NY-LI 10 bodies found on Beach-Poss. SrlKlr-12/10-4 id'd; more found 3/11 #12

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All due respect, you are not familiar with the facts of this case to make this post. Two of the partial remains we're the missing dismembered parts from the two Manorville victim's. And the Jane Does who is the mom of the child was a skull in a plastic bag. Another is the Jane Doe whose dismembered legs were found by fire island over a decade earlier.

Unless you are suggesting that wildlife brought their remains there from Manorville?
 
All due respect, you are not familiar with the facts of this case to make this post. Two of the partial remains we're the missing dismembered parts from the two Manorville victim's. And the Jane Does who is the mom of the child was a skull in a plastic bag. Another is the Jane Doe whose dismembered legs were found by fire island over a decade earlier.

Unless you are suggesting that wildlife brought their remains there from Manorville?

is there evidence to suggest that all the bodies found in ocean parkway were intact and in perfect condition? even one of the posters here mentioned that Melissa Berthelemy's remains had been found scattered in the area, and i haven't read or heard anything that she was dismembered other than she was wrapped in a burlap sack. the police may have found the remains of the victims scattered throughout ocean parkway, and plenty of sites have stated that as well. i may not be as familiar as you are regarding this case, but i do happen to read, there was even a previous discussion here about what Melissa's mother had said about her remains being found in different parts of ocean parkway:

[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134782"]Victim - Melissa Barthelemy - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
 
Remember folks, Oak Beach is on a barrier island that is over two miles from the main part of Long Island. Even on the main island itself, there are no large cats and a red fox would be considered almost a once-in-a-lifetime encounter.

As a matter of fact, the lack of predators allows this island to be one of the largest gull breeding areas on the entire Atlantic coast. Here is the wildlife report from the Audubon Society;

Captree and Vicinity

As you can see, it's all about the birds. On Fire Island there is a white tail deer population. But on Jones Island, the largest mammal you are going to find are racoons (and they basically live off of the dumpsters, garbage cans and the trillion washed up clams, crabs, mussels and fish along the shorelines). You'll also find rats (of course) as well as common squirrels.

I have seen a fox on Ocean Parkway at night more than once. I've also seen deer by the Robert Moses Causeway entrance
 
Truthspider gave me an idea for a voice lineup.

Police can do a voice lineup of Carman Monaco Jr. You'd get two bites at the apple.

1) have Melissa's sister listen to samples from the tapes recorded during Carman's investigation. They said he called 300 times, so they probably have plenty of voice samples.

2) have Danielle Campbell from News 12 Long Island listen to voice samples from the SK's calls to Melissa's sister.

If either can make an ID, that should be enough for a search warrant.
 
All due respect, you are not familiar with the facts of this case to make this post. Two of the partial remains we're the missing dismembered parts from the two Manorville victim's. And the Jane Does who is the mom of the child was a skull in a plastic bag. Another is the Jane Doe whose dismembered legs were found by fire island over a decade earlier.

Unless you are suggesting that wildlife brought their remains there from Manorville?

the relative of the toddler wasn't just a skull in a plastic bag. her skeletal remains were discovered at some distance from where the toddler was found. the relative/mother had been wearing jewelry as well, two bracelets, and so far i haven't read anything that states she was dismembered like some of the other victims were:

Unidentified woman’s skeletal remains found 1 ½ miles east of the Jones Beach water tower on April 11, 2011, possibly the mother of the toddler

Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Se...ite-red-herrings-135313793.html#ixzz1gEs4F4gd
 
Truthspider gave me an idea for a voice lineup.

Police can do a voice lineup of Carman Monaco Jr. You'd get two bites at the apple.

1) have Melissa's sister listen to samples from the tapes recorded during Carman's investigation. They said he called 300 times, so they probably have plenty of voice samples.

2) have Danielle Campbell from News 12 Long Island listen to voice samples from the SK's calls to Melissa's sister.

If either can make an ID, that should be enough for a search warrant.

It looks like a voice lineup can be used for an arrest and conviction absent other physical evidence.
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/20/n...-of-rapes-on-the-basis-of-a-voice-lineup.html
 
food for thought...

Why are they so eager to distrust SG's version of events? if this isn't LE generated propaganda...then why are they so eager to fault Shannen? It seems like they have a whole lot of dead girls they can't account for, and yet the message seems to be that
these girls and SG in particular are the ones at fault.

Of course in our society we ask that our girls not to engage in this life ," because this is how you will end up"...girls who do this kind of thing have gone bad.

The problem is mainly that SG was in Oak Beach during the comission of a crime.

