GUILTY NY - Leiby Kletzky, 8, Brooklyn, 11 July 2011 - #2

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I hope the threats against JM cease. How terrible for her. LA has to have a defense team in order for LK to receive justice. Just what people are thinking when they decide to make these threats is beyond me. Un-real! I do hope anyone who makes threats is charged accordingly.
 
I hope the threats against JM cease. How terrible for her. LA has to have a defense team in order for LK to receive justice. Just what people are thinking when they decide to make these threats is beyond me. Un-real! I do hope anyone who makes threats is charged accordingly.

Jennifer McCann met with Levi Aron at Bellevue Hospital where he underwent a psychiatric assessment and I doubt Levi Aron is harassed by the inpatients and the atmosphere there is calm and sedate. Levi Aron has security personnel watching him 24/7 as well so most of the inpatients at Bellevue probably don’t even know who Aron is and why he is there.

When Aron was led into the courtroom for his arraignment, inmates screamed "F---ing killer!" from holding pens, a few hours after a crowd shouted "Murderer!" outside a police station so this is what Jennifer may have to face when she arrives at the Court House on Thursday but she will be accompanied by co-counsel, Pierre Bazile.

Jennifer L. McCann of Garden City, N.Y., represented Kathleen Prisco, a Suffolk County woman who was allowed to plead not guilty by reason of insanity for fatally stabbing her husband, a lawyer.

Prisco believed her husband was attempting to frame her for some crime when she stabbed him to death and because Prisco wasn’t jeered at the Courthouse like Aron was, it seems Prisco had the public’s sympathy which is something Aron definitely does not have. This makes Aron’s case much more difficult and stressful for Ms. McCann.

Because Prisco was found not criminally responsible for her husband’s murder, she was spared a lengthy jail term and this could be why some people are upset with Ms McCann; they don’t the same results for Levi Aron.

Ms. McCann also took part in a successful appeal that prevented a 20-year sentence in a manslaughter case from being increased. The defendant in that case, Nathan Powell, had admitted to hitting a man with a pool cue, stabbing him with a knife and then dismembering his body.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-07-14/news/29792317_1_child-killer-lawyer-claims-murder-charge
 
How does the not guily by insanity work in NY?

I know some states it just means that the defendent doesn't get a prison term but rather goes into a locked down hospital that deals with criminal psychiatry (can't think of the proper name for that at this moment for some reason). Anyone know offhand? TIA
 
How does the not guily by insanity work in NY?

I know some states it just means that the defendent doesn't get a prison term but rather goes into a locked down hospital that deals with criminal psychiatry (can't think of the proper name for that at this moment for some reason). Anyone know offhand? TIA

Today we will learn whether Levi Aron is “fit to stand trial”.

The results of Levi Aron’s mental evaluation is faxed to the Presiding Judge, members of Aron Levi’s defense team and prosecution immediately after the psychiatrist determines whether LA is "fit to stand trial" based on the results of his psych evaluation that was completed last week so they already know before they arrive at the Court House on Thursday whether LA is “fit to stand trial”.

While an accused deemed not criminally responsible due to mental disease has been found to have committed the act that formed the basis of the offence for which he or she has been charged, it is also possible that an accused is not able to participate in his or her full answer and defence on account of mental disorder. In such cases, it is considered inconsistent with the principles of fundamental justice to determine if he or she has actually committed the offence in question through a trial.

Section 2 of the Criminal Code defines an accused as unfit to stand trial if he or she is:
- unable on account of mental disorder to conduct a defence at any stage of the proceedings before a verdict is rendered or to instruct counsel to do so, and in particular, unable on account of mental disorder to:
- understand the nature or object of proceedings;
- understand the possible consequences of the proceedings; or
- communicate with counsel.[7]

The Insanity Defense Reform Act of 1984 created a special verdict of "not guilty only by reason of insanity," which triggers a commitment proceeding.

Therefore, should LA be found “unfit to stand trial”, I believe he will be committed to a mental hospital for treatment. If over time, Aron responds to treatment and regains his sanity, he will then be "fit to stand trial" unless the charges are stayed or withdrawn beforehand.

