NY-LI 10 bodies found on Beach-Poss. SrlKlr-12/10-4 id'd; more found 3/11 #12

[scandi]

the only problem that i have with the theory is that shannan's behavior to me didn't seem all that rational. she ran away from help, from the neighbor who was already calling the cops. she could have hidden inside his house, but she took off running to the marshes for some unknown reason. and if the serial killer was cph, why would he have risked following her to the marsh area when he knew that the police were already on their way. he had a prosthetic leg so that would have been difficult for him to hide her body in the marsh without getting noticed, especially since it was so close to daylight already. imo, that doesn't seem to fit in the pattern of the lisk, who based on the criminal profile, was meticulous in the way he planned his murders and who went to great effort to conceal his identity and his victims identities. for him to dump the body directly behind his house and then call her family to dissuade them from searching for her doesn't make sense to me. why didn't he move her body to ocean parkway with the other victims? after all, he placed two of his latest victims, who went missing months after shannan's disappearance, in ocean parkway. another thing is that melissa's killer directly made sure to inform the victim's family that he killed her, he could have just as easily dissuaded them from searching for her as well but he didn't. in fact, he seemed to enjoy victimizing his victim's family, rather than assuaging them that she was safe and well so they wouldn't search for her. if CPH hadn't called MG from his phone and gave her his details, i bet no one would have even thought to link him to shannan's disappearance. i just can't see the LISK doing such a thing unless he wanted to get caught.

Hi Rosemary, Re: . . . if the serial killer was cph, why would he have risked following her to the marsh area when he knew that the police were already on their way?.

Being local he would know it would take time for LE to get there. I remember reading a long comment at the beginning of the case where for Oak Beach there are not local cops on duty, but rather LE are dispatched from another group of officers. That takes longer for them to get there, as there is the time for them to assemble when called and then the drive time - 20 min or so as I remember.

I WISH I had saved that comment! This is only from memory. Hopefully a local here can correct anything I said that is not correct.

 

[rosemary]

I forgot to add the most important thing I wanted to say in my last post about the animals;

Just keep this in mind; there were ten other victims found just a few miles away (seven of which were complete, intact bodies) and in not one of those ten instances have we heard of animal disturbances being a factor.

Think about it.

This Asian man was estimated to had been killed and dumped on that island ten to fifteen years ago and his skeleton was still fully clothed despite all of so-called wildlife and over a decade worth of the nastiest Noreaster storms, flooding & beach erosion that Jones Island has ever experienced.

Let's also not forget the Jane Doe and her daughter. Both of their skeletal remains were still wearing their matching jewelry and the baby was still wrapped in a blanket.

How is it that the so-called wildlife can magically target the belongings of SG but completely ignore the clothing, blanket & jewelry of other victims?

Don't buy that story for one moment (because it's nothing more than a made-up story from someone who probably couldn't name more than three different species of wildlife).

What's next?

Are they going to tell us that it was a pack of wild dogs, a pride of alley cats or a school of flesh-eating walking snakehead fish?

don't forget that a lot of the victims were wrapped in burlap or plastic bags. that would have made it harder for the wildlife to rip apart their clothes and remains. plus, consider that different conditions, the marsh and the area where a lot of the bodies were found, can also be a factor that can affect the state of the bodies. i'm open to the possibility that shannan was killed by the lisk, but there are quite a few factors that kinda make me doubt it. for one, her behavior that night, where she seemed to be acting irrationally. two, her belongings and possibly her body are in the marsh, unlike the other victims. the latest two victims of the lisk disappeared after shannan went missing, yet he still decided to dump their bodies along ocean parkway. why didn't he decide to dump their bodies with shannan in the marsh? three, if cph was the serial killer, i don't think he would ever have called his victim's family on his phone and gave them his details, coz that would bring unwanted attention to himself. he wasn't even linked to Shannan till after he made his phone call to her mother.

 

[rosemary]

Hi Rosemary, Re: . . . if the serial killer was cph, why would he have risked following her to the marsh area when he knew that the police were already on their way?.

Being local he would know it would take time for LE to get there. I remember reading a long comment at the beginning of the case where for Oak Beach there are not local cops on duty, but rather LE are dispatched from another group of officers. That takes longer for them to get there, as there is the time for them to assemble when called and then the drive time - 20 min or so as I remember.

I WISH I had saved that comment! This is only from memory. Hopefully a local here can correct anything I said that is not correct.

but wasn't the water in the marsh quite deep around the time of Shannan's disappearance? how was he able to move so efficiently and quickly that he wasn't detected? he may have been familiar with the place, but he also had a prosthetic leg which would have made it even more harder for him to wade through swamp like or even lake like conditions (flood) just to kill and hide her body there. the police, who were wading in knee deep water, were struggling just to walk around the area, so i can imagine it would have been twice as difficult for someone like cph, with his pronounced limp, to do so.

 

[nugzter]

Just keep this in mind; there were ten other victims found just a few miles away (seven of which were complete, intact bodies) and in not one of those ten instances have we heard of animal disturbances being a factor.

There is an article posted here a while back with an interview with one of the victims mothers. I believe it was MW. She talked about how LE found more of her remains at a near by location from where the rest of her remains were found. So they were not all intact. I have never read that LE released that all or even some of the remains were intact. If you have that, I want that link. That would fit to a theory I have about the use of burlap. Wrapped or bag.
I will look for that interview in some older posts.

 

[rosemary]

Yes they do keep cats for pets but there is such an abundance of marine life in the area to occupy their interests and appetites. Also household pets learn very quickly that they are not welcome visitors in the marsh because it is a nesting area. The herring gulls in particular will defend their turf with a vengeance.

but there was an article i read that feral cats were becoming a problem in jones beach island and in other parts, because they were threatening the bird population in the island. plus, it doesn't even have to be just cats or raccoons that could have also helped to rip the jeans apart, even birds of prey could have easily done so as well. btw, i don't think all the lisk victims remains were all in perfect condition. i think i read somewhere that some of the remains found were only partial remains, so that could explain why some of the bodies haven't been identified yet.

 

[Clem Snide]

I forgot to add the most important thing I wanted to say in my last post about the animals;

Just keep this in mind; there were ten other victims found just a few miles away (seven of which were complete, intact bodies) and in not one of those ten instances have we heard of animal disturbances being a factor.

Think about it.

This Asian man was estimated to had been killed and dumped on that island ten to fifteen years ago and his skeleton was still fully clothed despite all of so-called wildlife and over a decade worth of the nastiest Noreaster storms, flooding & beach erosion that Jones Island has ever experienced.

Let's also not forget the Jane Doe and her daughter. Both of their skeletal remains were still wearing their matching jewelry and the baby was still wrapped in a blanket.

How is it that the so-called wildlife can magically target the belongings of SG but completely ignore the clothing, blanket & jewelry of other victims?

Don't buy that story for one moment (because it's nothing more than a made-up story from someone who probably couldn't name more than three different species of wildlife).

What's next?

Are they going to tell us that it was a pack of wild dogs, a pride of alley cats or a school of flesh-eating walking snakehead fish?

Valid point about the other bodies.

But I think it's a little early in the investigation to rule out walking snakehead fish, don't you? Lol

 

[rosemary]

a few of the bodies they found were partial remains, including the the female who was related to the toddler.

The blanketed body of the youngest victim, a girl no older than 32 months, has been connected to another of the victims: a woman whose partial remains were found seven miles to the west near Ocean Parkway on April 11, Suffolk County police officials said Tuesday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/21/n...ught-in-string-of-murders-on-long-island.html

Investigators trying to solve the deaths of 10 people dumped in the Gilgo Beach area face a big hurdle in putting names to the five unidentified sets of remains, law enforcement and forensic experts said Tuesday.
The bones were dumped on a windswept barrier beach, in some cases years ago, and exposed to elements that degrade DNA -- salt air, ultraviolet light, heat and humidity. Some of the remains, such as those found in Nassau, are merely partial skeletons -- a skull, legs and other bones, sources have said -- that provide few clues to identity other than whatever DNA can be extracted.

http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/experts-big-hurdles-to-id-gilgo-victims-1.2868783

 

[nugzter]

Here is the info I mentioned...


Victim - Melissa Barthelemy post #16
Views: 3,138 Posted By bodhi93
Thanks Shadow. Thought everyone could see the...

Thanks Shadow. Thought everyone could see the video.

Typed up the mothers quote:

She said, "Yes the coroners office called my phone and they told me that they found another part of my...

 

[truthspider]

Not to mention that SG did not go quietly into the night. Her disappearance was different in that she was on the phone to LE, whereas none of the other girls had that opportunity. After the initial attendance by LE on May 1, her case probably got relegated to "just another missing prostitute". The family receiving a phone call from a respected member of the community, basically assuring them that SG was alive, would help allleviate the family's concern so that they too were not as active in their search for their missing loved one. Possibly just another form of power ... let's control how the family views this situation?

"dominate, manipulate, and control", the MO of all serial killers.

 

[minazoe]

I can see birds picking at materials for nesting...but there is only one other thing that feral cats, red foxes and raccoons are interested in and that is FOOD....not lip gloss or shoes or purses...unless maybe they like to get dressed up at night and wear designer jeans,smoke cigarettes and have big parties.

maybe the deer were fighting over the jeans and that's how they got ripped...

I hear Gulls adore lip gloss.

seriously, it looks like a place you could easily end up dead in in the dark.

however...I don't even trust that she went in there...I hear she was a very bright girl,
and a streetwise girl who didn't like the water...in the night with all the scratchy plants and bugs why would she run in there?...even to hide...surely it was dark and wet and too tangley to even walk in..

she would have to have been on LSD, seriously out of reality.

what was in the purse?

where is her money? are her drugs there?

if not...where are they?

 

[minazoe]

but yeah okay..she probably drowned....

or the big genius serial killer really f'd up..and the cops know who he is, and all that control stuff is coming to an end.

 

[Seaslug44]

i'm open to the possibility that shannan was killed by the lisk, but there are quite a few factors that kinda make me doubt it. for one, her behavior that night, where she seemed to be acting irrationally. two, her belongings and possibly her body are in the marsh, unlike the other victims. the latest two victims of the lisk disappeared after shannan went missing, yet he still decided to dump their bodies along ocean parkway. why didn't he decide to dump their bodies with shannan in the marsh? three, if cph was the serial killer, i don't think he would ever have called his victim's family on his phone and gave them his details, coz that would bring unwanted attention to himself. he wasn't even linked to Shannan till after he made his phone call to her mother.

Regarding the three reasons why you doubt that SG was killed by the LISK;

1. Everyone keeps stating that SG acted irrattionally. Well let's see... she was hysterical because she thought that she was going to be killed and this week's discovery of her belongings pretty much confirms that her hunch was correct. It sounds to me like SG was the only person thinking rationally on the evening of May 1st.
2. The general consensus here among those of us who have been following the case is that they are not going to find SG burried in the marshlands at Oak Beach. Many people (including myself) belieive that there is a better chance of finding her remains in the pine barrens out in Manorville then within Oak Beach. There is also the possiblilty that her remains are somewhere along Ocean Parkway (either moved there after last year's search or in a place that was overlooked). Since we now know that Nassau County searched their portion of the parkway using bomb sniffing dogs, it is very possible that she is right there along Ocean Parkway.
3. I will leave it to Truthspider to better explain why it's possible that CPH made those phone calls and still can be the LISK. The theory he has cannot be proved to be false at this point in time (so it is just as valid as every other theory, if not more so considering the chain of events).

 

[Seaslug44]

but there was an article i read that feral cats were becoming a problem in jones beach island and in other parts, because they were threatening the bird population in the island. plus, it doesn't even have to be just cats or raccoons that could have also helped to rip the jeans apart, even birds of prey could have easily done so as well. btw, i don't think all the lisk victims remains were all in perfect condition. i think i read somewhere that some of the remains found were only partial remains, so that could explain why some of the bodies haven't been identified yet.

So then your theory has two problems;

First, we are being told that SG probably drowned in deep water and her remains have never been discovered (not by person or by the FBI helicopter photos) because it was underwater the entire time. If that is the case, then are we to accept that the birds, raccoons and cats were able to see her pants underwater and dive down there to bring them back up to the surface?

Second, you do realize that this is Jones Island we are speaking about? It's the same island that contains Jones Beach State Park, Captree, Cedar, Cedar Overlook, Gilgo and Tobay beaches. Statistically, these beaches have received over a half billion visitors in the past 75 years. The primary reason for visiting- lying down on the sand in the sun. My point is that if SG's body was not submerged in water but actually lying out in the open, it's not like it would have been the first time those birds of prey and problematic feral cats (never saw one of those except maybe one or two near the dumpsters at the park) would have come across a woman's body lying down in the sun. You'd think that if wildlife ripping clothing off of people were a problem in the area, one of the half billion visitors would have reporting it. Almost every one of those half billion visitors has taken their shoes off and put them down so they could walk in the sand yet we never hear stories about the wildlife walking away with footwear.

Sorry, still not buying it. Never saw a raccoon, bird of prey or a wild house cat ever show any interest in playing with someone's pocketbook, shoes or jeans. And when there is all that sushi available for them to forage upon, trust me, they would not take time out from eating to go play with a person's belongings.

 

[Seaslug44]

I can see birds picking at materials for nesting...but there is only one other thing that feral cats, red foxes and raccoons are interested in and that is FOOD....not lip gloss or shoes or purses...unless maybe they like to get dressed up at night and wear designer jeans,smoke cigarettes and have big parties.

maybe the deer were fighting over the jeans and that's how they got ripped...

I hear Gulls adore lip gloss.

seriously, it looks like a place you could easily end up dead in in the dark.

however...I don't even trust that she went in there...I hear she was a very bright girl,
and a streetwise girl who didn't like the water...in the night with all the scratchy plants and bugs why would she run in there?...even to hide...surely it was dark and wet and too tangley to even walk in..

she would have to have been on LSD, seriously out of reality.

what was in the purse?

where is her money? are her drugs there?

if not...where are they?

You make some very valid points. It's a very crowded island with lots of human traffic. The wildlife is not interested in playing when there is so much food around.

And you are so right about SG.

 

[Seaslug44]

based on the pics i've seen in this site, i think the type of plant we are looking at is called smooth cordgrass:

Actually, what you posted is what is found on the North side of the Island and throughout much of the bay. The area being searched within Oak Beach is landlocked and has more of the characteristics of a brackish water or even a freshwater wetland area. The most common plant is the thick and tall Common Reed or Stout Grass. Once it is aged an entire season, it hardens and becomes extremely sharp.

You can appreciate how dense and tall this grass is by viewing these police officers searching there yesteday;

 

[snapdragon2]

Ed Mangano’s War With Nassau County Police

So we know there are not any bombs at Tobay & Jones Beaches. But knowing that two sets of remains were found in those areas, I guess we will never know if Nassau County blew the opportunity to uncover more.

This is disgraceful!

That is absolutely unbelievable. How can they possibly think that's okay?!

 

[rosemary]

Regarding the three reasons why you doubt that SG was killed by the LISK;

1. Everyone keeps stating that SG acted irrattionally. Well let's see... she was hysterical because she thought that she was going to be killed and this week's discovery of her belongings pretty much confirms that her hunch was correct. It sounds to me like SG was the only person thinking rationally on the evening of May 1st.
2. The general consensus here among those of us who have been following the case is that they are not going to find SG burried in the marshlands at Oak Beach. Many people (including myself) belieive that there is a better chance of finding her remains in the pine barrens out in Manorville then within Oak Beach. There is also the possiblilty that her remains are somewhere along Ocean Parkway (either moved there after last year's search or in a place that was overlooked). Since we now know that Nassau County searched their portion of the parkway using bomb sniffing dogs, it is very possible that she is right there along Ocean Parkway.
3. I will leave it to Truthspider to better explain why it's possible that CPH made those phone calls and still can be the LISK. The theory he has cannot be proved to be false at this point in time (so it is just as valid as every other theory, if not more so considering the chain of events).

by acting irrationally, i meant running away from help. she asked a neighbor to call the cops and instead of waiting, hiding, inside the neighbor's house, she then ran off into the dark to the marshes. why would she make it easier for the killer to capture her again and kill her if she was acting rationally? you said she was hysterical, so that only adds to my suspicion that she was not sound of mind. there have been incidents of victims who have escaped or tried to escape from their would be murderers, and none that i know of ever tried to run away from help and placed themselves back within the clutches of their killer. so far, we don't know what exactly happened to shannan, and imo the police know far more than us about the circumstances of her disappearance and death. if shannan's remains are ever found in ocean parkway, and if ever they find her body and it shows signs of homicidal death, i have no problem changing my mind. so far, i don't see anything wrong with the police view of accidental death given that there are also quite a few big differences between shannan's case and the other victims found in ocean parkway.

 

[rosemary]

You make some very valid points. It's a very crowded island with lots of human traffic. The wildlife is not interested in playing when there is so much food around.

And you are so right about SG.

so how do you explain the dead animal remains found in the marshes that were initially thought to be Shannan's remains? the killer placed them there as well?

 

[rosemary]

So then your theory has two problems;

First, we are being told that SG probably drowned in deep water and her remains have never been discovered (not by person or by the FBI helicopter photos) because it was underwater the entire time. If that is the case, then are we to accept that the birds, raccoons and cats were able to see her pants underwater and dive down there to bring them back up to the surface?

Second, you do realize that this is Jones Island we are speaking about? It's the same island that contains Jones Beach State Park, Captree, Cedar, Cedar Overlook, Gilgo and Tobay beaches. Statistically, these beaches have received over a half billion visitors in the past 75 years. The primary reason for visiting- lying down on the sand in the sun. My point is that if SG's body was not submerged in water but actually lying out in the open, it's not like it would have been the first time those birds of prey and problematic feral cats (never saw one of those except maybe one or two near the dumpsters at the park) would have come across a woman's body lying down in the sun. You'd think that if wildlife ripping clothing off of people were a problem in the area, one of the half billion visitors would have reporting it. Almost every one of those half billion visitors has taken their shoes off and put them down so they could walk in the sand yet we never hear stories about the wildlife walking away with footwear.

Sorry, still not buying it. Never saw a raccoon, bird of prey or a wild house cat ever show any interest in playing with someone's pocketbook, shoes or jeans. And when there is all that sushi available for them to forage upon, trust me, they would not take time out from eating to go play with a person's belongings.

fair enough, but going by your theory, how did the other bodies remain out in the open so long, and no one suspected they were there till a police officer stumbled on them? isn't it possible that Shannan's body could have been overlooked as well? also, another thing, you are assuming that raccoons, birds, and cats wouldn't be interested in human belongings but that is incorrect:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...coons scavengers body remains clothes&f=false

 

[rosemary]

I can see birds picking at materials for nesting...but there is only one other thing that feral cats, red foxes and raccoons are interested in and that is FOOD....not lip gloss or shoes or purses...unless maybe they like to get dressed up at night and wear designer jeans,smoke cigarettes and have big parties.

maybe the deer were fighting over the jeans and that's how they got ripped...

I hear Gulls adore lip gloss.

seriously, it looks like a place you could easily end up dead in in the dark.

however...I don't even trust that she went in there...I hear she was a very bright girl,
and a streetwise girl who didn't like the water...in the night with all the scratchy plants and bugs why would she run in there?...even to hide...surely it was dark and wet and too tangley to even walk in..

she would have to have been on LSD, seriously out of reality.

what was in the purse?

where is her money? are her drugs there?

if not...where are they?

i don't think it's correct to assume that wildlife would never be interested in picking apart human remains and belongings:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...coons scavengers body remains clothes&f=false

how do we know that animals never go into that particular marsh? after all, the police did find animal remains in their search, and some were even mistake for human remains.

imo, being bright and intelligent has nothing to do with why Shannan might have run off into the marshes and drowned. it was reported that she apparently suffered from bipolar disorder, and was known to go off her meds, so maybe she was manic that night and was not in the right state of mind to think rationally and clearly. that's evidenced when she ran off after she asked the neighbor for help and he was already calling the cops. plus, the sun hadn't risen yet, so it would have been dark and hard for her to see where she was going .and yes, shannan may have been under the influence of drugs that night, which would explain why she ran off into the darkness rather than choosing to stay and wait for the police to arrive.