Found Deceased NY - Jennifer Ramsaran, 36, Chenango County, 11 Dec 2012 - #10

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upstate said:
Foxfire said:
A Killing Of Innocence: David Warren: 9780738827841: Amazon.com: Books

Thar she be! We bought one copy and passed it around. I wonder who ended up with it

Wish I could remember what became of her, we have done well with remembering David and not giving her one more ounce of energy ...

If you read the book, you will see a certain mentality about our county. What teen hasn't had to deal with this? It was an eye opener for a lot of people (on so many levels)

Thank You for the flashback Foxfire!
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YW, Upstate, being from the 60s generation, I have flashbacks perfected....
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Foxfire said:
A Killing Of Innocence: David Warren: 9780738827841: Amazon.com: Books


Book Description
Publication Date: August 7, 2000
A Killing Of Innocence follows the often murky trail of justice in the killing of David Eccleston, a 17-year-old honor student by his 14-year-old girlfriend April Dell'olio. The crime, and the trial that followed, resulted in an outcry from the community and political leaders. Now, for the first time, read the behind-the-scenes story of what led to the murder and why the jury reached the decision that shocked the New York legal system. Written by David Warren, an awarding-winning journalist who has worked in Houston, Colorado Springs, Chicago and upstate New York, this book features in-depth interviews with witnesses and the girl accused of the crime. Also featured is evidence never introduced at the trial and statements never before heard. Join the author as he takes us inside the family of a teenage girl facing 25 years in prison. Find out her reaction, and the reaction of her lawyers following the landmark verdict and learn what happened after. This book includes statements never before released to the public and interviews with officers who were at the scene.
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http://www.evesun.com/news/stories/...r-One-Friends-Reflection-Fifteen-Years-Later/
 
Foxfire said:
Horsenaround60, after six decades of life and two and a half decades working in public safety. I have never witnessed a crowd being drawn in by the announcement of a BOMB being located.. This would be analogous to everyone on the beach being drawn to the ocean when someone yells 'SHARK'...

This is an excellent example of Law Enforcement Agency utilizing an antiquate strategy of silence & misinformation, carried over from the J. Edgar Hoover FBI days, imo. Silence, and to misinform the public by the ones sworn to provide public safety should be an embarrassment, and shines a dim light on the departments professionalism imo..

The media management strategy of a department is a reflection of their overall effectiveness, imo...
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I thought I responded to this. :floorlaugh: Horsenaround60 is probably dead on! So sad, but true... Hence the book in future posts "Killing of Innocence" We small town people get too bored for our own good :seeya:
 
upstate said:
I thought I responded to this. :floorlaugh: Horsenaround60 is probably dead on! So sad, but true... Hence the book in future posts "Killing of Innocence" We small town people get too bored for our own good :seeya:
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Upstate, guess I should have said, '
The media management strategy of a Sheriff's Department, or lack there of, is a reflection of the Departments overall professionalism and effectiveness, imo...
 
'Folks, you can't run a 21st century Sheriffs Department utilizing antiquated silence strategies from the 20th century.. We are in the communication's era. Most investigations are solved due to an aware public's tip. Silence by Law Enforcement Agencies via MS Media only leads to innocent victims lives lost and mounting cold cases, imo...
FBI founder & Director J. Edgar Hoover, had no idea that facebook would be available to the general public in 2005 or that everyone would have instant communication with cell phones, analogous to a security camera across the USA.. CC Sheriff Cutter needs to smell the roses, imo...

'Don't make me have to resort to the shattered Vase theory'...
 
One a somber note...for those wondering...there are options for many causes on a death certificate...and this varies by who is filling it out. An autopsy may be required, and certainly if there is any suspicion regarding the COD, and that is separate from the DC.
Having been a person who has unfortunately held many of them in my hands...the causes of death can be several things...but in the end..it is that box that states whether it is suicide, murder, natural causes or undetermined etc.

An example might be this....
Frog Deceased
COD= murder
second to= being run over
third=because frog was blind
I know...poor frog... :facepalm:

so for example only...
JR deceased with pertinent info being supplied, such as DOB, Residence, Parents, etc.
For example only...JR listed as COD-hypothermia
secondary cause -due to head trauma
additional cause-due to fall in residence....
final ruling death due to hypothermia....but despite that...it can still be ruled homicide..... my point being that there are many reasons that toxicology may be held up...length of test time being one cause..but you must have all of the info, even if only to rule out other causes.

This is an example only...and as disappointed as many are at the delay and silence...have to give professionals the call here....All I am sure of is that it was probably not natural nor accidental...and undetermined would be a travesty...but even with that being the worst case scenario...that still does not rule out homicide. just my thoughts....
 