After the Hinckley verdict, there was an immediate public outcry against what many perceived to be a loophole in the justice system that allowed an obviously guilty man to escape punishment. There were widespread calls for the abolishment, or at least the substantial revision, of the insanity-plea laws. In response to the verdict more than 30 states changed their laws to make it more difficult for defendants to succeed in an insanity defense, and Congress passed the Insanity Defense Reform Act, which tightened federal standards. Five states abolished the insanity defense but not New York who use the M'Naghten Rule (modified), burden of proof on defendant.

Aron’s former legal counsellor said Aron has a diminished capacity and in the Insanity Defense Reform Act of 1984, the defense of “diminished capacity” was eliminated. The definition of insanity states a person of diminished capacity is not necessarily insane.

The Insanity Defense Reform Act placed the burden of proof on the defendant to establish the defense by clear and convincing evidence. LA’s lawyers said Aron has heard voices for quite some time and hallucinates so it seems they intend to prove LA has been mentally ill for “a long time’ whereas in my opinion, I think LA was temporarily insane when he murdered Leiby and the kidnapping charges are questionable since Leiby approached Aron and Aron wasn’t out in the community looking to kidnap a child. LK was held against his will when Aron formed the intent to kill him when he returned home from work on Tuesday IMO.

634 Insanity Defense Reform Act of 1984

The Insanity Defense Reform Act of 1984, signed into law on October 12, 1984, was the first comprehensive Federal legislation governing the insanity defense and the disposition of individuals suffering from a mental disease or defect who are involved in the criminal justice system. The more significant provisions:
1. significantly modified the standard for insanity previously applied in the Federal courts;
2. placed the burden of proof on the defendant to establish the defense by clear and convincing evidence;
3. limited the scope of expert testimony on ultimate legal issues;
4. eliminated the defense of diminished capacity;
5. created a special verdict of "not guilty only by reason of insanity," which triggers a commitment proceeding; and
6. provided for Federal commitment of persons who become insane after having been found guilty or while serving a Federal prison sentence.

NEW YORK: M'Naghten Rule (modified), burden of proof on defendant

M'NAGHTEN RULE:

The M'Naghten rule states: "Every man is to be presumed to be sane, and . . . that to establish a defense on the ground of insanity, it must be clearly proved that, at the time of the committing of the act, the party ACCUSED was laboring under such a defect of reason, from disease of mind, as not to know the nature and quality of the act he was doing; or if he did know it, that he did not know he was doing what was wrong. "
The test to determine if defendants can distinguish right from wrong is based on the idea that they must know the difference in order to be convicted of a crime. Determining defendants' ability to do so may seem straightforward enough, but in practice in cases in which the M'Naghten standard is used dilemmas often arise. One of these is what constitutes the defendants' "knowledge." Some questions concern defendants' knowledge that their criminal acts are wrong and their knowledge that laws exist which prohibit these acts.

Criticism of the M'Naghten test focuses on the test's concentration on defendants' cognitive abilities. Then, too, questions occur about how to treat defendants who know their acts are against the law but who cannot control their impulses to commit them. Similarly, the courts need to determine how to evaluate and assign responsibility for emotional factors and compulsion. Finally, because of the rule's inflexible cognitive standard, it tends to be very difficult for defendants to be found not guilty by reason of insanity. Despite these complications, M'Naghten survives and is currently the rule in a majority of states in regard to the insanity defense (sometimes combined with the irresistible impulse test, discussed below).

The Irresistible Impulse Test

In response to criticisms of M'Naghten, some legal commentators began to suggest expanding the definition of insanity to include more than a cognitive element. Such a test would encompass not only whether defendants know right from wrong but also whether they could control their impulses to commit wrong-doing. The irresistible impulse test was first adopted by the Alabama Supreme Court in the 1887 case of Parsons v. State. The Alabama Court stated that even though the defendant could tell right from wrong, he was subject to "the DURESS of such mental disease [that] he had... lost the power to choose between right and wrong" and that "his free agency was at the time destroyed," and thus, "the alleged crime was so connected with such mental disease, in the relation of cause and effect, as to have been the product of it solely." In so finding, the court assigned responsibility for the crime to the mental illness despite the defendant's ability to distinguish right from wrong.

The irresistible impulse test gained acceptance in various states as an appendage to M'Naghten, whose test of right versus wrong was still considered a vital part of any definition of insanity. In some cases, irresistible impulse was considered a variation on M'Naghten; in others it was considered a separate test. Though the Irresistible Impulse test was considered an important corrective on M'Naghten's cognitive BIAS, it still came under some criticism of its own. For example, it seemed to make the definition of insanity too broad, failing to take into account the impossibility of determining which acts were uncontrollable rather than merely uncontrolled, and also making it easier to fake insanity. The test was also criticized as being too narrow: like M'Naghten, the test seemed to exclude all but those totally unable to control their actions. Nevertheless, several states currently use this test along with the M'Naghten rule to determine insanity, and the American Law Institute in its Model Penal Code definition of insanity adopted a modified version of it.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/trial/other.html
http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm00634.htm
http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/rs/rep-rap/2006/rr06_1/p1.html
 
Thank you blue!
 
Levi Aron Deemed Competent to Stand Trial

http://www.wnyc.org/blogs/wnyc-news...orough-park-boy-deemed-competent-stand-trial/


Mr. Aron’s next court appearance is scheduled for Oct. 14, at which point Mr. Aron’s lawyers indicated that they will request a change of venue from Brooklyn.

Ms. McCann drew gasps from the crowd
when she told reporters that this case “was no different than the D.W.I.’s and the traffic tickets and the other murder cases,” she said. “They are defendants, they have rights and we are here to defend them.”

Several members of the Hasidic observers questioned her on that point.

“Is it more emotional, more difficult because of the evidence?” she said. “Absolutely. This case isn’t easy for us to handle, either, but his rights are the same. When I defend those rights, I defend yours, too.”


At the end of the news conference, one young Orthodox woman approached Ms. McCann.

“Jennifer, do you have kids?” the woman asked.

Ms. McCann said she did not want to comment.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2...-competent-for-trial-in-leiby-kletzky-murder/
 
She's right - it isn't any different. Regardless of the crime committed, all defendants in this country have rights, even when the evidence is harder. Defense attorneys have to compartmentalize. You have to detach yourself from the facts of the case you are representing and look at the law. Prosecutors basically have to do the same - regardless of the evidence, the have to follow the law, even if a defendant is a super nice person.

People shouldn't be criticizing her for doing her job.
 
I agree that Levi Aron is fit to stand trial because he proved he is able to communicate with his counsellors. Aron told his lawyers he hallicinates and hears voices and that indicates Aron is able to communicate effectively with his legal advisors and participate in his own defense; therefore he is deemed “fit to stand trial”.

<snipped>

&#8220;He understands the nature of the charges and the proceedings and can assist in his defense,&#8221; Mr. Bazile said to reporters after the hearing. &#8220;It is not a rendering on sanity or insanity.&#8221;

Mr. Bazile said that &#8220;we believe him to have some psychiatric disorders,&#8221; and Ms. McCann added that it could take a couple of months for psychological experts to evaluate him.
Mr. Bazile said previously that Mr. Aron had been hearing voices, and that statement is reflected in the psychological evaluation, Ms. McCann said.

In a statement, Charles J. Hynes, the Brooklyn district attorney, said, &#8220;Now that Mr. Aron has been found fit to proceed we will move forward expeditiously to bring his case to trial. I want to reaffirm that this case will go to trial and that there are absolutely no circumstances which would lead me to accept a plea bargain.&#8221;

Mr. Aron&#8217;s next court appearance is scheduled for Oct. 14, at which point Mr. Aron&#8217;s lawyers indicated that they will request a change of venue from Brooklyn.

&#8220;He may not be able to get a fair trial in Brooklyn because the community&#8217;s rancor has been riled, it has been so stirred up against the defendant,&#8221; Mr. Bazile said.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2...-competent-for-trial-in-leiby-kletzky-murder/
 
From the links posted in both #330 and #331

He told detectives that he was hearing voices telling him &#8220;to take his own life for what he did,&#8221; according to court papers. He also told police who took him in "I'm famous," according to court papers.


Hearing voices telling him to take his own life for what he did? Sounds like remorse, not incompetency or insanity to me.

I realize the prosecution is saying they will not consider a plea bargain in any circumstance, however I think that may ultimately change based first on the Kletzky family wishes, but let's not forget the Aron family will have to endure the same horrific details.

I've followed a few local cases with evidence that leaves no room for doubt as in the case with LA where the defendent accepts a blind plea -iow guily plea without negotiating sentencing. Does anyone know of cases in NYC/Brooklyn area with blind plea's?


I really see this as being a battle between the attorneys. I'm not convinced this case will go to trial. I could be wrong, time will tell.
 
She's right - it isn't any different. Regardless of the crime committed, all defendants in this country have rights, even when the evidence is harder. Defense attorneys have to compartmentalize. You have to detach yourself from the facts of the case you are representing and look at the law. Prosecutors basically have to do the same - regardless of the evidence, the have to follow the law, even if a defendant is a super nice person.

People shouldn't be criticizing her for doing her job.

Levi Aron's defense team did an outstanding job today in Court IMO.

<snipped>

Outraged members of the victim's ultra-Orthodox Jewish community "should allow the judicial process to take its course," one of the attorneys, Pierre Bazile, said outside court.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-08-04-14-13-46

For now Levi Aron will stay at Bellevue Hospital.
 
He told detectives that he was hearing voices telling him “to take his own life for what he did,” according to court papers. He also told police who took him in "I'm famous," according to court papers.

Sounds like consciousness of guilt to me.
 
Levi Aron isn&#8217;t "insane" because he heard voices in his head telling him to "take his own life for what he did" after he murdered Leiby Kletzsky. It is completely normal for a person in Aron&#8217;s situation to feel guilty after the fact so these thoughts don&#8217;t prove Aron is insane IMO.

I am interested in knowing what was going on inside Aron&#8217;s mind after he heard about the massive search that was forming for Leiby on Tuesday; the thoughts that lead up to Leiby&#8217;s murder as his anxiety and fear mounted.

MO is Aron is withholding this information and hence refusing to reveal the truth.

I wonder if LE recorded Aron&#8217;s comments to prove Aron said &#8220;I&#8217;m famous&#8221;?

<snipped>

The man accused in the kidnapping and dismemberment killing of an 8-year-old New York City boy told detectives his victim put up a struggle and that afterward he was hearing voices telling him "to take his own life for what he did," according to court papers made public Thursday.

Police say Levi Aron made the remarks last month around the time he directed them to a trash bin where he dumped a red suitcase containing body parts. As the interrogation wore on, Aron told them, "I'm famous," the papers say.

I think the defense should order a CAT scan for Levi Aron to determne whether his head or brain was injured when he was involved in an accident at around 10-years-of-age and shows any history of injury. JMO

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-08-04-14-13-46
 
From the links posted in both #330 and #331

He told detectives that he was hearing voices telling him “to take his own life for what he did,” according to court papers. He also told police who took him in "I'm famous," according to court papers.


Hearing voices telling him to take his own life for what he did? Sounds like remorse, not incompetency or insanity to me.

I realize the prosecution is saying they will not consider a plea bargain in any circumstance, however I think that may ultimately change based first on the Kletzky family wishes, but let's not forget the Aron family will have to endure the same horrific details.

I've followed a few local cases with evidence that leaves no room for doubt as in the case with LA where the defendent accepts a blind plea -iow guily plea without negotiating sentencing. Does anyone know of cases in NYC/Brooklyn area with blind plea's?


I really see this as being a battle between the attorneys. I'm not convinced this case will go to trial. I could be wrong, time will tell.

