear in mind, not all activists in Western countries have been accounted. The only more or less accurate list is the ANC's list. And even if other anti-apartheid groups had maintained a list -which is not the case-, it is still very difficult to uncover the fate of the missings in exile 20 years after the end of apartheid.

I handed our JD case at Khulumani. They are much more skilled at uncovering if it's actually a crime of apartheid than we can be. They have resource we don't have on Websleuths because it's beyond our specialty. .
However, they won't have a further look at our JD before maybe 2 weeks because they will be in Court starting tomorrow morning.
Khulumani told me very clearly that there is no political will to find out, even less prosecute, crimes of apartheid. Khulumani lobbies very hard for a change, and even with all their resource, it's much easier said than done.

What we can do now is supporting Khulumani and sending to them any supplemental info. I stay in touch with them and I'll tell you any update as soon as I have any update.
Now, we need to be patient. We've already done a lot, and we must accept that we need a specialized help beyond Websleuths abilities.
Bear with me, Websleuths is still a good website, but enforced disappearances is beyond Websleuths' competence.

Accepting that we are powerless doesn't mean giving up hope. It means, for me, accepting that this case is too specific and needs more specialized help than we can provide.
OTOH, I am still hopeful that Khulumani and other specialists will look at the case & will be able to find out more. Now, we can't speculate at how much more they'll uncover.

Now, the only thing I can do for Websleuths is follow up with the SA association.

You have taken this case much further....thank you so much for all your efforts. I sure hope something is coming out of it and it's the right direction.

 

[Bit of hope]

Ok, I found some South African handwriting of the 1980's from dompasses (the infamous passes Black & colored people had to carry until 1986)

I find strong similarities with the handwritten words on the note. Numbers 1 and 7 are different, but the letters bear similarities in my perception.

What are your thoughts ?

Sorry if I didn't do a good side by side, hope you can see something.

1) a dompass picture
2) note found with the victim
3) dompass picture 2
4) dompass picture 3

Thank you. I'm not sure. Some look more like the American writing style, nr 2 for example, others nr 3 for example looks more like the note. 1 and 7 are different and I find them the most typical for European handwriting compared to American.

 

[Giucy]

More SA handwritings :

Mandela's handwriting : https://www.google.com/culturalinst...83245679939895,"height":0.44286335518788855}}

Another one by Mandela, in 1962 : https://www.thesouthafrican.com/mandela-thanks-uk-government-in-letter-published-for-first-time/

SA singer, 1998 : https://cdn.globalauctionplatform.c...c1e2a-df9f-467d-df37-103ff7121017/540x360.jpg

SA entry stamp, 2012 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:South_African_Entry_Stamp_2.jpg

Would you mind comparing with the note found on the victim ?

 

[Baudelaire]

Hi there Guicy

I have a couple of thoughts, carbuff messaged me to see if I could add any info.

1. Looking at the morgue photo and the sketches there is a difference in the description. The description says the JD had a wart above her left eye. There is no wart above her left eye in the morgue pic or the sketch, the wart in the sketch is next to her nose on her cheek. I don't know if it could have moved from next to nose to the side of her cheek during facial reconstruction. The morgue pic also does not show any mole behind her left ear.

2. This lady is definitely white and European. She is not a coloured lady. A coloured lady n South Africa is half-dutch half-khoisan, there are distinctive characteristics such as thick lips, negroid hair and a wide nose. I apologise for the word negroid, but I have no idea what the correct term is for black curly hair. This lady's hair is European, there is no (sorry) negro curl to it. Racially she would identify as white, regardless of country of origin.

3. I don't think it's Borup, there is no wart anywhere. Borup was one of thousands protesting Apartheid, which was ironically anti-communist in policy. Unless she was big in the ANC, security forces in South Africa would not go chasing after her. Like the lady in Paris, she had many connections and was facilitating the ANC.

4. The dompass issue confounds me. The dompass was issued to blacks, indians and coloureds. Not white people.

5. Her identification if she was from SA would have been South African, only english speaking South Africans were allowed dual citizenship and then only with Britain. She could not hold dual citizenship for South Africa and Italy for example.

6. If Khulumani say the IUD was available in SA in the 70's and 80's then it could be. The problem with the UID is that it would have to be inserted by a private medical practitioner, the state would not pay for it. She would have to have it inserted by a coloured doctor probably in District 6 and I don't know when District 6 was abolished and it's people relocated. That would be the case if she was a coloured lady, but she is not.

7. If she came from SA with a British UID that would be possible. At the time 1983, South Africa was still being sanctioned by many countries. It is more probable that they designed their own UID.

8. The note. At the top it says Blue Boy Motor Hotel which I assume is a motel. Underneath it gives a telephone number and next to it a telex number which ends in five digits. Could the numbers be telex numbers? In SA in the early 80's to diall my old home phone number you would dial (within JHB) 58-7382, outside JHB you would dial 011 58 7382. The two digit 58 turned into a three digit 828 in the early 90's, making it 011 828 7382, or 828 7382.

