Found Deceased NY - Jennifer Ramsaran, 36, Chenango County, 11 Dec 2012 - # 2

[newsjunkie]

In this case though, the police didn't say "don't search." They said if you're going to search to 1. STOP and immediately call 911 if anyone sees anything suspicious, and 2. be safe. Yes, they discouraged the search, but they didn't say "don't search," and they were fully aware of our plans. They can't disallow people to search public property, or even private property as long as the searcher has permission to search on said private property. The police only emphasized their discouragement after someone called complaining loudly about it.


Sounds about right, sadly.



The police could have met us on that Sunday to further prepare us, in my opinion, if that was their concern. The search scenes weren't going to fold out looking like people trudging through the snow, clumsily tripping over each other, grabbing at items should they see some, holding them up and shouting, "Hey! Check this out! Look what I found," before stuffing it in a lint-filled wool pocket. I would think that most people have common sense, and would tread lightly after listening to the rules prior to the search. It was by no means going to be a free for all...



Has this ever happened? A killer going free because a hiker found and touched evidence? I mean, it's certainly plausible that that could happen, but how likely, I wonder?



Lavonda, do you know if our police will (or can) plea to the media for people to check their own properties and property boundaries? Someone mentioned the teacher that went missing a couple of years ago, and I believe LE put out an announcement asking for people to check their property. I think that's how she was found, actually (?) Why isn't our local LE doing that? Just a thought...

I wish LE viewed the public's help the way the Gresham LE did in Whitney Heichel's case.

 

[Jilllian]

Well...we have to agree to disagree. And I will also say...and please don't take this wrong...but you honestly cannot say what you would do or wouldn't do until you are in the exact situation. What we think now and say we would do or feel could entirely change when such a tragedy befalls us.

~ respectfully snipped

Lavanda, some people CAN honestly say what they would and wouldn't do in a similar situation. For 8 years I've known what I would do if my son went missing. And when he finally did, I did it. (I mean I put the action in place...I wasn't the one who found him. A community member was).

I know you'll say a missing child in the woods is different, but here are a few parts that are probably similar. That initial heart-stopping silence that lasts for a second or two. That cold fear that runs down your body. The deep breaths you have to take that are then followed by sheer panic driven ACTION. Stepping on evidence would have been the furthest thing from my mind, as would fear of possible "legal red tape" that IHaveNoClue mentioned.

I can't say that's what all mothers would or do feel, I'm just saying that SOME (and I would even hazard to guess MOST) would go looking or be open to community searches.

Unless I saw valid data proving that community searches actually harm a prosecution's case, I just can't understand...

It seems like community searches have done far more good!

Sadly, there are so many people who have put blind faith into their local LE and regretted it later, when it was much too late to make a difference.

Systemically, this is a HUGE problem, IMO.

 

[krey]

GAH! I've been trying to get on WS for well over an hour, and couldn't get any access whatsover. I guess I'm beyond addicted, because I was about to go crazy. :/

 

[sleepinoz]

GAH! I've been trying to get on WS for well over an hour, and couldn't get any access whatsover. I guess I'm beyond addicted, because I was about to go crazy. :/

Me too Krey:banghead:

 

[krey]

O/T -- I haven't been following the Victoria Moon Erickson case, and really had not heard of it other than a couple of you mentioning her here. She's been spotted!

http://www.11alive.com/news/article...seen-Monday-hitchhiking-toward-LA-disoriented

 

[krey]

Me too Krey:banghead:

Oh okay, I guess it was an issue with the site. I didn't know what was going on! So frustrating!! :furious:

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Well...we have to agree to disagree. And I will also say...and please don't take this wrong...but you honestly cannot say what you would do or wouldn't do until you are in the exact situation. What we think now and say we would do or feel could entirely change when such a tragedy befalls us. I am 100% in full support of a search for Jennifer...again...with police involvement and a professional SAR team in attendance to give instructions to volunteers if they need them. So my understanding is Jennifer is registered at CUE...that is what they do all of the time...has anyone addressed the searches with them?

Actually... I HAVE lost a son.... and I can say during that horrible time hesitancy to interfere with legal issues was THE. FURTHEST. THING. FROM. MY. MIND...

My DH and I found our 7 1/2 week old son not breathing.. we started CPR as we were calling 9-1-1... and ALL we could think of was to get our son breathing again...

