NY-LI 10 bodies found on Beach-Poss. SrlKlr-12/10-4 id'd; more found 3/11 #11

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respectfully snipped~~~

maybe face down as not to look into faces...perhaps at the time of disgarding, our killer is remorseful and feels guilty or ashamed.

Hmmm.... It's ironic that you mentioned this possiblity, minazoe. I have often wondered if this could be the reason for the GB4 being wrapped in burlap.

wm
 
on staging..

could it be our killer is simply a neat freak? It doesn't ring true as staging to me, there doesn't seem to be any shock value, simply a neat line to say, trust in knowing these bodies are all my work.

nothing more, really, except he took the shoes...

no obscene poses, no items, notes or random markings on the bodies.

this guy is a tight-rear , neat freak.

Staging can have many reasons and come in many forms. Basically, we can distinguish two different kinds of staging:

- Remorse staging
That is, when the killer feels remorse for his deed. Which of course doesn't stop him from killing, after he is done with being remorseful. Typical poses are laying out the victims on the back, arms at the side or crossed over the breast. Another variant of that is staging in sleeping positions (for example lateral/embryonic with hands together under the head).

- Statement staging
That is a wide category, from the one placing just a body part on a highly significant place till for example laying them out face down in a ditch or a shallow grave. The exact way to do so, depends on the statement and the postmortem relationship, the killer thinks, he has still to his victim.

Laying out bodies consequently face down is a symbolic of disgust and as such a gesture of self-justification. Consequently would such a staging include more of the context from which this disgust aka the self-made justification to kill this special victim, stems. Since burying face down is a symbolic mainly known in a lot of cultures in two forms, the other details are distinctive for the cultural background, in which the staging has to be understood. Face-down means either disgust or protection in the form of preventing, that the spirit of the ghost in any forma can raise again to haunt the killer. In any case, it's a symbolic from burial rituals, which means, we are looking for burial rituals which have specific rules for the directions, in which the dead looks and which probably has specific rules for shoes. In fact, there is such a ritual with according rules in literature. But since it's a non-Christian one, I am not allowed to speak out which one it is, according to the board rules. However, I am pretty sure, if I would know AC better, I would find for the time of the murders, maybe until today, not too far from the street corners, those prostitutes worked a center or place of worship, maybe discretely hid away.
 
Peter, I think you missed my whole point. The victims were within proximity to one another, faces down in the water, and facing east. I am saying if it is the perp's intent to have the faces in the water strictlty to ensure death, then all four would necessarily be facing east. In other words, it could be part of the MO instead of part of the signature. While I agree it could signify ritual burial, please don't disregard the opinions or input of others just because they don't fit with your theory. My theory is just as valid as yours (well i think so, anyway ;))

I don't disregard anything till we hit the borders of technical possibilities. However, when we reach the area of "not possible" in a mere technical sense, I can become a little bit stubborn. If the bodies were placed in the water strictly to ensure death, as in drowning, than the faces would be in the water, to make sure, they drown. Which, for a body laying face down, would be downward. And if it's accident, then I claim, human heads on human nacks have the possibility to turn left or right, so it's a 50/50, unless there is a reason for the killer who has done the body dropping, to turn the face always eastward. But hey, I never tried to stop anybody to follow other ideas.
 
I am inclined to take nothing from the positions of the bodies, except to indicate neatness, possibly the idea that the faces would decompose more quickly, possibly a foot fetish, probably a neat freak.

possible remorse as part of cycle.

I am not so sold on a religious aspect. IMO.

also perhaps they were face down as to spare innocent (non-prostitute) passerbys...shock and horror to some degree.
 
There actually is a form of Sadistic Personality Disorder which does not involve sexual sadism:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10372350

