GUILTY NY - Leiby Kletzky, 8, Brooklyn, 11 July 2011 - #2

[Cubby]

That post was getting a little lengthy. A little OT, and I am no expert but I have read a CAT scan is the only true way to get an actual diagnosis of (certain?) mental illness. I'm not sure how often it is used....

Additionally, the mention of studying LA's brain brought back to memory the forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Helen Morrison, who studied John Wayne Gacy's brain after he was executed. End result, no differences from a normal human brain. She wrote a book titled My Life Among Serial Killers. I've haven't read the book, but what is available online is somewhat interesting. (Not to insinuate LA is a serial killer, just commenting on the study of the human brain.)

 

[Kat]

Perhaps I'm mistaken but I thought competency was an entirely different thing from mental illness defense? I thought competency was only to determine if the defendent can assist in the defense and understand the charges against him and the court proceedings. JMHO

 

[Cubby]

Perhaps I'm mistaken but I thought competency was an entirely different thing from mental illness defense? I thought competency was only to determine if the defendent can assist in the defense and understand the charges against him and the court proceedings. JMHO

IIRC it was explained upthread. I think comptent to stand trial means he understands the charges against him and can participate in his defense.

 

[Crosby87]

<snipped>

The idea of an insanity defense is just not acceptable, &#8220; Hikind said. &#8220;He planned and plotted this entire horror that he committed.&#8221; After Aron was arrested, one of his ex-wives alleged that Aron was obsessed with American Idol and becoming famous in some way: "For him, the meeting of this little poor boy was a chance to shine into media and make himself known.".


- These comments made by Hikind and Aron&#8217;s ex-wife&#8217;s can poison the minds of potential jury members.

IMO, the surveillance tape which shows Leiby approaching Aron on the street and asking him for help and Aron&#8217;s written confession prove the kidnapping and first degree murder charges which the State laid against Aron are false and embellished.

If Aron&#8217;s case is tried by a Jury, will all twelve jury members be able to convict Aron on these two accounts? The burden is on the State to prove Aron planned to murder Leiby before he presumably &#8220;kidnapped&#8221; Leiby and lured him away in his car and after reading a more detailed version of Aron&#8217;s confession I don&#8217;t believe he kidnapped Leiby off the street. Therefore I believe the defense did the right thing by entering a &#8220;not guilty&#8221; plea for their client.

A pretrial hearing was set for Oct. 14.

It's important to note that Aron left out any mention of the fact that Leiby had been heavily drugged, forced to swallow "an overdose of muscle relaxant, antipsychotics, pain medication and acetaminophen" before he was smothered; nor is there any mention of Leiby being tied up before his death.

Emotions can easily be suppressed and the clerk who saw the pair together Monday evening said in his opinion Leiby wasn&#8217;t under duress but we know differently because Leiby was lost and separated from his mother whom he was scheduled to meet.

Aron stated he was suffering from acute back pain on Monday and he decided before he went to the wedding that he wouldn&#8217;t stay late but because Aron was held up in traffic, he didn&#8217;t arrive home until 11:30 pm. If Aron had thoughts of taking Leiby home Monday evening, he most likely would have put them on hold since he had to show up for work early Tuesday morning.

None of Aron&#8217;s co-workers were aware LA was experiencing acute back pain on Monday yet when a person is in physical pain it can adversely affect their mood and cause them to drastically alter their behavior.

Levi Aron&#8217;s Confession:
<snipped>

&#8220;&#8230;..On Monday evening around 5:30 pm, I went to my dentist, Dr. Sorcher, to make a payment for visit for exam routine. A boy approached me on where the Judaic Book Store was, and he was still there when I came out of the dentist&#8217;s office. He asked me for a ride to the Judaic Book Store. While on the way there, he got confused and wasn&#8217;t sure where he wanted to go. So I asked him if he wanted to go for a ride to the wedding in Monsey since I didn&#8217;t think I was going to stay very late because my back was hurting and he said okay. Due to traffic I got back to the house around 11:30 pm and my back was hurting from earlier that day, so I brought him to my house thinking I would return him to his house the next day. He watched TV then fell asleep in the front room. I went to the middle room to sleep. That next morning he was still sleeping when I was ready to leave so I woke him and told him I would take him home when I got back. Afterwards, towards the end of the day when I saw the fliers I panicked and was afraid and when I got home, he was still there. So I made him a tuna sandwich. I was still in a panic from the fliers and afraid to bring him to his house. This is when approximately; I went for a towel to smother him in the side room. He fought back a little bit until eventually he stopped breathing Afterwards I panicked because I didn&#8217;t know what to do with the body. After about 15-20 minutes, I carried the body into the front room to start by placing the body on the mattress.&#8221; &#8230;..

http://gothamist.com/2011/08/05/accused_child_killer_levi_arons_con.php

 

[Cubby]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I don't know enough about the statues and legal requirements for the definitions of kidnapping and/or 1st degree murder in NY.

There is a lot more gory media spin, especially with Hikind's comments. Do I think LA planned and plotted? It hasn't been proven yet. Do I think LA can have a group of 12 untainted jurors? In a city of 7 million almost certaintly. We WS'rs follow these details of crimes. Many many people mention, yes I've heard of the case but have only minimal knowledge.

Also in the above article linked by bluesky another atty mentioned something along the lines of not having much option of a defense other than insanity. That leads me to believe there may be a lot of public hardballing (for lack of a better word) between the attorneys for both sides to appeal to the publics outrage prior to negotiating somekind of deal. Of course depending on the outcome of any testing LA receives.

jmo

 

[Crosby87]

If the voices Aron hears in his head told him to kill Leiby on Tuesday when he got home from work, he should have written what the voices said to him in his confession and he didn’t. Because Aron didn’t reveal what the voices said to him suggests Aron was not under their control and following orders on Tuesday when he murdered Leiby so IMO the voices he may hear in his head from time to time did not play a direct role in his crime and that is why his lawyer said “Aron’s psychiatric report made references to Aron’s claim of hearing voices but ”was not clear on the issue.”

Aron admitted he murdered Leiby because “afterwards, towards the end of the day when I saw the fliers I panicked and was afraid and when I got home, he was still there. So I made him a tuna sandwich. I was still in a panic from the fliers and afraid to bring him to his house. This is when approximately; I went for a towel to smother him in the side room.” So there is no mention of Aron hearing "voices in his head" on Tuesday like Vince Li did.

Vince Li claimed he heard what he thought was the voice of God last July, telling him to kill McLean or risk being killed himself. The attack was sudden and came as Li caught a glimpse of the sunlight and heard God's voice telling him that McLean was a threat," Rootenberg testified. "The voice said, `Do it now ... If you don't, he's going to kill you.'" "He did not appreciate the act he committed was morally wrong. He believed he was acting in self defense and that he had been commanded by God to do so."

Both the Crown and the defence agreed that Vince Li who beheaded Tim McLean on a GreyHound Bus is a schizophrenic who was suffering a psychotic episode when he killed the 22-year-old McLean. The voices Aron heard will be further evaluated when Aron is examined by psychiatric experts hired by both defense and prosecuting attorneys McCann said.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20090304/bus_verdict_090305/

http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2011/08/04/leiby-kletzky-murder-case-levi-aron-found-fit-for-trial/

 

[Crosby87]

Here is a recent case where the defendant claims they were directed by God to commit murder.

A New Jersey mother who wanted to escape this world of pain and suffering told the Judge God told her to kill herself and her two daughters. This woman was 34 y.o. when she this happened and Aron is 35 years-of-age.

NJ Mom Found Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity March 2011

MORRISTOWN, N.J. (AP) &#8212; A judge has found a New Jersey woman not guilty by reason of insanity in the strangulation murder of her 4-year-old daughter and the attempted murder of her 6-year-old daughter.

The judge ordered Jenny Erazo-Rodriguez civilly committed to the state Human Services Department.

She had a long history of mental illness.

The 34-year-old claimed she heard a voice from God in 2009 that told her to kill herself and her two daughters in Morris Township so they could end their sufferings.

The Daily Record of Parsippany reported both the Morris County Prosecutor&#8217;s Office and defense lawyers had retained psychiatrists who reached the same opinion that the mother is legally insane and not criminally responsible.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/03/04/nj-mom-not-guilty-by-reason-of-insanity/

 

[BeanE]

Insanity and Criminal Responsibility
August 1, 2011

http://www.clinicalforensicpsychology.org/insanity-and-criminal-responsibility/

I do not believe that Aron was insane at the time of killing Leiby, because he was functional, that is, he understood what he was supposed to do for his job, and he carried out those tasks adequately enough to keep his job. That tells me he was functional, and not insane.

 

[BeanE]

Suicide watch kept on confessed killer Levi Aron
Published: Aug. 8, 2011 at 2:31 PM

Confessed child killer Levi Aron has been moved from New York's Bellevue Hospital to Rikers Island and put on a round-the-clock suicide watch, authorities said.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011...r-Levi-Aron/UPI-50261312828301/#ixzz1UTETp7R8

 

[Crosby87]

Insanity and Criminal Responsibility
August 1, 2011

http://www.clinicalforensicpsychology.org/insanity-and-criminal-responsibility/

I do not believe that Aron was insane at the time of killing Leiby, because he was functional, that is, he understood what he was supposed to do for his job, and he carried out those tasks adequately enough to keep his job. That tells me he was functional, and not insane.

Levi Aron was a hardware supply store clerk and today many people with a mental illness or intellectual disability work in similar types of positions and do okay as long as they "stay on their meds". Vince Li worked as a church janitor before he murdered Tim McLean.

The fact Aron was able to work a full-time job doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean he doesn&#8217;t have a long-standing mental condition. One of his ex-wives said he was having problems because of the auto accident he was in when he was a child around Leiby&#8217;s age, but she didn&#8217;t elaborate.

'We believe him to have some psychiatric disorder' Bazille said. Aron&#8217;s attorney added Aron is getting 'treatment' but he would not elaborate.

In his confession Aron stated he was having back pain on Monday while he was at work and the police claim they found Rx medication in his apartment but at this point we don&#8217;t know whether the medication was for back pain or to treat and control a psychiatric disorder.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...al-killing-Leiby-Kletzky-8.html#ixzz1UTWvo9dw

 

[Crosby87]

I have a hard time believing Vince Li and people who commit murder and were found to be &#8220;not guilty by reason of insanity&#8221; are found &#8220;fit to stand trial&#8221;. Generally speaking, I don&#8217;t believe they have the education and experience required to follow the course of a legal trial and reasonably instruct a lawyer and those that can are an exception. Most people charged with a serious crime hire a lawyer to help them understand what is going on and they rely on their lawyer for sound legal advice because they do not have the education and training required nor a working knowledge of the legal system.

Li immigrated from China and had a limited education and no prior criminal record so his knowledge and experience with the legal system would have been extremely limited so how he could he reasonably instruct his lawyer?

Aron told police he &#8220;panicked&#8221; on Tuesday when he saw photos of the missing boy on fliers but it is unclear whether Aron knew police and hundreds of community members were desperately searching Borough Park in helicopters, on horseback and on foot for the 8-year-old boy who was born on July 29th, 2002 since he did not include this in his written confession.

http://www.amny.com/urbanite-1.812039/desperate-search-for-missing-9-year-old-brooklyn-1.3021041

 

[Crosby87]

Here is a case where two mentally impaired teenagers were deemed "Unfit to Stand Trial"

Black Saturday accused are mentally impaired, court hears; "Unfit to Stand Trial"

August 9, 2011 -- TWO teenagers have been deemed &#8220;unfit to stand trial&#8221; over a killer Black Saturday bushfire because of impaired mental capability. The boys were charged with arson causing death and intentionally or recklessly causing a bushfire.

<snipped>

A jury yesterday found the pair unfit to be tried over the February 7, 2009, blaze in Long Gully, near Bendigo, in which Kevin Kane died.

The boys were charged with arson causing death and intentionally or recklessly causing a bushfire. Now aged 15 and 16, they were aged 13 and 14 at the time.

The Supreme Court was told both had IQs below 60. The average IQ is about 100.
Justice Paul Coghlan told the jury the hearing was an investigation only into whether the two were fit to stand trial.

In evidence, a clinical psychologist said the 15-year-old, diagnosed with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, had a mild to moderate intellectual disability.
He believed the boy had a limited sense of right and wrong and did not have the capacity to follow the course of a legal trial or reasonably instruct a lawyer.

The 16-year-old had presented in a more childlike manner than his younger co-accused. He also had a mild to moderate level of intellectual disability.

The court was told other mental experts backed the psychologist's recommendation that the two teenagers were unfit to plead.

Crown prosecutor Kieran Gilligan said there was no dispute between the parties; the evidence was unanimous and overwhelming.

Peter Chadwick, SC, for the 15-year-old, said the court process was the mark of a civilised society.

"The evidence is all one way," Mr Chadwick said.

Nick Papas, SC, for the other boy, said he agreed with the prosecution, saying the evidence was abundantly clear.

The jury found the teenagers unfit to stand trial.

They are expected to face a special hearing, much like a trial, on a date to be fixed.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mo...y-bushfire-trial/story-fn7x8me2-1226111233216

 

[BeanE]

Levi Aron was a hardware supply store clerk and today many people with a mental illness or intellectual disability work in similar types of positions and do okay as long as they "stay on their meds". Vince Li worked as a church janitor before he murdered Tim McLean.

The fact Aron was able to work a full-time job doesn’t necessarily mean he doesn’t have a long-standing mental condition. One of his ex-wives said he was having problems because of the auto accident he was in when he was a child around Leiby’s age, but she didn’t elaborate.

'We believe him to have some psychiatric disorder' Bazille said. Aron’s attorney added Aron is getting 'treatment' but he would not elaborate.

Persons with mental illness, intellectual disabilities, mental conditions, long-standing psychiatric disorders - on or off meds - working or not - are by no means automatically equivalent to insane or legally insane.

 

[MsFacetious]

Persons with mental illness, intellectual disabilities, mental conditions, long-standing psychiatric disorders - on or off meds - working or not - are by no means automatically equivalent to insane or legally insane.

There is also a very big difference between cognitive disability and mental illness.

A teenager who is cognitively disabled and doesn't understand that starting a fire can hurt someone.

A man who violently drugs, suffocates and dismembers a child.

I have two children with totally different special needs. One with a visible disability that "gets it" and one that looks totally typical yet has NO comprehension of cause and effect.

I have already worked on and reinforced repeatedly cause and effect things that most people wouldn't think about doing more than once. Because I have a child who is covered in cat scratches... because she KNOWS the cat is going to scratch her if she doesn't put it down when it meows... she has been told repeatedly... but she still doesn't put it down.

Her brain just doesn't connect the meowing cat with the scratch that is coming.
Her brain also doesn't see the car coming at her, the hot stove... she is impulsive and doesn't consider/remember/care about consequences.

Then there is my cousin who is mentally ill. He tried to kill his Grandmother because she took his car keys when he was drinking.
When he is on meds he is wonderful... when he's not... he could kill someone.

One has to be taught... supervised...
The other has to be supervised and medicated... if they don't cooperate then they have to be kept where they won't hurt someone.

He told detectives that he was hearing voices telling him &#8220;to take his own life for what he did,&#8221; according to court papers. He also told police who took him in "I'm famous," according to court papers.

Sounds like consciousness of guilt to me.

Sounds consist with his ex-wife's talking about him wanting to be famous... American Idol... etc.

 

[Crosby87]

This case seems more like a crime of passion that&#8217;s committed in the heat of the moment and not a premeditated kidnapping and first degree murder IMO.

The State&#8217;s case against Aron would be a lot easier to win if Aron had taken LK for sexual gratification, which is the motive in many missing children&#8217;s cases, but all the reports state Aron did not murder LK to cover up a sex crime. Aron said several times in his confession that he intended to return the boy home but he became afraid and panicked and that is what led him to smother the boy and remove his body from his apartment.

Levi Aron invited Leiby to ride with him to the wedding Monday evening instead of taking him home to his family and because no one finds his actions acceptable or &#8220;within reason&#8221;, the State determined Aron must have planned to kidnap and murder a child which is why Aron is charged with kidnapping and first degree murder.

The choice Aron made to befriend the child and keep him at his house suggests Aron lacks the ability to reason when he was placed in this situation. Aron said he intended to take the boy home but as time wore on this was not longer possible because the fear and panic he felt overpowered his intention or will.

Aron showed an inability to apply logic or reason when he asked Leiby if he wanted to go for a ride to a wedding Monday evening and I believe people who lack reason are called idiots and perhaps even insane. Aron&#8217;s childlike manner may indicate he has a mild to moderate level of intellectual disability; the prosecutors and Aron&#8217;s defense team plan to have Aron&#8217;s mental status evaluated to determine if he is insane. His past medical history which includes the injuries he sustained in a car accident when he was a child will be reviewed in this exam.

Aron did not take control of the situation and apply logic and reason and he did not behave like an adult is expected to when a lost child approached him on the street while he was preoccupied with his own affairs. It took Aron by surprise and unaware and as a result the situation grew worse and spun out of Aron's control creating the worst possible outcome. JMO

Aron&#8217;s Confession:
<snipped>

&#8230;.. &#8220;He asked me for a ride to the Judaic Book Store. While on the way there, he got confused and wasn&#8217;t sure where he wanted to go. So I asked him if he wanted to go for a ride to the wedding in Monsey since I didn&#8217;t think I was going to stay very late because my back was hurting and he said okay. Due to traffic I got back to the house around 11:30 pm and my back was hurting from earlier that day, so I brought him to my house thinking I would return him to his house the next day. He watched TV then fell asleep in the front room. I went to the middle room to sleep. That next morning he was still sleeping when I was ready to leave so I woke him and told him I would take him home when I got back. Afterwards, towards the end of the day when I saw the fliers I panicked and was afraid and when I got home, he was still there. So I made him a tuna sandwich. I was still in a panic from the fliers and afraid to bring him to his house. This is when approximately; I went for a towel to smother him in the side room. He fought back a little bit until eventually he stopped breathing Afterwards I panicked because I didn&#8217;t know what to do with the body. After about 15-20 minutes, I carried the body into the front room to start by placing the body on the mattress&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;

http://gothamist.com/2011/08/05/accused_child_killer_levi_arons_con.php

 

[ruthieroo]

Short article just basically claims LA has a personality disorder - also states his sister passed away while institutionalized for schizophrenia which I hadn't read before.

Apologies to anyone who may have already posted this information.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/08/10/levi-aron-suspect-in-murder-of-leiby-kletzky-has-personality-disorder/

 

[Crosby87]

Short article just basically claims LA has a personality disorder - also states his sister passed away while institutionalized for schizophrenia which I hadn't read before.

Apologies to anyone who may have already posted this information.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/08/10/levi-aron-suspect-in-murder-of-leiby-kletzky-has-personality-disorder/

The COD for Levi Aron's mother who has been deceased for 8 years has not been released AFAIK. Levi's father remarried and Levi's two brothers live on the main floor with Aron's father, stepmother and uncle. One of Aron's brothers is 19 years of age so there is a 15 year gap between him and Levi. Debbie Kivel, Levi’s ex-wife, said Sarah's death approximately 2 years ago was caused after she mixed medications and fell and hit her head so this information about her being schizophrenic and living in an institution when she died is new.

 

[Crosby87]

More details released on Levi Aron's psychiatric evaluation:

<snipped>
A psychologist diagnosed him with an adjustment disorder and a personality disorder with schizoid features.

Schizophrenia is a mental disorder characterized by disintegration of thought processes and diminished emotional responsiveness. A person is more likely to have it if a close family member, such as his sister who died, has it.

<mod snip>


"The evaluators agreed with us that Mr. Aron suffers from some psychiatric disorders and right now we are investigating whether or not his disorders are sufficient to meet the not guilty by reason of mental disease or mental defect threshold," he said.

Read complete article at: http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Levi-Aron-Psychiatric-Evaluation-Leiby-Kletzky--127474598.html

 

[CanManEh]

Hey maybe someone remember this ..I don't even know how long ago i believe this year but a case where the mom or i believe it was a mom i know it was a woman did something and i believe it was murdered a child but when they showed her on either JVM or NG she was coming in to jail the so called perp walk but she was all jittery or almost looked like she was in convulsions all messed up at the least..does anyone remember seeing this lady on one of those too shows ..reason iam asking is because that is kind of how this guy looked to me dont get me wrong i dont care if he is insane he needs to be well taken care off and not by nurses ..

 

[Crosby87]

Hey maybe someone remember this ..I don't even know how long ago i believe this year but a case where the mom or i believe it was a mom i know it was a woman did something and i believe it was murdered a child but when they showed her on either JVM or NG she was coming in to jail the so called perp walk but she was all jittery or almost looked like she was in convulsions all messed up at the least..does anyone remember seeing this lady on one of those too shows ..reason iam asking is because that is kind of how this guy looked to me dont get me wrong i dont care if he is insane he needs to be well taken care off and not by nurses ..

When Kristi Abrahams was arrested along with her partner Robert Smith in April 2011 for the murder of her 6-year-old daughter Kiesha Weippeart, she stumbled when she was taken into custody and police officers had to hold her up. Kristi covered her head with a blanket so perhaps she stumbled because she couldn’t see where she was going but a media report said she collapsed because she was so distraught. Kristi and Robert alleged Kiesha was abducted during the night from her bedroom and police arrested the couple when they went to Kiesha’s make shift grave on her 7th birthday.

This link contains a video which shows Kristi stumbling when she was escorted into the police station.

http://www.news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8240284/couple-charged-with-murdering-sydney-girl