Found Deceased NY - Jennifer Ramsaran, 36, Chenango County, 11 Dec 2012 - # 3

[SouthAussie]

Penny - JR's parents are uncertain at the moment whether or not they will attend.

GR's parents live downstate (NY). They have been up to see the kids several times since Jennifer disappeared. Very supportive indeed.

I hope that Jennifer's parents are getting to spend time with the kids too, that is if and when they are in town. I only remember reading that her dad flew in from AZ earlier on, so don't know if they are there.
Jennifer has been missing for so long now. I'm sure her family's regular lives have to be maintained, as well as hoping and praying and doing what they can for Jennifer. What a terrible feeling they must carry with them each day as they wade through their daily lives.

 

[LolaAngelina]

BBM
That's...wow. Am I reading too much into that?

ETA: Let me clarify. I'm thinking that JR's parents are unsure about going because it would be 'uncomfortable', but maybe it's just a scheduling conflict or something. If it's something innocuous, then I'm reading too much into it.

I don't think you are at all. IMO they have a fairly good idea of what happened to JR and who they think is responsible.
I'm sure the last thing they want to do is appear to be supporting this person

 

[rickblaine]

"Very supportive indeed"
:waitasec:

Probably reading into this too but I found it interesting none-the-less.

They have been spending time w/their grandchildren whenever they can....

 

[fringles]

Rick, I apologise if this is a hairy question - I know there are things you can't talk about, but I was wondering whether it's because you're wary of privacy issues, or out of respect for the family (both pefectly understandable!) or whether you're limited due to the ongoing investigation.

 

[LivingJuicy]

Sad but definitely true LJ...singular as far as I know

RB -
Thank you for sharing. This is a key point that we can maybe now explore further.

:grouphug:

OMG Clue, you have me hooked on these icons. I LOVE THEM NOW! I'm going to be so annoying with them. Warning you all now!

BTW - you guys are some awesome sleuthers/people. I love being here with you guys.

Let's get Jennifer home!

 

[rickblaine]

Rick, I apologise if this is a hairy question - I know there are things you can't talk about, but I was wondering whether it's because you're wary of privacy issues, or out of respect for the family (both pefectly understandable!) or whether you're limited due to the ongoing investigation.

All three are applicable Fringles....and I appreciate that you and the remainder of the WS community understand this.

 

[LivingJuicy]

I hate to ask this but do we have any hope here that JR is alive?

Is there anything indicating that she left on her own or is being held captive?


I know, seems silly but if not, we need to start really breaking down the alternative and find her so her parents get justice.

 

[enzeder]

Or a substantial amount of mud remained on the minivan because it was temporarily left elsewhere, and then later retrieved and driven to its final location.

It could not be cleaned off because of the lookout for the van (ORR's post above).

Very risky drop-off, though.

Quoting your post again...I'm thinking that's a real possibilty. If JR has met with foul play maybe whoever it was that was driving JR's van got stuck in a very muddy area. If this was the case there would have to be a very good reason for someone to risk going back to retrieve the vehicle later and and drive it to where it was found. I've been wondering why on earth would anyone take such a huge risk?. The only reason that I can think of thus far is that JR's van got stuck very close to the area where she may be?. IMO

I also wonder if the car may have been dumped at the apartment complex late Tuesday night?.

LD posted that a witness "felt" the van was there from Wednesday until found." (see post at link below)
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8777361&postcount=831"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NY NY - Jennifer Ramsaran, 36, Chenango County, 11 Dec 2012 - #2[/ame]

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

RB -
Thank you for sharing. This is a key point that we can maybe now explore further.

:grouphug:

OMG Clue, you have me hooked on these icons. I LOVE THEM NOW! I'm going to be so annoying with them. Warning you all now!

BTW - you guys are some awesome sleuthers/people. I love being here with you guys.

Let's get Jennifer home!

Love you, too, Juicy! :heart:

And... I have soooo much fun with the emoticons, too... (Obviously..:giggle: )

:seeya:

 

[enzeder]

I hate to ask this but do we have any hope here that JR is alive?

Is there anything indicating that she left on her own or is being held captive?


I know, seems silly but if not, we need to start really breaking down the alternative and find her so her parents get justice.

BBM - Not silly at all LJ. I totally agree with you.

 

[LivingJuicy]

Sad but definitely true LJ...singular as far as I know

RB,

Did Jennifer know about this affair? :waitasec:

 

[fringles]

While I'm desperately hopeful that she is out there alive, my rational side thinks it's unlikely.