Under common law, a plea of guilty by the defendant waives trial of the charged offences and the defendant may be sentenced immediately. This produces a system under American law known as plea bargaining.

According to this definition of plea, Levi Aron would have to plead guilty to the charges and he didn't so as it stands now, his case will go to trial which is why his attorneys requested a change of venue.

Many people think defendants should be able to plea "Guilty by reason of insanity" which would then make a plea bargain possible.

Definition of Plea from Wikipedia...

In legal terms, a plea is simply an answer to a claim made by someone in a civil or criminal case under common law using the adversary system.
Colloquially, a plea has come to mean the assertion by a criminal defendant at arraignment, or otherwise in response to a criminal charge, whether that person pleaded Guilty, Not Guilty, No Contest or Alford plea.

The concept of the plea is one of the major differences between criminal procedure under common law and procedure under the civil law system.

Under common law, a plea of guilty by the defendant waives trial of the charged offences and the defendant may be sentenced immediately. This produces a system under American law known as plea bargaining.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plea
 
Under common law, a plea of guilty by the defendant waives trial of the charged offences and the defendant may be sentenced immediately. This produces a system under American law known as plea bargaining.

According to this definition of plea, Levi Aron would have to plead guilty to the charges and he didn't so as it stands now, his case will go to trial which is why his attorneys requested a change of venue.

Many people think defendants should be able to plea "Guilty by reason of insanity" which would then make a plea bargain possible.

Definition of Plea from Wikipedia...

In legal terms, a plea is simply an answer to a claim made by someone in a civil or criminal case under common law using the adversary system.
Colloquially, a plea has come to mean the assertion by a criminal defendant at arraignment, or otherwise in response to a criminal charge, whether that person pleaded Guilty, Not Guilty, No Contest or Alford plea.

The concept of the plea is one of the major differences between criminal procedure under common law and procedure under the civil law system.

Under common law, a plea of guilty by the defendant waives trial of the charged offences and the defendant may be sentenced immediately. This produces a system under American law known as plea bargaining.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plea

Thank you BlueSky. I was thinking specifically of two cases outside of Chicago in which the defendent plead guilty without negotiating a predetermined sentence. Maybe the media added "blind plea" to differenciate between a predetermined sentence or not assuming he pled down, which I think is a common asssumption.

(hope that makes sense, am running on exhaustion here.)
 
I am interested in knowing what was going on inside Aron&#8217;s mind after he heard about the massive search that was forming for Leiby on Tuesday; the thoughts that lead up to Leiby&#8217;s murder as his anxiety and fear mounted.


I think the defense should order a CAT scan for Levi Aron to determne whether his head or brain was injured when he was involved in an accident at around 10-years-of-age and shows any history of injury. JMO

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-08-04-14-13-46


Respectfully snipped.

I have the same questions. However possibly for different reasons. I am very much interested in a psychiatrists view of how LA reacted to the mass crowd of searchers which he may very well have reacted in the same manner he would a 'mob crowd'.

With all due respect to those willing to immediately go out and search for Leiby, what led trained police officers to Leiby and LA was the single individual who was able to obtain the survelliance in such a quick manner. IIRC that survelliance was first discovered prior to the mass group gathering in the streets...(and the media attention). At one point while I was following the case as it was happening, I was honestly concerned over LE's ability to both search and maintain crowd control. It may not have changed the outcome, but I will always be left wondering - if LA had only not been concerned about being confronted by thousands in the streets :(


As for a CAT-scan for an accident which occured more than 20 years ago... ( forgive me, I forget how old LA is currently) I would have a hard time believing there would not have been a diagnosis well documented many many years ago.

From personal experience with those suffering from mental illness many are ashamed of it. My gut is telling me LA likely suffers from a previously dx'd mental illness and he uses the car accident at age 9 as a 'mask' to 'shield' his actual diagnosis. I'm sure he is well aware he is noticably 'different' to others and due to societys image of the mentally ill, an accident is much easier to use as explanation.

jmo
 

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