9. Could the letters be abbreviation of a place with the telex number written next to it?

10. I believe there is an airport or there was one close to where she was found. Does E.R. sound like a highway name or road name leading to the airport? The other numbers could indicate a locker number. Entrance 2 of airport, section F8, locker 4824?

11. By running the letters for Sas. K. R. Gr/A - I get Saasveld and Sas van Gent in the Netherlands. This is assuming the letters are an abbrieviation for a place and the digits are the telex numbers. K.R. Ba gives me Koldvereen and Koldvereense Boenboer. S Aog/ S Aog could be St Agatha. All in the Netherlands. But it could mean a place in Belguim, Germany, even Italy.

12. At some stage she was in Italy because she bought a camisole there, it's non export, so the only way it could get from Italy to the US is as part of someone's suitcase.

13. Assuming she came in illegally, she could have done the hop skip from any European country, through Heathrow, on to Canada and down to the US.

14. She is not well heeled, she's staying in or close to a motel for that stationary to get into her pocket. She could be looking for telex numbers in Europe - to send what? What does she have that must get there urgently? She could have delivered drugs to the location if it is one at the bottom of the page and needed to telex that info to three different people in Europe. Once they have the locker number she would be paid. Why else would she want to contact them except for payment?

15. That leaves us with who and why? There's way too much overkill for a professional. If the SA security forces sent someone, they would make it look like a mob killing, consistent with a shot in the mouth. I can't comment on the sexual assault. For a professional that would be like going the extra mile to make it look like something else.

16. Could it be she was with someone and when she gave the message to the dealers back in Europe, this person shot her to get all the money? And made it look like a mob hit or something?

I'll play around with the letters, see if I can point in a direction more specifically. I'll see if there's anything else on the note as well.

 

[Baudelaire]

I read EP at the bottom.

 

[Giucy]

Hi,

I'll answer to a few thoughts you have. However, I am on the smartphone, so easier said than done.
I might need to write a few posts.

1) I know that the dompass was for Black & coloured people. However, the aim here is comparing the note's handwriting with SA handwritings samples from the era.
The only SA handwriting samples I found from the 1980's were the ones from the dompasses.
It is not directly linked to the victim.
The only other SA handwriting sample from 1983 was Mandela on a calendar. You can find the link at my following post.
However, if you have other SA handwriting samples from this era, feel free to post them. The more samples, the better.

2) Per Khulumani's advice, being white doesn't preclude being assassinated because of apartheid. Actually, quite a few Caucasian people fought actively against apartheid.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bettie_du_Toit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Joseph (she acted in loco parentis for Mandela's children)
Not finding other white victimes overseas doesn't mean that SA regime chased only coloured activists. As I said before, not all victims in exile are accounted for.
Her being white doesn't rule out apartheid murder.
And her not having ethnic hair features of colored people doesn't rule out the possibility of being classified as colored. See http://politicsweb.co.za/news-and-analysis/the-strange-career-of-race-classification-in-south
Actually, from her photo, I can't say for 100% sure which classification she belonged because it also depended of her parents'. She could have been classified one way or another based strictly on her appearance.
I think that she might had been possibly be classified as coloured, but I won't put my hand in the fire.
OTOH, whatever racial classification she belonged doesn't rule out the apartheid assassination.

4) Per Khulumani opinion, you didn't need to be a prominent activist abroad to be chased by the SA State in the northern hemisphere.
"You needed to be a prominent activist to be chased by the SA authorities overseas" is a myth. I trust Khulumani's opinion because they are truly specialized in such issues.

5) Her Italian clothing could had been given by someone else. She also could have Italian ancestry without its citizenship.

6) For the UID, Khulumani told me that State doctors commonly did provide this contraceptive, and it was very common for white and colored women. The lady told me that it was a very common contraceptive in State hospitals, for white, coloured.... The lady with whom I spoke is a MD and worked for a State hospital in those days, and she was adament at this point.
It was not restricted to private doctors for white women, nor to coloured population for State hospitals.
I don't know where did you learn what you told me but again, it's inaccurate.

7) Officially, UK sanctioned apartheid in 1983. That's absolutely true.
But the big companies were flouting the embargo to provide money for the regime. It includes medical devices, medicines.... SA did import European IUD by flouting the embargo actually, thanks to big companies' connexions with the regime.
Since yesterday, a People Court is taking place to uncover the massive corruption issue. Including apartheid corruption.
Apartheid corruption was beyond weapons, chemical war.... It included also the medical devices and medicines.
So, the embargo against SA did NOT prevent a white doctor from inserting an European IUD in a white woman at a State hospital.