Obviously the police frown upon phonecalls from hysterical hookers after they have put themselves in compromising situations and now want protection from what ever the drama du jour is.

so hence they "couldn't find her or whatever"...

and now she's the crazy bi polar drug addict hooker that accidently drowned herself with her pants off.

even though she told us so many things through her actions before she dissapeared.

and no one in her family has ever known her to act that way.
 
Regarding the three reasons why you doubt that SG was killed by the LISK;

  1. The general consensus here among those of us who have been following the case is that they are not going to find SG burried in the marshlands at Oak Beach. Many people (including myself) belieive that there is a better chance of finding her remains in the pine barrens out in Manorville then within Oak Beach. There is also the possiblilty that her remains are somewhere along Ocean Parkway (either moved there after last year's search or in a place that was overlooked). Since we now know that Nassau County searched their portion of the parkway using bomb sniffing dogs, it is very possible that she is right there along Ocean Parkway.

The problem I have with this belief, is how the SK would fit into this picture.
If it was a neighbor, wouldn't the neighbor fear someone seeing SG walk into their house? Lets say it was still a bit dark out and they took the risk, wouldn't the fact that oak beach's population is only 300 be a dumb risk to take in regards to the other bodies? If the SK took all of those risks would he be careless enough to through her purse and belongings behind his house? If Shannon ran from all the other neighbors that offered help, what would make her comfortable walking into the SK's house?

Could SG have hid and gone through the basketball court area to the highway? Wouldn't that be just as much of a coincidence for the SK to see someone that fits all of his other victim's profiles walking along the highway?


The part about SG's purse is a bit odd. Did he keep the other victim's possessions as souvenirs? Did that allow him the time to hold on to SG's purse for a few months prior to the bodies being discovered and then throw them from the highway into the marsh, which would be a pretty long throw.

Did this have any bearing on him asking AC to not bring her purse and phone (if that is to be believed)?
 
food for thought...

Why are they so eager to distrust SG's version of events? if this isn't LE generated propaganda...then why are they so eager to fault Shannen? It seems like they have a whole lot of dead girls they can't account for, and yet the message seems to be that
these girls and SG in particular are the ones at fault.

We also don't know what went on during her phone call to 911. The operator might have been able to make an educated guess as to her mental state and actions which would be reinforced by the accounts we heard. With that said, I certainly don't trust the police and I have seen a lot of botched cases that can be chalked up to incompetence. It would be rather easy for them to dismiss considering that they pretty much have dismissed filing missing people reports and generally police do seem to easily right off people that live on the fringes of society.


The problem is mainly that SG was in Oak Beach during the comission of a crime.

I still think this could be as simple as sex workers being far more prevalent than we realize. From the picture painted in the a&E special, the calls were coming in at an alarming rate. It could be that sex workers have pretty much visited every neighborhood in Long Island at one time or the other over 15 years.


and now she's the crazy bi polar drug addict hooker that accidently drowned herself with her pants off.

True but what are the other likely scenarios? I'm extremely flexible in what could have happened. But JB being the SK doesn't pass the smell test.

CH being the SK doesn't pass it either if it is true that he has an alibi for the time one of the victims went missing. Plus the risk of other neighbors seeing, the phone calls and then throwing SG's stuff right behind his house.

MP - I could see him being responsible for SG's disappearance, but I think they ruled him out through voice and alibi's as far as him being the SK.

Unknown SK that lives in the neighborhood - that is a lot of risk to be taking from someone that seemingly is very calculated.

SK driving through the area and picking SG up? That strikes me as even more of a coincidence than SG missing on the same island as the other victims.

also, the part about the pants is definitely odd, but I don't think it's absurd that they could have separated. Animals could scatter the remnants which would be further exacerbated by the elements. If she did start to drown and her pants got snagged on something under water she could have done it herself.

I also don't think its absurd that she could have wondered into the marsh by accident. Every time there is major flooding you see cars on the news that miss calculated and drove into to deep water that they thought was shallow. Add in a car following them and a perceived threat and the likelihood of them driving into deep water increases.

Also, her mom said she couldn't swim and I did read that the marsh has some very deep sections. I heard of fisherman drowning in very small bodies of water that were deep. When they fall into murky water it becomes very easy to to loose orientation.
 
Another thing to think about. If they used bomb dogs to search for victims, they might be doing the same dog and pony show with metal detectors.

The metal detector approach would be the best way to find her as far as I know, but from my brief research on metal detectors they come in all shapes and sizes. It could be that they are using some weak hand held detector that won't pick up the metal at certain depths below the water surface.
 