http://www.forensicpsychiatry.ca/paraphilia/sadPD.htm

In fact, both articles deal with the discussion at DSM-III times when DSM-IV was coming up (currently we are working on DSM-V) whether SPD (Sadistic Personality Disorder) is to be treated in the sense of diagnostics as a personality disorder on it's own (worth an own diagnosis listed in the DSM) or simply a possible side effect of other, already included personality disorders, namely anti-social personality disorder or narcissistic personality disorder. Both articles consequently make no difference between sadism in- and outside the bed as far as it has a pathological dimension, which would be necessary to speak from a PD in any form. So, those articles don't talk about a special SPD without sexual component but about SPD from a more generalized point of view in the sense of it's autonomy from anti-social personality disorder and/or narcissistic personality disorder. We should here add other forms of paraphilia disorders as well, especially some fetishs demanding subduing victims in the first place to gain access to the object of obsession, even they are not explicitly included in the articles, but cases like Volker Eckert in Germany or, with another focus, Marc Dutrout in Belgium have raised those possibilities from theory to reality a long time ago.
For the better understanding should we also keep in mind, that torture and rape are not in all cases and always constitute an SPD at all times. The term SPD is limited to a behavior that causes pain/humiliation for the goal of gaining an emotional reward, which in itself is probably always of a sexual nature (which by the way isn't doubted in those articles in the first place).
 
I am inclined to take nothing from the positions of the bodies, except to indicate neatness, possibly the idea that the faces would decompose more quickly, possibly a foot fetish, probably a neat freak.

possible remorse as part of cycle.

I am not so sold on a religious aspect. IMO.

also perhaps they were face down as to spare innocent (non-prostitute) passerbys...shock and horror to some degree.

Face down, as body on the belly, head turned to the East as in sideways. TOD is more estimated by the time, the victims were last seen than by ME reports, which were, because of the disposal in water, not too conclusive about times. COD by the way was strangulation/asphyxiation (due to the long time it took till the bodies were found in one or two cases hard to say).
The bodies were placed in ditches, except for the last one, which was laying in a dry trench, if I remember right. Correct me, if not.
One nice thing, I found out about American SKs is, that religion plays a much bigger role than in European cases. Real cases of religious delusions are rare, but often, SKs, raised in a religious households, have some injection of basically religious ideas in their signatures, even the deed itself or the motives of the SK have nothing to do with religion in the first place. As examples can serve for example the Son of Sam or also Jeffrey Dahmer, who's altar building included parts of Christian symbolic, even it was in a very twisted way.
 
okay, yeah...I think based on the demographic that this killer is white, middle aged and grew up in a traditional Catholic household.

just because of "where" and for no other reason except a feeling I have that our killer is educated and frustrated by relationships.

so he decides when it ends....giving him great satisfaction.

identify and obtain the girl

act out sbdm fantasy ( which includes unwitting victim)
removal and storage of items he wishes to keep.
kill and end relationship entirely. ( re-enactment of a rejection or situation where he felt helpless) so he CONTROLS the outcome of this relationship.

I think it's a super dirty secret...I don't think he goes to confession...
 
I also think he might have a sidekick...or an interested party, someone very close to him.
 
highly sexual male, wants to dominate all aspects of a female...his sexual deviation has probably been there since high school...I bet he knows a lot of women who know a lot about his sexuality....by killing these prostitutes he gets a trifecta...

he can fully act out his fantasies and the girl will never walk in a bar and start talking about him, he won't get reported..and he can pretend to be normal with his everyday relationship.
 
okay, yeah...I think based on the demographic that this killer is white, middle aged and grew up in a traditional Catholic household.

just because of "where" and for no other reason except a feeling I have that our killer is educated and frustrated by relationships.

so he decides when it ends....giving him great satisfaction.

identify and obtain the girl

act out sbdm fantasy ( which includes unwitting victim)
removal and storage of items he wishes to keep.
kill and end relationship entirely. ( re-enactment of a rejection or situation where he felt helpless) so he CONTROLS the outcome of this relationship.

I think it's a super dirty secret...I don't think he goes to confession...

Which one? LISK2, Manorville Torso, AC?
 
oh, AC AND OBeach. I think they are connected.
 
.... Both articles consequently make no difference between sadism in- and outside the bed as far as it has a pathological dimension ...

Regardless of whether DSM III or V, the relevant research still states that sexual-sadism is a part of SPD, but not all sadists are sexual sadists.

From the first article I linked above:

Of those patients with SPD, 42.1% also had a DSM-III-R diagnosis of sexual sadism, which may be the most dangerous configuration.

The second article states that SPD is:

Pervasive pattern of behavior which characterizd by cruel, manipulative, demeaning and possibly aggressive behavior towards others. The behaviour usually begins in childhood and is consistent thereafter. It is evident in social, personal and occupational situations to varying degrees. The SPD takes pleasure in the humiliation, control and domination of others.