 

[Giucy]

. She is not well heeled, she's staying in or close to a motel for that stationary to get into her pocket. She could be looking for telex numbers in Europe - to send what? What does she have that must get there urgently? She could have delivered drugs to the location if it is one at the bottom of the page and needed to telex that info to three different people in Europe. Once they have the locker number she would be paid. Why else would she want to contact them except for payment?

Info for the struggle. There was quite a bit of active people in Europe.
The camisole could had been given to her.

15. That leaves us with who and why? There's way too much overkill for a professional. If the SA security forces sent someone, they would make it look like a mob killing, consistent with a shot in the mouth. I can't comment on the sexual assault. For a professional that would be like going the extra mile to make it look like something else.

It was current practice for SA security forces to sexually assault women before killing them. Such overkill was common for SA forces actually: they were trained to overkill.
And covering up the murders.

16. Could it be she was with someone and when she gave the message to the dealers back in Europe, this person shot her to get all the money? And made it look like a mob hit or something?

Again, the someone was not necessarily for money. It was certainely something political.
And again, a sexual assault is not consistant with a drug trafficking murder.

I understand better where you come from. However, some info you said were actually inaccurate.

For the 5 digits number, the phone plan was an open numbering until 2007.
Meaning that you could have a phone number with 5 digits or 7.
Since 2007, it's a close numbering plan, with same digits number in the whole SA.
A 5 digit number can be found in open numbering plans actually.
Not sure if it's English or Greek actually

 

[Baudelaire]

Hi Guicy

1. I don't think any country in the world wrote in any exclusive way in the 1980's that you can point to a handwriting and say it comes from a specific country. To me it looks more European and I think carbuff proved that with the side by side pictures.

2. Where is your link that suggests her country of origin is South Africa and that she was murdered by security forces? I don't see any link other than Borup and she was not South African. So on what are you basing this theory?

3. You state, Kulumani's opinion, so no fact just his opinion. Makes the theory even more tenuous.

4. Whether the camisole was bought or given it strongly suggests a European connection.

6. I base my theory about the UID on personal knowledge. I received contraceptives from the state from 1984-1990, my choices were the injection or the pill.

7. I still don't see the South African connection and if the UID was freely available in Europe, she could come from Europe.

 

[Baudelaire]

Telex not telephone.

You are making the theory fit the evidence. The evidence should lead to your theory and in this case there is no evidence even connecting her with South Africa let alone an Apartheid activist. Sorry, carbuff, I tried.

 

[Bit of hope]

I finally made time to write down the numbers in an American style. I just printed out the note and copied the lines in my hand next to it. This is Western US handwriting from going to school in the 60's and 70's. If anybody else wants to add theirs, that would be interesting.

Surprising thing: there's another line of writing down at the extreme bottom right of the page. I'm not quite sure what it says.

At first thought it could be a date, but no
417(or 2)4/68 B4 EP? Could LE put it there, evidence-number? Can't "see" they would do that?

 

[Giucy]

I already explained myself in this thread.

Khulumani is not a person, but a group of persons. I gave already the elements in previous messages.
I already explained the why and the how. I won't repeat myself over and over for the sake of a virtual argument.


You received the contraceptive in those years there. Ok, you have personal knowledge.

Now, you are entitled to your opinion, freedom of thought & expression.
We can agree to disagree.

I won't discuss any further with you until new elements are provided.

 

[Bit of hope]

Hi there Guicy

I have a couple of thoughts, carbuff messaged me to see if I could add any info.

1. Looking at the morgue photo and the sketches there is a difference in the description. The description says the JD had a wart above her left eye. There is no wart above her left eye in the morgue pic or the sketch, the wart in the sketch is next to her nose on her cheek. I don't know if it could have moved from next to nose to the side of her cheek during facial reconstruction. The morgue pic also does not show any mole behind her left ear.

2. This lady is definitely white and European. She is not a coloured lady. A coloured lady n South Africa is half-dutch half-khoisan, there are distinctive characteristics such as thick lips, negroid hair and a wide nose. I apologise for the word negroid, but I have no idea what the correct term is for black curly hair. This lady's hair is European, there is no (sorry) negro curl to it. Racially she would identify as white, regardless of country of origin.

3. I don't think it's Borup, there is no wart anywhere. Borup was one of thousands protesting Apartheid, which was ironically anti-communist in policy. Unless she was big in the ANC, security forces in South Africa would not go chasing after her. Like the lady in Paris, she had many connections and was facilitating the ANC.

4. The dompass issue confounds me. The dompass was issued to blacks, indians and coloureds. Not white people.

5. Her identification if she was from SA would have been South African, only english speaking South Africans were allowed dual citizenship and then only with Britain. She could not hold dual citizenship for South Africa and Italy for example.