I'm glad we were able to keep it light in here today. After the other night, things have been a little tense. We all have a common goal, it is why we do what we do! Thank You all and Jillian, keep up the good work. We love you!
 
upstate said:
Using being new as an excuse, and being I am not an insider, verified or in any other fashion -- IMO "Living" is just a word. There is a car in the driveway daily (nightly at times) so having a frequent guest that stays over night often is different than "Living" together. Attending parties together, yet acting like they don't even know each other at the school - shows deception -- All IMO

If this isn't allowed, I am very sorry. I have only utter respect for everyone here!!

Here goes . . .
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Last I was told, by an excellent source, the overnights were not occurring. However it is possible my information is a bit outdated. It sounds as though you may have directly observed different scenarios...
 
rickblaine said:
Last I was told, by an excellent source, the overnights were not occurring. However it is possible my information is a bit outdated. It sounds as though you may have directly observed different scenarios...
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I can comfortably say, very late nights/early mornings, anyway. Getting increasingly more bold with the parking as well. Complete disrespect to parents that just lost their daughter. As always, JMO :furious:

I know I'm walking a very fine line - He has created a situation for himself, this community and surrounding communities by putting us in awkward positions. He and his little Tryst . . . All me once again, MOO

Thank You rickblaine, you are one reason we chose to speak out here. We have kept tabs here from very early on and there have been times we were tackling each other to stop the other from posting out of anger. This thread has come a long way - Yes, I am going to say Thank You again, everyone!
 
upstate said:
Using being new as an excuse, and being I am not an insider, verified or in any other fashion -- IMO "Living" is just a word. There is a car in the driveway daily (nightly at times) so having a frequent guest that stays over night often is different than "Living" together. Attending parties together, yet acting like they don't even know each other at the school - shows deception -- All IMO

If this isn't allowed, I am very sorry. I have only utter respect for everyone here!!

Here goes . . .
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Perhaps going to parties is part of the campaign for vengeance??
 
upstate said:
I respectfully disagree about the body being moved. I won't say it isn't possible, but the snow we had, especially there, has been there from the day after (either the day she went missing or the day after the news broke). I remember thinking, "If she didn't leave on her own, no one will find her until all the snow melts" Then it just kept snowing! It is amazing she was found when she was -- Most of the properties out there aren't frequented -- The person that left her there didn't expect such an attentive property owner -- JMO
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I think it is despicable that searches were discouraged.

However, the searches would have needed to be done IMMEDIATELY after she went missing, before the snow hit. OR with really good cadaver dogs that could smell under the snow. (Guess that's what the coyotes did??)
 
cluciano63 said:
I am not clear on what some think the tox results will do to prove or disprove a case. If they need tox for a cause of death, that is not good news, IMO.

If her system is clean, but they cannot determine cause of death, then what, I wonder? If she has drugs in her system, how to prove she did not take them? I admit, I am worried, if in fact they are awaiting tox to see what to do next.
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The medical examiner said there were no obvious signs of injury (or something along that line) on Jenn's body. So, that would rule out COD of knife wound or gun shot or blunt force trauma (unless perhaps something on her skull, covered by her hair, that wouldn't be readily apparent on initial evaluation).

So...that leaves a COD of something like smothering or strangling (maybe?) or drugs.

For some reason, I lean toward a death of smothering (like with a pillow or putting a bag over her head or duct tape over her mouth and nose). But that would require rendering her immobile first. Perhaps with drugs? Another possibility for keeping her immobile -- something like padded handcuffs (there was a posting in GR's facebook along the lines of "break out the handcuffs and whips and duct tape" that was probably just a joke, but...what if it were an occasional part of their marital relations?)

Anyway, the toxicology reports will show if she were drugged (and I keep meaning to look up those drugs that are used for fibromyalgia to see what an overdose of any of those would do). It's unlikely that she would have overdosed herself (and then managed to drive to Plank Road Manor and left her van and then walked nude all those miles to the sand pile to discard her phone and then the next 4 miles or so to Center Road and throw herself off the embankment).
 
Abigail said:
The medical examiner said there were no obvious signs of injury (or something along that line) on Jenn's body. So, that would rule out COD of knife wound or gun shot or blunt force trauma (unless perhaps something on her skull, covered by her hair, that wouldn't be readily apparent on initial evaluation).

So...that leaves a COD of something like smothering or strangling (maybe?) or drugs.

For some reason, I lean toward a death of smothering (like with a pillow or putting a bag over her head or duct tape over her mouth and nose). But that would require rendering her immobile first. Perhaps with drugs? Another possibility for keeping her immobile -- something like padded handcuffs (there was a posting in GR's facebook along the lines of "break out the handcuffs and whips and duct tape" that was probably just a joke, but...what if it were an occasional part of their marital relations?)