Caylee Anthonthy weighed less than 1/4 of Shannan's weight, she was submerged underwater for a good part of the time and when the water finally receded and everything settled she was still there, scattered but within reasonable distance from where she was placed.

and her little t-shirt and items were there too.....everything was there, and this is the Tropics where everything is like a petri dish gone crazy.

there is reasonable doubt...I have stumbled too...anyone here who has been wildly drunk, knows how this could go down....but again, her freakout speaks volumes...

her utter lack of trust of anyone, concerns me.
that she could get in a warm car with a buddy and go home, concerns me.
that MP has 4 or 5 versions of what occured,
that someone has tipped off the police...

that officer Body Finder also located SG's wallet

that SG's wallet is behind the doctor's house...( how unfortunate for CPH)

that even though we can't find even a tiny bone belonging to SG

WE CAN"T FIND BIG ONES EITHER!

her Skull, Pelvis, Femur, Ribcage....
 
I had a thought about SG chin surgery and the metal used, assuming that it is surgical grade titanium. There have been some articles I read about metal detectors not being able to pick this up.
Just a thought and here is one article on this metal.
 
Caylee Anthonthy weighed less than 1/4 of Shannan's weight, she was submerged underwater for a good part of the time and when the water finally receded and everything settled she was still there, scattered but within reasonable distance from where she was placed.

and her little t-shirt and items were there too.....everything was there, and this is the Tropics where everything is like a petri dish gone crazy.

there is reasonable doubt...I have stumbled too...anyone here who has been wildly drunk, knows how this could go down....but again, her freakout speaks volumes...

her utter lack of trust of anyone, concerns me.
that she could get in a warm car with a buddy and go home, concerns me.
that MP has 4 or 5 versions of what occured,
that someone has tipped off the police...

that officer Body Finder also located SG's wallet

that SG's wallet is behind the doctor's house...( how unfortunate for CPH)

that even though we can't find even a tiny bone belonging to SG

WE CAN"T FIND BIG ONES EITHER!

her Skull, Pelvis, Femur, Ribcage....

I so totally agree minazoe (exept the part about her getting in a warm car with a buddy ... don't know WTH yer talking about, LOL)

Re SG's freakout and what others refer to as irrational behaviour ... i interpret her state of mind to be akin to "a normal reaction to a very abnormal set of circumstances".

I don't know if anyone here has ever experienced a terror so great that you temporarily lose your mind to the point you trust absolutely no one. Sadly, I have, and even thinking about it now conjures up a feeling that I could vomit or collapse. Did I look crazy at the time? You bet your boots I did. Was I crazy before (I don't think so)? Am I crazy now (I don't think so)?

Maybe some day the POSs that caused me to feel that terror will be held accountable ... and hopefully some day, those who did it to SG will be too.
 
... that she could get in a warm car with a buddy and go home, concerns me ...

Okay ... i think you mean MP could have found her and taken her home with him?

Thinking back to seaslug's pics of the house on Anchor Way and the adjacent trail that leads off into the marsh. My old post referencing a link provided by grumpy would seem to indicate that SG was last seen further south on Anchor Way ... it's not clear who saw her there, or if that was maybe where her jacket was found:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6421616&postcount=212"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NY-LI 10 bodies found on Beach-Poss. SrlKlr-12/10-4 id'd; more found 3/11 #8[/ame]
 
Okay ... i think you mean MP could have found her and taken her home with him?

Thinking back to seaslug's pics of the house on Anchor Way and the adjacent trail that leads off into the marsh. My old post referencing a link provided by grumpy would seem to indicate that SG was last seen further south on Anchor Way ... it's not clear who saw her there, or if that was maybe where her jacket was found:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NY-LI 10 bodies found on Beach-Poss. SrlKlr-12/10-4 id'd; more found 3/11 #8

According to Flukeyou, there is a resident there named "Barbara B." who has made it known in the neighborhood that she called 911 too and she was the last one to see her alive.
 
Here is the info I mentioned...


Victim - Melissa Barthelemy post #16
Views: 3,138 Posted By bodhi93
Thanks Shadow. Thought everyone could see the...

Thanks Shadow. Thought everyone could see the video.

Typed up the mothers quote:

She said, "Yes the coroners office called my phone and they told me that they found another part of my...

According to Flukeyou, there is a resident there named "Barbara B." who has made it known in the neighborhood that she called 911 too and she was the last one to see her alive.

I thought Gus Colletti and Mrs Canning were the only 2 people who called 911. Only one of those people lived on Anchor Way, and Mrs Canning offered to call 911 and Shannon ran off, and they saw her footprints in the sand. I thought the Cannings were the last to see Shannon. Is her first name Barbara?
 