6. If Khulumani say the IUD was available in SA in the 70's and 80's then it could be. The problem with the UID is that it would have to be inserted by a private medical practitioner, the state would not pay for it. She would have to have it inserted by a coloured doctor probably in District 6 and I don't know when District 6 was abolished and it's people relocated. That would be the case if she was a coloured lady, but she is not.

7. If she came from SA with a British UID that would be possible. At the time 1983, South Africa was still being sanctioned by many countries. It is more probable that they designed their own UID.

8. The note. At the top it says Blue Boy Motor Hotel which I assume is a motel. Underneath it gives a telephone number and next to it a telex number which ends in five digits. Could the numbers be telex numbers? In SA in the early 80's to diall my old home phone number you would dial (within JHB) 58-7382, outside JHB you would dial 011 58 7382. The two digit 58 turned into a three digit 828 in the early 90's, making it 011 828 7382, or 828 7382.

9. Could the letters be abbreviation of a place with the telex number written next to it?

10. I believe there is an airport or there was one close to where she was found. Does E.R. sound like a highway name or road name leading to the airport? The other numbers could indicate a locker number. Entrance 2 of airport, section F8, locker 4824?

11. By running the letters for Sas. K. R. Gr/A - I get Saasveld and Sas van Gent in the Netherlands. This is assuming the letters are an abbrieviation for a place and the digits are the telex numbers. K.R. Ba gives me Koldvereen and Koldvereense Boenboer. S Aog/ S Aog could be St Agatha. All in the Netherlands. But it could mean a place in Belguim, Germany, even Italy.

12. At some stage she was in Italy because she bought a camisole there, it's non export, so the only way it could get from Italy to the US is as part of someone's suitcase.

13. Assuming she came in illegally, she could have done the hop skip from any European country, through Heathrow, on to Canada and down to the US.

14. She is not well heeled, she's staying in or close to a motel for that stationary to get into her pocket. She could be looking for telex numbers in Europe - to send what? What does she have that must get there urgently? She could have delivered drugs to the location if it is one at the bottom of the page and needed to telex that info to three different people in Europe. Once they have the locker number she would be paid. Why else would she want to contact them except for payment?

15. That leaves us with who and why? There's way too much overkill for a professional. If the SA security forces sent someone, they would make it look like a mob killing, consistent with a shot in the mouth. I can't comment on the sexual assault. For a professional that would be like going the extra mile to make it look like something else.

16. Could it be she was with someone and when she gave the message to the dealers back in Europe, this person shot her to get all the money? And made it look like a mob hit or something?

I'll play around with the letters, see if I can point in a direction more specifically. I'll see if there's anything else on the note as well.

The wart thing/description(s) has always bothered me to. On this (I think the first) sketch, which is very sharp, you can see both. Can't remember exactly where I get it from..I think Porchelight. I've seen two different PM pics, but neither of them is showing her left side/ear. I was always quite sure that she had a mole on her left cheek, but it could also be a smutch....in the quit light exposed other pm pic I can't see it. The ward above the eye on the pm pics? I don't see it either, but the picture is not very sharp.

 

[Baudelaire]

I played with the photos.


Perhaps we can send an update to Namus and everyone else correcting the location of the mole/wart.

I'm clueless as to the writing at the bottom of the page, but other than a location, nothing else comes to mind.

 

[Bit of hope]

I played with the photos.

Perhaps we can send an update to Namus and everyone else correcting the location of the mole/wart.

I'm clueless as to the writing at the bottom of the page, but other than a location, nothing else comes to mind.

I have this pm picture and if there is a wart it would be above her right eye...there is something there, and a mole on her left cheek...How annoying. Maybe CarlK saw more pics...I don't know...on his recon I don't see a wart above the eyes either...

 

[DaisyChains]

IMHO I think looking too closely into what the meaning of the note in her pocket is strays us from focusing on the facts we have about this Doe. I could come up with a billion theories to what this shorthand could have stood for, but unless we can talk to the author of that handwriting all is speculation and keeps us from keeping our eye on the ball. Again all JMO. Her Jacket being from Europe and not exported, her IUD being from Europe, and her dental work being that of expensive European dental work ALL TOGETHER point to a likely CONNECTION to Europe. I really think she was just visiting the states. True Canada is very close to the border there, but I like to stick with the facts. Found in NY with mostly European identifiers. I really think no one ever reported her missing b/c maybe whoever murdered her would have been responsible for reporting her missing... aka they never reported her missing though they claimed to have or gave a bogus story about her being voluntarily missing to her loved ones. JMO.

 

[Bit of hope]

I have this pm picture and if there is a wart it would be above her right eye...there is something there, and a mole on her left cheek...How annoying. Maybe CarlK saw more pics...I don't know...on his recon I don't see a wart above the eyes either...

BTW I have totally no problems with PM pictures but someone else could....getting them right "in the face"....Didn't realize they were even looking bigger, reacting on your post Beaud. What can we do?