Anyway, the toxicology reports will show if she were drugged (and I keep meaning to look up those drugs that are used for fibromyalgia to see what an overdose of any of those would do). It's unlikely that she would have overdosed herself (and then managed to drive to Plank Road Manor and left her van and then walked nude all those miles to the sand pile to discard her phone and then the next 4 miles or so to Center Road and throw herself off the embankment).
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abigail, please don't jump to conclusions. If the info provided by LE to the public thus far is any indication. It would be virtually impossible to come to any conclusions. Scavenger damage, due to the 3 months recovery would eliminate visual COD, imo...

Infuriated at the incompetency of the Chenabngo County Sheriff's decision to discourage volunteer searches, that may have located JR remains much sooner, imo...
Sheriff Cutter needs to be sweeping streets, imo...
 
I think the only way tox will help point to a manner of death (manner=suicide, homicide, natural or accidental or inconclusive) will be if actual poisons, and not meds, are found in her system. Cause of death tells the "how" of adeath, i.e. stabbing, poisoning, etc. while manner gives the mode, as it were. Cause of death, for example, cannot be homicide. That would be manner of death, with cause as stabbing, gun shot, etc.

However simply having a lot of different medications in one's system is not enough to determine manner as homicide, as it could have been accidental or suicidal, theoretically. This is why I am really hoping LE has some actual evidence, other than some very odd behavior and statements from her husband.
 
Foxfire said:
abigail, please don't jump to conclusions. If the info provided by LE to the public thus far is any indication. It would be virtually impossible to come to any conclusions. Scavenger damage, due to the 3 months recovery would eliminate visual COD, imo...

Infuriated at the incompetency of the Chenabngo County Sheriff's decision to discourage volunteer searches, that may have located JR remains much sooner, imo...
Sheriff Cutter needs to be sweeping streets, imo...
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There may have been scavenger damage in first few days...but after that she was covered by snow. I believe an insider posted here in WS that her foot was exposed, but he had to kick away the snow and ice to find her body, and that there was some decomp, but she was recognizable.

But yes, can't jump to conclusions.
 
Happy Easter everyone. At this holiest time of the year, it is my prayer that Jennifer's children and parents and other friends and family will take comfort in knowing that Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. Jennifer will rise to life again.

Then comes the end...when He will put all enemies under His feet.

It is my prayer that Jenn's killer will repent of his sin, will confess to God and to LE, and accept judgement on earth.

Otherwise, I would dread to be in his place at the final judgement.
 
Thinking about it... where Jennifer's body was found especially...

I believe that her body may have been placed there under cover of darkness, just as I feel that the van may have been left at Plank Road Manor under cover of darkness. Possibly on the same night.

One would least likely to be seen at night time, especially on a road like Center Road, with few residents living out there, one would be less apt to drive that stretch at that time of night.

Where the Jennifer's body was left indicates one that may not have been too familiar with the road, or at least hadn't traveled out there in a while, most especially in the dark. The proximity to the houses nearby (the ones near Rhinevault and the ones over in the woods off of Coy) tells me two things... that Jennifer's body was left there in the dark, and that putting her body there wasn't something planned, but something last minute.

It also leads me to believe that the van may have initially been hidden in the proximity of Center Road, possibly the parking lot on Fred Stewart Road for the Finger Lakes Trail/Plymouth Loop Trail section.

Another indication as to why it may have occurred in the dark... the proximity of where the body was left, to the road. In light, one has a good bearing of distance, but in darkness, distances can be obscured. Come spring after the snow and ice melts, her body probably would have been discernible from the road.

I think Jennifer's body may have been placed on Center Road on the same night as her van was left at Plank Road Manor.

Her van would probably have been hidden around the 11th, somewhere within the proximity of Moon Hill/Reservoir Hill (in that area).

Covered in mud to mask and camouflage it to blend in to the shadows of the landscape (which would explain it being covered in mud when found).

If it had snowed or rained in the area where it was in the meantime, some of that mud would likely have been washed away a little.

I would place the timing of this somewhere between late to early morning hours (a time of night where one wouldn't be noticed), between the 11th and the 14th of December. .

As I stated in a prior post, the Chenango County Sheriff didn't release a Missing Person's report until 8:39 PM on December 13th on their Facebook page.

News about her disappearance didn't occur until later that evening, and in the papers the next morning (December 14th).

LE's report indicated that Jennifer may had changed and dyed her hair, indicative, or at least passing on the possible notion to the general public, that she had run away.

The APB also went out on a maroon Chrysler Town and Country minivan (license plates: EFA-1962). Jillian has since indicated that Jennifer's Chrysler Town and Country minivan was an orange-ish red-ish (bronze?) color, and not maroon.

If the license plates were covered in mud, one wouldn't be able to discern the van (by plate or by color). :facepalm:.

There's a lot of strange aspects, and there's a lot of questions that need to be answered about this case. :furious:
 
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