I definitely don't think she's a runaway:

- Police have had access to her computer and phone for some time. If she had left with someone, there must've been evidence there of planning it, which they don't seem to have found.

- She doesn't appear to have had much money, nor does she have a cash-earning job or trade, so being able to support herself for this long seems unlikely. She does NOT seem like the type to be involved in the sex or drug trade, which are two places a person could go 'off-radar'.

- While she did have medical conditions, I'm not seeing anything that implies a mental break. I know these things can be sudden, but it doesn't ring true for me personally. Also, she would still have to be intentionally hiding, and that doesn't ring true with the (minimal, I admit) experience I have with people in mental-health crisis.

- If Police had ANY reason to suspect she ran off, I think we'd have heard from them, as it would tally with GR' statements - it's not as though he is out there insisting foul play, so there'd be no harm in stating they thought it was possible that she left. They have not.

- The van being covered in mud, ditched where it was, and the phone - those two just don't ring with a runaway IMO.

I think a stranger abduction is possible:

- For a random abduction/murder I can't quite see motive. No cash withdrawal, phone ditched, car ditched. It'd take a seriously wrong place wrong time moment.

- I have wondered if this is a ransom situation. It would explain the quiet, the 'humanising' list of her character traits, even, to an extent, oddities in GR's interview. Would love to hear others thoughts on this possibility. However I think abduction for ransom is pretty rare?

I also think a suicide is possible:

- But very unlikely, as why the mud, and why ditch the phone. And how did she manage to get far enough away to not have been found. I think it's possible, but I don't really include it in my theories of what happened. I might go and see if I can find some stats on women suicides as from memory they often happen in the home. From the little I've seen of Jennifer, she doesn't seem the type who would want people to never know what happened.

I think her coming to harm at the hands of someone she knew is possible:

- Personally I think this is most likely. I can't see anything that works against this, but would like to hear it if anyone else can!

 

[fringles]

Quoting your post again...I'm thinking that's a real possibilty. If JR has met with foul play maybe whoever it was that was driving JR's van got stuck in a very muddy area. If this was the case there would have to be a very good reason for someone to risk going back to retrieve the vehicle later and and drive it to where it was found. I've been wondering why on earth would anyone take such a huge risk?. The only reason that I can think of thus far is that JR's van got stuck very close to the area where she may be?. IMO

I also wonder if the car may have been dumped at the apartment complex late Tuesday night?.

LD posted that a witness "felt" the van was there from Wednesday until found." (see post at link below)
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NY NY - Jennifer Ramsaran, 36, Chenango County, 11 Dec 2012 - #2

I also think this is very likely. I remember looking at weather at that time and seeing that it was raining, I think it was the day she went missing - and that it cleared up the day after. I'll check again.

 

[OffRoadRunner]

Quoting your post again...I'm thinking that's a real possibilty. If JR has met with foul play maybe whoever it was that was driving JR's van got stuck in a very muddy area. If this was the case there would have to be a very good reason for someone to risk going back to retrieve the vehicle later and and drive it to where it was found. I've been wondering why on earth would anyone take such a huge risk?. The only reason that I can think of thus far is that JR's van got stuck very close to the area where she may be?. IMO

I also wonder if the car may have been dumped at the apartment complex late Tuesday night?.

LD posted that a witness "felt" the van was there from Wednesday until found." (see post at link below)
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NY NY - Jennifer Ramsaran, 36, Chenango County, 11 Dec 2012 - #2

If that is the case, with an all points bulletin lookout for the vehicle (was one put out that evening when she was reported missing I wonder), someone would be taking a very high risk of driving the van. Concur with under the cover of dark, less risky. And - the van wouldn't have been driven far IMO. Stuck - not on one of the seasonal roads IMO but perhaps in a farmer's field around here.... the fields did not freeze here until late December / early January (I know because I buried my tractor). If this is the case, it would have been a chore to get it unstuck.

For this matter, I don't think it was stuck. I just think it was done in a hurry, and done before anyone was reported missing - just driven hard on the seasonal roads covering the van in mud.

 

[Saxy_Soprano]

Hi There...Hope you don't mind another pair of eyes on this case.

I read through all the threads, and I apologize if this has been covered or if it's a dumb question--Regarding the vehicle, was there any info on whether the driver's seat/mirror was adjusted differently than would fit JR? I'm assuming the whole vehicle was dusted for prints...including the ignition key...