I thought Gus Colletti and Mrs Canning were the only 2 people who called 911. Only one of those people lived on Anchor Way, and Mrs Canning offered to call 911 and Shannon ran off, and they saw her footprints in the sand. I thought the Cannings were the last to see Shannon. Is her first name Barbara?

Nope. It was in the papers that there were at least four 911 calls. I will find the link but we had it posted here back in the Spring.
 
This chart shows a dip in temperature and an increase in wind speed from 5-6 AM in Islip.
http://www.wunderground.com/history...Hauppauge&req_state=NY&req_statename=New+York

This shows average surface water temperatures at approx. 8 degrees Celsius (49 degrees Farenheit). I assume that the tidal marsh is somewhat close in temperature.
http://www.surf-forecast.com/breaks/Robert-Moses-State-Park/seatemp

This chart for Fire Island shows sunrise at 5:48 AM.
www.nps.gov/fiis/planyourvisit/upload/?2010_?TideTables.pdf

We know Shannan was known for discontinuing her medication. I think this may be the cause of her intense fear of death and flight that night:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroleptics
"The psychological withdrawal symptoms can include psychosis, and can be mistaken for a relapse of the underlying disorder."

"Withdrawal-related psychosis from antipsychotics is called "supersensitivity psychosis", and is attributed to increased number and sensitivity of brain dopamine receptors, due to blockade of dopaminergic receptors by the antipsychotics, which often leads to exacerbated symptoms in the absence of neuroleptic medication."

"These adverse effects are more likely during rapid changes between antipsychotic agents, so making a gradual change between antipsychotics minimises these withdrawal effects."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia

"Paradoxical undressing

Twenty to fifty percent of hypothermia deaths are associated with paradoxical undressing. This typically occurs during moderate to severe hypothermia, as the person becomes disoriented, confused, and combative. They may begin discarding their clothing, which, in turn, increases the rate of heat loss.[21][22]

Rescuers who are trained in mountain survival techniques are taught to expect this; however, some may assume incorrectly that urban victims of hypothermia have been subjected to a sexual assault.[23]

One explanation for the effect is a cold-induced malfunction of the hypothalamus, the part of the brain that regulates body temperature. Another explanation is that the muscles contracting peripheral blood vessels become exhausted (known as a loss of vasomotor tone) and relax, leading to a sudden surge of blood (and heat) to the extremities, fooling the person into feeling overheated.[23]

Terminal burrowing

An apparent self-protective behaviour known as terminal burrowing, or hide-and-die syndrome[24], occurs in the final stages of hypothermia. The afflicted will enter small, enclosed spaces, such as underneath beds or behind wardrobes. It is often associated with paradoxical undressing.[25]"

"Heat is lost more quickly in water[18] than on land. Water temperatures that would be quite reasonable as outdoor air temperatures can lead to hypothermia. A water temperature of 10 °C (50 °F) often leads to death in one hour, and water temperatures hovering at freezing can lead to death in as little as 15 minutes."



http://www.findshannangilbert.com/inside-the-investigation-part-1/
Last call to 911 ended 23 minutes after 4:51 (so 5:14 AM).



Based on my own personal experience, you can get lost in the woods in the dark even with a flashlight literally inside of 45 seconds after walking off the trail. You get disoriented very quickly and you need to repress your own panic. If Shannan ran into that tidal marsh, and she got wet, and she got lost, I guarantee she would be in a total panic. If she was wading through 49 degree water, she wouldn't have very long to live, especially if the wind picked up while the air temperature dropped.

She'd probably be close to death before sunrise. If she went into "terminal burrowing" inside that marsh, she probably covered herself entirely with reeds and muck. Finding her might be impossible even if a searcher were staring right at her. It will probably take 2 months of intense searching. I would comb over the area close to where they found the jeans multiple times.
 
Thanks Seaslug, that's the way I remember it, that one of the callers was never named. By now we have so much information it is quite a chore to comb through it all to find sources.

Also I do not think it was ever said that Melissa was dismembered. They just missed a bone and found it later and put it in a box and gave it to her mother with an American flag.
 
Very Interesting article about recent 911 tips on the case;

http://www.longislandpress.com/2011/12/08/red-herrings-among-tips-in-serial-killer-case/

More bizarre was the April 26 discovery of a plastic bag full of decapitated birds found in the area...

A seemingly promising lead came on Sept. 10—two weeks after Tropical Storm Irene washed away an estimated 120,000 cubic yards of sand from the beach—when a 26-year-old West Islip woman jogging along the shoreline reported finding what appeared to be a human femur in Gilgo Beach. A K-9 officer and his dog were called in but could not find the possible remains after the tipster lost it in the sand
 
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