It is well recognized that not all those who engage in cruelty, torture, etc. are sexually aroused while engaging in such behaviour (Dietz et al., 1990; Hazelwood, Dietz & Warren, 1992).
<bbm>

We most likely ARE dealing with sexual sadism because the LISK victims were primarily involved in the sex trade; I guess i'm splitting hairs on this however, as I strongly feel that relevant research indicates only a percentage of SPD involves the sexually sadistic component.

Forensic psychiatrist, Stephen Hucker states that, while the two are related, it is important to make the distinction between the two:

http://www.forensicpsychiatry.ca/paraphilia/sadism.htm

I'm not a psychiatrist or an expert however, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.
 
We most likely ARE dealing with sexual sadism because the LISK victims were primarily involved in the sex trade; I guess i'm splitting hairs on this however, as I strongly feel that relevant research indicates only a percentage of SPD involves the sexually sadistic component.

Forensic psychiatrist, Stephen Hucker states that, while the two are related, it is important to make the distinction between the two:

http://www.forensicpsychiatry.ca/paraphilia/sadism.htm

I'm not a psychiatrist or an expert however, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.[/QUOTE]

I have to stay on the subject because it falls in my main area of interest. The whole discussion appears to be part of the ongoing DSM-V struggle in this aspect. The older definitions (for example Hazelwood) basically define all pervasive cruel behavior as sadism while they define sadism in bed as part of the SPD and the same time as paraphilia, so technically the same group of NODs they just pack also Necrophilia in. Which lead to some struggle with the current definition process in DSM-V. To me, with the special focus on SKs, the definition of all permanently repeated cruelty has a little kink, because we have enough extreme cases to prove, that, what is defined as sadistic behavior in the DSM-III and IV definitions is not even primary behavior but just method to gain access to a fetish. Which, between my studies of psychology and my studying of real world serial killers, make me slowly a little bit of a DPD patient. I know the psychological definition, only it doesn't work if used on real life cases. But when talking about real SKs, I tend a little bit more to use, what can be observed in real life:

- Volkert Eckert (A German case): Hair fetish, murder by strangulation, beating to subdue the victim premortem. The whole picture of sadistic behavior was there, when the bodies were found, but when caught, it became clear, it was just his method to the object of his obsession (I will prepare that case for my website next month if I find time). In Eckert's case things got even more interesting, because over time, he developed a secondary obsession with strangulation. The method became over time a part of his sexual behavior, but it was not reason. In fact, it was part of a pattern of necrophilia, as such a paraphilia disorder.

- Jeffrey Dahmer: He obviously raped, killed and ate people (in fact, he ate only some parts of some victims). Since it was a repeating case of rape and killing, everybody jumped on the SPD train in that case (it was long before DSM-III of course). Special mark in that case was, that he in some cases drilled holes in the heads of his victims and filled in drain cleaner or hot water. Clearly sadistic behavior? But then, it came out, he tried to create an always available sex zombie, which was reasoned by a combination of OCD in connection with abandonment issues. The "obvious" sadistic acts were method to reach a goal.

I could bring more, but the problem is clear. The definition of an SPD would work in a generalized form AFTER an SK is caught. But it doesn't cover really cruel behavior, we can for example watch on crime scenes in SK cases. The SPD diagnosis in this statistics from the article you linked, doesn't cover such behavior in cases it is used to reach a goal or gain access to a fetish. In that, I tend to the paraphilia definition, rather than to the definition of SPD as stand alone picture in the DSM (like the author of the second article, you linked).
 
Any idea then, why staging iand no shoes but clothes but naked, wrapped in burlap and no staging at GB?

we have speculated that he is in a different situation when he is Atlantic City, either in the way he travels, or the reason he goes there. Where he has a more leisurely experience when he is in LI, perhaps he has his own car here, is down at the coast for more casual reasons, has more time etc....nearer to home.
 
we have speculated that he is in a different situation when he is Atlantic City, either in the way he travels, or the reason he goes there. Where he has a more leisurely experience when he is in LI, perhaps he has his own car here, is down at the coast for more casual reasons, has more time etc....nearer to home.

If, then the more elaborate ritual would happen nearer to home. Which would make his home AC. The GB bodies were just quick drops.
 
I don't disregard anything till we hit the borders of technical possibilities. However, when we reach the area of "not possible" in a mere technical sense, I can become a little bit stubborn. If the bodies were placed in the water strictly to ensure death, as in drowning, than the faces would be in the water, to make sure, they drown. Which, for a body laying face down, would be downward. And if it's accident, then I claim, human heads on human nacks have the possibility to turn left or right, so it's a 50/50, unless there is a reason for the killer who has done the body dropping, to turn the face always eastward. But hey, I never tried to stop anybody to follow other ideas.

Ahh ... i think i've discovered the source of our varied opinions. Maybe we are visualizing two different things. For some reason, i've always been picturing that the bodies were at right angles to the ditch with only their faces immersed, as opposed to the bodies being fully laid out in the ditch.

:truce:
 
I feel that stripping the bodies and concealing them in the brush wrapped in burlap is more elaborate...but perhaps the AC dump is more dangerous and showy.

do we have a map or view of the area? I seem to recall a boardwalk area, maybe a parking area and some overhead lighting.

do the cops have an idea of when they may have been put there? at night? during the day?

is it a place where a girl might take a john for a quick service back in the grass or a car?

could the murders have happened right there? just walking for a smoke or a chat? maybe to smoke drugs back in the grasses behind a bar or food place?

the reason I say this is because it's a busy place and if I was killing a girl in say a motel room or in my car, I would want to hide the body away from people and traffic, If I hid the body at all. I wouldn't want to drive to a place with patrols and businesses.

so maybe this isn't an attempt to hide anything and is actually the murder scene.
 
In Gilgo murders probe, Suffolk cops reach out to websites

"Suffolk police are reaching out to online publications geared toward the law enforcement community in pursuit of information on the five bodies discovered in the Gilgo Beach investigation that remain unidentified."

"They're providing the information to websites frequented by law enforcement but also read by a wider audience.."

"The information includes photos of jewelry worn by a female victim and toddler who may have been her daughter, reconstructive facial drawings of a female victim that, like the five bodies identified so far, police suspect may have been a prostitute, and an Asian man found in female clothes. The presumed homicide victims were found along the South Shore last spring."

"The website policeone.com published the information and an interview with Groneman Friday. Groneman said several similar sites have also been contacted and he expects them to publish the information soon."

"Investigators have been going through tips that came in following the release of information in September. Groneman said there have been cases where people came forward to say the sketches resembled missing persons they had known."

"Such specific tips -- actual names -- are a boon to investigators because they can often be confirmed or ruled out quickly, he said. So far, Groneman said, none of the names investigators have been given has been linked to the unidentified bodies. Not all tips have been fully exhausted and Groneman is hopeful."

"It only takes one," he said.

"Artists are working on a third sketch of a woman whose severed legs were found on Fire Island in 1996 and whose skull was found April 11 near Jones Beach. Groneman said he expects the image to be released within two weeks."

http://www.newsday.com/news/breakin...-suffolk-cops-reach-out-to-websites-1.3235759



Jessica Taylor - ties to Atlantic City? - Sorry if this has been mentioned.

“A partial tattoo, DNA testing and Ms. Taylor's arrest record -- she had been charged with prostitution in Washington, Atlantic City and New York -- helped identity her, he said.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/08/nyregion/in-brief-a-manorville-body-is-identified.html


“Taylor came from a small town in upstate New York and was estranged from her family. She had been arrested on prostitution charges in Washington, Atlantic City and New York City.”

Also, she lived in Brooklyn?

“In one case, from Feb. 4, 2003, Taylor solicited an undercover officer for $50 to perform a sex act in Long Island City, Queens, records show.”

“When she was being booked, Taylor assaulted a police aide, punching her in the face, police said. She pleaded guilty to prostitution and assault charges.”

“Also that month, she pleaded guilty to possession of stolen property after she was accused of driving a stolen 1995 Chevy Cavalier in the East New York section of Brooklyn, where records indicate she lived.”

http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/chilling-find-links-li-dumping-grounds-1.2865868



Missing teeth - coincidence?

“The Man at Wolf Hill Road, was found in a black plastic garbage bag on the Northern State Parkway on March 9, 2000,”
and he had a missing front tooth + 7 more missing teeth.

http://www.longislandpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Dix-Hills.jpeg
 
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