We lost him to SIDS... and this may not be exactly the same as missing persons... but not even all missing peoples' cases are the same... each case is unique...

So ... yes... I HAVE been in a situation of life and death... and legal ramifications were not even a consideration to me... nor my husband...

JMO

 

[fringles]

IHAVENOCLUE I am so sad to hear that story, and for your loss, but thank you for sharing it.

 

[cluciano63]

Many of us here have had crime victims or missing persons in our family, so it is not always speculation as to what we might do.

I know I could not think ahead to possible evidence for a possible later court case, when my sister went some missing years ago. None of us could, and certainly no one in LE ever suggested not searching for.

 

[fringles]

Loves cherry coke but lately drank a lot of water with lemon.
Her clothes are almost always pretty casual, however, the last 3-4 months she started dressing up every time she left the home.
She never wore nail polish until about six months ago when nail polish became the norm.
She is an excellent cook but stopped cooking the two months prior to her disappearance

(BBM, and respectfully snipped for space)

This list is interesting to me, particularly the bolded parts above. It's difficult because I don't want to get into rumour/forbidden territory but I was wondering what everyone made of the recent changes in JR- along with the weight loss.

We've got

June: starts wearing nail polish
August/September: starts dressing up more when she goes out
October: Stops cooking
December: goes missing

General:
Weight loss (do we know when she started losing weight?)
Water with lemon (probably a weight loss thing)

I wonder if JR made any new female friends last year? To me, the nails and the clothes sound more like the influence of a woman- someone maybe who gets manicures and introduced Jen to them, perhaps encouraged her to try out new looks etc.

IMO while it's nice to know all these facts about Jennifer, I'm not really clear on the purpose of releasing them? I guess some of them might help someone to recognise her? I don't know. They confuse me a little but I might be being obtuse. It does look like what would happen if you gave my husband and a couple of my close friends a big piece of paper and some sharpie pens and said 'write everything you can think of about fringles'- not the content but the random nature of the facts. I guess I feel like maybe it could do with an edit- the places she likes to eat and shop seem useful but I'm really not sure that I need to know that she doesn't like sandwiches.

 

[fringles]

Just thinking... If Jennifer did run off, she's managed to stay hidden for a good while. To me she couldn't do that without planning, so presumably there'd be evidence on her computer or phone of some kind of forethought. Given that we've had no statement from LE saying they're leaning that way, I'm inclined to believe that they're not. After all, isn't the general tendency for LE to be more likely to suspect a runaway in the early days of a person being missing, then the longer time goes on without any indication that that's the case, foul play becomes more likely?

With the suicide thing- I do not understand why she would drive around in the mud, find a place, then take her car somewhere and walk back there. Plus, surely it's a pretty long walk from where the car was found to somewhere where nobody would come across her body for this long. There's been no mention of a gun or any medication missing from the house so she'd have had limited options as to method. Without being too graphic- I would imagine computer searches for knot tying would've been needed, and could be found, plus she would've needed rope. Anything high enough to jump off would surely be either a bridge, or a building, so she would've been found. Basically I'm having trouble seeing her harming herself- even just through lack of ways to do it!

 

[cluciano63]

Gosh, I hate to say it, but I doubt my husband would notice little changes like nail polish, or especially when it occurred. Certainly not a month by month detail of when each change took place, lol. Not unless he was studying me for some project, or was gathering evidence against me for some reason.

 

[fringles]

Gosh, I hate to say it, but I doubt my husband would notice little changes like nail polish, or especially when it occurred. Certainly not a month by month detail of when each change took place, lol. Not unless he was studying me for some project, or was gathering evidence against me for some reason.

Agreed! The only way he'd notice is if I was talking about it. And even then... debatable. But that's what makes me think female friend (or just wanting to focus more on her appearance) - if she was having an affair or something then surely the last thing she'd want to do is draw her husband's attention to all the new efforts she was making.

 

[Orgona]

To play devil's advocate:
If the husband always said he liked painted nails(found them sexy), then he will notice if and when his wife begins to do it.
If a husband is tired of seeing his wife in jeans all the time and would encourage his wife to wear dresses and the wife begins to wear it, the husband will notice it.
If a husband says he like skinny, sportive woman more attractive, he will notice when his wife begins to diet.

But I have to agree with all who are saying their husband wouldn't notice those things too. My wouldn't either. When calling his attention to new details (like a new hairstyle or like I recently began to wear darker nail polish in place of the french nails and light colors I used to have whole my life) he would say he noticed something was little different but couldn't say what.

 

[terracotta]

~ respectfully snipped for space.

No. This search was NOT halted by the police. Nor was it disapproved. We must respectfully agree to disagree. I spoke to Lt. Cobb prior to finalizing the search, and although he discouraged the search at first, he said to make sure that two things were done: 1. if anyone sees anything suspicious, STOP and immediately call 911; and 2. be safe. He knew when and where we were meeting, and stated that he understood the communities need to do *something*, *anything* to help. Period.

Again, LE did NOT stop this search, nor did (do) they have the power to do so unless there is an identified crime scene area.

Let me ask two questions of the WS Team Jennifer Family:

1. How many of you would want your community to search for your missing loved one, even if it meant that a searcher may accidentally touch evidence, especially if you didn't know if and when SAR would come to do their own search?

2. How many of you yourselves would go looking for your missing loved one?

My answers:
1. I would
2. I would

You bet your bananas I would want my community to help and I would be out as well...non stop.

1.Yes
2.Yes

My dog was missing from my yard one day a few months ago...very out of the normal....he never, ever walks off the property. I panicked...could hardly breath, stomach was turning over and started shaking...I started looking everywhere....I found him in 20 minutes, but was planning on what my next course of action would be if I couldn't find him soon. In that 20 minutes I had neighbors looking and called family to help. I he is just a dog...but he is MY dog and he is my family....I would have accepted any help from anyone.....

Now that is just about a dog...imagine it is a spouse or child....jeesh...you couldn't hold me back...and I would accept and be grateful for ANY and ALL help given to me by my community.

I have participated in every local search for anyone that is missing...because that is what a community does.

So reading from others how they feel when a loved one is missing...and feeling it briefly for myself. I can't every imagine ANYONE not wanting people to help them search for a loved one....unless they don't want them found.

IMO

 

[LivingJuicy]

If I answer your question that would be an assumption on my part or it would be hearsay-assumption on Remy's part...so it will not be Jennifer's reasons and that would make it not a "factual" part of the case. I hope that makes sense? What I can say, however, is the same that Remy has stated and that is a drastic change transpired in the few months prior to her disappearance.

I don't know the answer to the cooking question but I do know that there were quite a bit of pictures on her FB of meals and recent holidays. She took pride it seemed on her domestic abilities. Anyone else see them? I want to say as recent as Thanksgiving.

 

[Bluecosmo]

I don't know the answer to the cooking question but I do know that there were quite a bit of pictures on her FB of meals and recent holidays. She took pride it seemed on her domestic abilities. Anyone else see them? I want to say as recent as Thanksgiving.

the quit cooking and the weight loss seemed to be around in the same time frame so maybe she quit cooking big meals to help her loose weight and fed her family other things like mac and cheese and hot dogs. It would be interesting to know what "quit cooking" really means.

 

[sreshowtime]

The police will not confirm. .....

snipped-

thanks..that is all well and good but what does her family say?
Could her father not see into the van when he found it? I am assuming he did not actually enter it...

Also the husband was/is in the home, and has he not noticed what, if anything is missing? He would be the primary one to note.


As an aside- is it known if she DID indeed even make it to the mall that day?? Is she or her van captured on any video cameras on the route she supposedly would take or the stores she supposedly was going to?
0r is that some 'evidence' too?
And LE never said if they checked the van for prints?? Like for some unknown?

 

[Jilllian]

I don't know the answer to the cooking question but I do know that there were quite a bit of pictures on her FB of meals and recent holidays. She took pride it seemed on her domestic abilities. Anyone else see them? I want to say as recent as Thanksgiving.

Yes, I saw those pics. She appears to be a very devoted and loving mother, proudly displaying knitted caps, vests and scarves she made, plus her art work (she is very talented). Lots of very loving pics of her with the children.

Our community needs to take action NOW. LE needs to hold a press conference, at the very least.

 

[Janeumayer]

If the husband does not want searches without proper SAR guidance, then why doesn't he contact SAR? I find that ridiculous.