 

[enzeder]

If that is the case, with an all points bulletin lookout for the vehicle (was one put out that evening when she was reported missing I wonder), someone would be taking a very high risk of driving the van. Concur with under the cover of dark, less risky. And - the van wouldn't have been driven far IMO. Stuck - not on one of the seasonal roads IMO but perhaps in a farmer's field around here.... the fields did not freeze here until late December / early January (I know because I buried my tractor). If this is the case, it would have been a chore to get it unstuck.

For this matter, I don't think it was stuck. I just think it was done in a hurry, and done before anyone was reported missing - just driven hard on the seasonal roads covering the van in mud.

Thanks ORR. It's really good to have access to your local knowledge regarding the roads in the area and weather conditions etc. Do you think, as epiphany suggested, that the van may have been "temporarily left elsewhere, and then later retrieved and driven to its final location"?

I agree that the van wouldn't have been driven all that far from wherever the area was that it picked up all the mud to where it was located at the apartment complex. IMO

 

[fringles]

It's tricky to find suicide location statistics but the one small study I could find, in Nova Scotia, reported 93% of suicide attempts happening in the home....

http://www.gov.ns.ca/hpp/publications/Suicide_Report.pdf

And weatherwise, Accuweather reports rain on the 10th, a little on the 11th and fine on the 12th. So I guess mud would've been everywhere. There was a also a significant drop in temp from the 10th-11th - which could've been how GR was caught out in inappropriate gear.

http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/norwich-ny/13815/december-weather/334642?monyr=12/1/2012&view=table

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Hi There...Hope you don't mind another pair of eyes on this case.

I read through all the threads, and I apologize if this has been covered or if it's a dumb question--Regarding the vehicle, was there any info on whether the driver's seat/mirror was adjusted differently than would fit JR? I'm assuming the whole vehicle was dusted for prints...including the ignition key...

:welcome4: Saxy Soprano! :wagon:

thank you for joining us!

and good questions regarding adjustment of van seat and mirror...

and prints on the steering wheel and key would help to see if someone not in the family had driven the van!

:seeya:

 

[Clayton]

I am really surprised that Lovanda has not put any of the map locations on Facebook, particularly where Jennifer's phone was found. Also the photo of Plank Apartments where her car was found. It possibly might jog someone's memory.

 

[LivingJuicy]

While I'm desperately hopeful that she is out there alive, my rational side thinks it's unlikely.

I definitely don't think she's a runaway:

- Police have had access to her computer and phone for some time. If she had left with someone, there must've been evidence there of planning it, which they don't seem to have found.

- She doesn't appear to have had much money, nor does she have a cash-earning job or trade, so being able to support herself for this long seems unlikely. She does NOT seem like the type to be involved in the sex or drug trade, which are two places a person could go 'off-radar'.

- While she did have medical conditions, I'm not seeing anything that implies a mental break. I know these things can be sudden, but it doesn't ring true for me personally. Also, she would still have to be intentionally hiding, and that doesn't ring true with the (minimal, I admit) experience I have with people in mental-health crisis.

- If Police had ANY reason to suspect she ran off, I think we'd have heard from them, as it would tally with GR' statements - it's not as though he is out there insisting foul play, so there'd be no harm in stating they thought it was possible that she left. They have not.

- The van being covered in mud, ditched where it was, and the phone - those two just don't ring with a runaway IMO.

I think a stranger abduction is possible:

- For a random abduction/murder I can't quite see motive. No cash withdrawal, phone ditched, car ditched. It'd take a seriously wrong place wrong time moment.

- I have wondered if this is a ransom situation. It would explain the quiet, the 'humanising' list of her character traits, even, to an extent, oddities in GR's interview. Would love to hear others thoughts on this possibility. However I think abduction for ransom is pretty rare?

I also think a suicide is possible:

- But very unlikely, as why the mud, and why ditch the phone. And how did she manage to get far enough away to not have been found. I think it's possible, but I don't really include it in my theories of what happened. I might go and see if I can find some stats on women suicides as from memory they often happen in the home. From the little I've seen of Jennifer, she doesn't seem the type who would want people to never know what happened.

I think her coming to harm at the hands of someone she knew is possible:

- Personally I think this is most likely. I can't see anything that works against this, but would like to hear it if anyone else can!

Very well thought out post and I agree with all that you said. :rocker: