This information is all so helpful. I had assumed that Craigslist clients would be wealthier than what you state here, but this makes sense. Do you know if the johns tended to be younger men or were they from all age groups?
NY-Long Island-Four bodies found on Beach-Possible Serial Killer-Dec 2010 #1
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This information is all so helpful. I had assumed that Craigslist clients would be wealthier than what you state here, but this makes sense. Do you know if the johns tended to be younger men or were they from all age groups?
minazoe
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I feel this is a guy who knows his way around the area and feels comfortable, he knows where and when to approach his hiding spots. He loves it that his spot is so open and people can drive or walk by his secret everyday. He can also drive by and it feels like a visit to his place.
My guess is that the girl whose family received calls did something to anger the guy.
This guy likes the little ones because they are less likely to land a punch or leave marks on him... a bigger girl might feel she can fight.
I wonder where the closest parking area is, or if there is an area where othe cars might be parked so you could park less noticably and walk the beach.
I think the girls were dumped and the guy went back to his home in the suburbs, he may be doing these "summer crimes" when his wife or girlfriend leaves on her girls vaccation, or visit to mom etc...
My guess is that the girl whose family received calls did something to anger the guy.
This guy likes the little ones because they are less likely to land a punch or leave marks on him... a bigger girl might feel she can fight.
I wonder where the closest parking area is, or if there is an area where othe cars might be parked so you could park less noticably and walk the beach.
I think the girls were dumped and the guy went back to his home in the suburbs, he may be doing these "summer crimes" when his wife or girlfriend leaves on her girls vaccation, or visit to mom etc...
We know quite a bit about all four women but Megan Waterman is the only victim that we know much about her final night. It has been reported that she left Maine with Akeem Cruz (presumably her boyfriend/pimp) by bus (so she didn't have her own car). Apparently she checked into the hotel (Holiday Inn Express, Hauppauge) by herself. Akeem was not seen there. She left once early in the evening and returned an hour or so later. She left again around midnight and never seen again. (Were Cab drivers contacted?) Likley, she was picked up by the perp.
It would be interesting to know what Akeem told police. He should have known quite a bit. Hopefully he was willing to "talk". He may not have been around Hauppauge that night but he must have known what "business" had been set up for the weekend. Had she scheduled a number of clients in advance? If so, did he keep their names and phone numbers and whatever? There must have been some arrangement with the "fatal John". We don't know if there was any phone traffic from Megan's room. Probably the only records kept from either the hotel phone or Megan's cell would be toll calls. Since the local police were able to get the video from the hotel, they were probably on this pretty fast. I would think Megan's "business" records, whatever they might be, would be the best clues available. Did the local police investigating Megan's disappearance contact Craig's list? Were the items from her hotel room retained. A scrap of paper with a phone number would be very important. It appears that less is known about the other women. They were either not reported missing timely or their cases were not investigated.
There is a pattern that many serial killers of prostitutes are also "normal" Johns who have regular "business" with hookers that do not "go bad". I can think of a number of SK's who were well know by local hookers and considered to be "good customers"; only rarely would an encounter result in a death. I am wondering if, through Craig's list, regular Johns in Suffolk Co (who had no reported problems) have been checked out.
I suspect it is not a coincidence that 3 of the victims were very small and the four found on Gilgo Beach all went missing in the summer months. There are apparently 9 other New York women missing who "fit the profile". Is there another "dump site"? And, the strangest mystery of this case; what about Shannon Gilbert?
It would be interesting to know what Akeem told police. He should have known quite a bit. Hopefully he was willing to "talk". He may not have been around Hauppauge that night but he must have known what "business" had been set up for the weekend. Had she scheduled a number of clients in advance? If so, did he keep their names and phone numbers and whatever? There must have been some arrangement with the "fatal John". We don't know if there was any phone traffic from Megan's room. Probably the only records kept from either the hotel phone or Megan's cell would be toll calls. Since the local police were able to get the video from the hotel, they were probably on this pretty fast. I would think Megan's "business" records, whatever they might be, would be the best clues available. Did the local police investigating Megan's disappearance contact Craig's list? Were the items from her hotel room retained. A scrap of paper with a phone number would be very important. It appears that less is known about the other women. They were either not reported missing timely or their cases were not investigated.
There is a pattern that many serial killers of prostitutes are also "normal" Johns who have regular "business" with hookers that do not "go bad". I can think of a number of SK's who were well know by local hookers and considered to be "good customers"; only rarely would an encounter result in a death. I am wondering if, through Craig's list, regular Johns in Suffolk Co (who had no reported problems) have been checked out.
I suspect it is not a coincidence that 3 of the victims were very small and the four found on Gilgo Beach all went missing in the summer months. There are apparently 9 other New York women missing who "fit the profile". Is there another "dump site"? And, the strangest mystery of this case; what about Shannon Gilbert?
Missizzy, I greatly appreciate your expertise and information, even though it has been gained through such difficult circumstances. How I hope your daughter is rescued.
My experience is primarily with the Craigslist pages between Modesto, CA (to the south) and Seattle (to the north) and on the I-5 corridor. My focus was strongest on the Sacramento area which was quite the hotbed. The FBI agent told me that all classes of men use the services. Here's what I know to be true (however, it is just my observation):
Almost every ad included a photo of the woman
Some photos were professional, and marked as such, but the vast majority were taken by the woman herself in a hotel bathroom (from the appearance of the bathrooms, I would gauge the motels to be mid-to upper-range/motel suites) or on a bed in a motel room. Very few looked to be taken at a private home.
I've been told that the "amateurish" photo is done on purpose as the pimps want the johns to think that the women are independent. Rarely is a pimp's name in a tattoo shown in a photo. But almost all women are forced to get the tattoo so that the pimp can "claim" them.
Items on the bathroom counter signify what sorts of services are available. A container of vaseline is common if the woman's services include anal sex
Prices were outlined by the 15 minute increment and many women also provide "car dates"
Measurements and age were prominent
"Just starting out" or "just turned 18" typically means they are underaged
Women of absolutely every color, size, shape and age are available. I've seen numerous ads for women in their 50s and for women who are 9 months pregnant or lactating. There are many many typically attractive women but I was surprised by the number of women who were extremely unique--either pregnant, older, very obese, with unusually large breasts or bottom, thick and muscular thighs, or very boyish or young looking.
I was told that the pimps control the cell phones, cameras and laptops. They write the ads. A phone number was usually "coded" and written as "five-0-three-fourteen-1-1-3 hundred" so LE could not run a check on the phone numbers via a simple search of CL. Callers were warned that anyone with caller ID would not be answered. Callers were also warned that no profanity would be allowed during phone calls.
The same photos would show up under multiple names, which change as the women are moved around, usually every few days. The word "visiting" means that the group is just passing through and not local.
I was told that most women were kept in groups of 3-10 and managed by two to three men. One is the pimp and the others are the drivers. A woman never drives herself, she is driven to an outcall and taken to the door, where the john hands over the money. Almost always, the cost has increased by the time the woman arrives. The driver stays outside but will call or knock on the door when the time is up. At that point, extra services can be arranged. The money is never in the hand of the woman.
When the women are initially procured, their IDs and personal effects are taken away. Drinking and drug use is not allowed so there is no need of an ID. The pimp provides any medication he deems necessary. He also provides the condoms, sex toys and lingerie.
If a woman needs medical assistance, a "girlfriend" takes her. This woman is usually the pimp's girlfriend or a "retired" prostitute in good standing.
If LE show up, the men are always the women's boyfriends or "cousins". The women have lost or misplaced their IDs.
Women are procured by other women and lured into meeting the pimp. The woman will be lavished with attention for a short amount of time until she is introduced to the lifestyle. It is very much a form of grooming. Once a trick has been turned, the woman will be shamed into silence and told that she could be arrested or that her family wouldn't want her back. She will be reminded just how much money (manicures, pedicures, hair styling and wigs, clothing, perfume, etc) has been spent on her and that she needs to "pay" her way.
The vast majority of young women involved in this style of prostitution are required to turn 10-20 tricks per day
That's what I know. If anyone has a specific question, I'd be more than happy to try and answer.
Almost every ad included a photo of the woman
Some photos were professional, and marked as such, but the vast majority were taken by the woman herself in a hotel bathroom (from the appearance of the bathrooms, I would gauge the motels to be mid-to upper-range/motel suites) or on a bed in a motel room. Very few looked to be taken at a private home.
I've been told that the "amateurish" photo is done on purpose as the pimps want the johns to think that the women are independent. Rarely is a pimp's name in a tattoo shown in a photo. But almost all women are forced to get the tattoo so that the pimp can "claim" them.
Items on the bathroom counter signify what sorts of services are available. A container of vaseline is common if the woman's services include anal sex
Prices were outlined by the 15 minute increment and many women also provide "car dates"
Measurements and age were prominent
"Just starting out" or "just turned 18" typically means they are underaged
Women of absolutely every color, size, shape and age are available. I've seen numerous ads for women in their 50s and for women who are 9 months pregnant or lactating. There are many many typically attractive women but I was surprised by the number of women who were extremely unique--either pregnant, older, very obese, with unusually large breasts or bottom, thick and muscular thighs, or very boyish or young looking.
I was told that the pimps control the cell phones, cameras and laptops. They write the ads. A phone number was usually "coded" and written as "five-0-three-fourteen-1-1-3 hundred" so LE could not run a check on the phone numbers via a simple search of CL. Callers were warned that anyone with caller ID would not be answered. Callers were also warned that no profanity would be allowed during phone calls.
The same photos would show up under multiple names, which change as the women are moved around, usually every few days. The word "visiting" means that the group is just passing through and not local.
I was told that most women were kept in groups of 3-10 and managed by two to three men. One is the pimp and the others are the drivers. A woman never drives herself, she is driven to an outcall and taken to the door, where the john hands over the money. Almost always, the cost has increased by the time the woman arrives. The driver stays outside but will call or knock on the door when the time is up. At that point, extra services can be arranged. The money is never in the hand of the woman.
When the women are initially procured, their IDs and personal effects are taken away. Drinking and drug use is not allowed so there is no need of an ID. The pimp provides any medication he deems necessary. He also provides the condoms, sex toys and lingerie.
If a woman needs medical assistance, a "girlfriend" takes her. This woman is usually the pimp's girlfriend or a "retired" prostitute in good standing.
If LE show up, the men are always the women's boyfriends or "cousins". The women have lost or misplaced their IDs.
Women are procured by other women and lured into meeting the pimp. The woman will be lavished with attention for a short amount of time until she is introduced to the lifestyle. It is very much a form of grooming. Once a trick has been turned, the woman will be shamed into silence and told that she could be arrested or that her family wouldn't want her back. She will be reminded just how much money (manicures, pedicures, hair styling and wigs, clothing, perfume, etc) has been spent on her and that she needs to "pay" her way.
The vast majority of young women involved in this style of prostitution are required to turn 10-20 tricks per day
That's what I know. If anyone has a specific question, I'd be more than happy to try and answer.
I just checked the Sacramento Craigslist "Casual Encounters" page. I chose w4m and there are currently four pages of available women--approximately 300 posted in the last four days. Very few pics but the ones that are available are graphic. I see no more pricelists and far less locations. I also noted that many request an email back instead of a phone call. I believe that these changes have surely slowed things down a bit but most pimps have probably moved on to other sites.
minazoe
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From all age groups but mostly middle age to older guys. The women are usually in their 20s to mid 30s. Young men generally dont need to pay to meet woman that age (older guys do) and don't have the money anyway.
I would guess the perp is likely in his 40s or 50s.
If she was doing outcalls (and it sounds like she was from what you are saying) she would have used a taxi.
Many of those photos are actually of someone else, because if they showed the real girls, well, lets just say it wouldnt be good for business.
Again, most of that is not accurate. Measurements are frequently understated, and usually they are significantly older than what they claim in their adds.
You have to remember that the adds are the bait that lures their customers in, but the reality is something quite different. It is not a good idea to blindly believe what is in the adds, mostly it is misleading.
Considering that the average outcall is an hour, I highly doubt that. Incall dates are half hour or an hour mostly (sometimes longer for the higher end girls). There would be time inbetween for a shower and cleaning up (otherwise their clients would refuse to see them, lol), so I think even a girl doing a high throughput at most would be seeing not more than 10 a day. And that would be exceptional, these girls are competing with each other and dont have a line of clients outside their door. An average of 3-5 a day for a very active girl is more realistic. A mid to high end escort will seldom see more than 1-2 clients a day, and sometimes none.
Keep in mind that most of the statistics you hear about prostitution are for streetwalkers, and don't apply generally in the case of the craigslist girls or high end escorts
Reannan
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I am just lurking in this case, but completely committed to seeing justice. I just wanted to say Thank You to all of the posters that are sharing so much of their knowledge. I think it is horrible that these women live a life that is sad, lonely, and dangerous. They deserve more than what has happened.
Soulmagent
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I dunno I witnessed a group 6 girls with 3 guys working much like She described in her post. It was crazy to see. I have not even seen anything like it in the movies No lie.
They were from a different state and passing though the wafflehouse I worked at. They were very forword and they did pick up a few customers and worked out of the back of an SUV in the parking lot but mostly people drove up and met them. It was very clear what they were doing. Complete with taking photo's so in case there was doubt you could see when the back lit up from the flash. All this went on in a busy parking lot. I had at first thought they were selling drugs but drug is not what they were selling. These girls were not ugly . They were very nice clean looking girls dressed to grab attention.
Later the Pimp guy came in used the free wifi and had coffee. He had a bit harder look to him.
Also I met a girl who I later found out put ads up for herself online and she used her own picture, which is the only reason I know about what she does. She was brainwashed and m
1,000's of girls there are bound to be a ton of methods. The method I witnessed is exactly like what was discribed in Missizzy's post.
I do think it sounds like we would be looking for a guy who LIST HIMSELF as having a fetish for tiny woman maybe?
Those are streetwalkers though, not escorts.
Tugela--I am not in any way saying that "what you see is what you get". Having never used the services of the young women, I honestly don't know. I'm completely going off of my own observation, my numerous lengthy talks with the staff at the Polaris Project, my phone calls with a female FBI agent based in Sacramento and a number of deputies from the Sacramento area.
I have no doubt that many of the "professional" photos are taken from elsewhere. I've even seen this discussed on the review forums. However, before CL somewhat shut it down, I firmly believe that many of the women were truly who they said they were. The photos that I identified as my daughter were most definitely her. I would know. Many of the women were not what I would consider attractive or fit or lithe or nubile. They were women photographing themselves in motel bathrooms in their lingerie. And measurements and age are certainly "fluid" as they are for most women.
Concerning the number of tricks per day, I'm depending on what I've been told by the FBI and the Polaris Project. This was backed up by some heart-wrenching articles concerning human trafficking that I've posted before. They are probably still available in our Human Trafficking thread.
I don't have any desire to argue or debate. I'm simply stating what I've learned and observed in the last three years while looking for our daughter. Totally my opinion, only. As I said, the situation could be far different on the east coast. You might have far more up-to-date information on that situation than I do.
I have no doubt that many of the "professional" photos are taken from elsewhere. I've even seen this discussed on the review forums. However, before CL somewhat shut it down, I firmly believe that many of the women were truly who they said they were. The photos that I identified as my daughter were most definitely her. I would know. Many of the women were not what I would consider attractive or fit or lithe or nubile. They were women photographing themselves in motel bathrooms in their lingerie. And measurements and age are certainly "fluid" as they are for most women.
Concerning the number of tricks per day, I'm depending on what I've been told by the FBI and the Polaris Project. This was backed up by some heart-wrenching articles concerning human trafficking that I've posted before. They are probably still available in our Human Trafficking thread.
I don't have any desire to argue or debate. I'm simply stating what I've learned and observed in the last three years while looking for our daughter. Totally my opinion, only. As I said, the situation could be far different on the east coast. You might have far more up-to-date information on that situation than I do.
Soulmagent
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This guy was using the interenet to have guys met these girls in a specific location. These girls were not walking the street the old fashion way. They were slidding extra bussiness after they got there but they had their clients met them. The dates appeared to be set up ahead of time.
When you think about street walkers you dont think of them as industrialized. You think like , stop and get in the car type of thing.
I refuse to call one higher class then the other as that is nuts to me. I wouldnt call the victims escorts or street walkers, I think they fit more with the industrialized. IMO
Still I think the murderer is the one running the ad,and the girls are answering.
http://facecrooks.com/blog/internet-safety-a-privacy/item/1003-social-media-and-human-trafficking
".....Human traffickers easily find these vulnerable individuals because they prey on the victims’ low level of economic, psychological and educational well being. Some fall prey due to the promise of lucrative jobs to escape poverty. The lure of a better future in a foreign country can be an attractive enticement to the down trodden and disadvantaged.
A 20 year old woman from Guatemala became a prostitute because of a debt which jumped from $5,000 to $30,000. She was illegally smuggled the US, thinking that she would get a housekeeping job. She was forced to deliver 25 tricks per day for the next 9 months.
A developmentally disabled girl who had difficulty making friends was approached and befriended by another woman at Santa Rosa Junior College and later disappeared. She was forced into prostitution by her captors. The search for her ended 18 months later after her mother saw her being advertised on craiglist.com....."
more at link
(And no, I am not the mother mentioned above. I wish.....)
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=182763692569
"....The problem of human trafficking is much bigger than most people think. Sadly, not only is the problem growing all over the world, but most Americans would never guess that it is happening right here in the United States.
One million women and children are trafficked into sexual bondage each year...one million...that's two more slaves every minute. By the time you stop reading this paragraph someone else will be forced into slavery. In that bondage they may be forced to submit themselves to rape for profit up to twenty times a day. She gets none of the profit, just the pain...."
more at link (open to the public)
".....Human traffickers easily find these vulnerable individuals because they prey on the victims’ low level of economic, psychological and educational well being. Some fall prey due to the promise of lucrative jobs to escape poverty. The lure of a better future in a foreign country can be an attractive enticement to the down trodden and disadvantaged.
A 20 year old woman from Guatemala became a prostitute because of a debt which jumped from $5,000 to $30,000. She was illegally smuggled the US, thinking that she would get a housekeeping job. She was forced to deliver 25 tricks per day for the next 9 months.
A developmentally disabled girl who had difficulty making friends was approached and befriended by another woman at Santa Rosa Junior College and later disappeared. She was forced into prostitution by her captors. The search for her ended 18 months later after her mother saw her being advertised on craiglist.com....."
more at link
(And no, I am not the mother mentioned above. I wish.....)
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=182763692569
"....The problem of human trafficking is much bigger than most people think. Sadly, not only is the problem growing all over the world, but most Americans would never guess that it is happening right here in the United States.
One million women and children are trafficked into sexual bondage each year...one million...that's two more slaves every minute. By the time you stop reading this paragraph someone else will be forced into slavery. In that bondage they may be forced to submit themselves to rape for profit up to twenty times a day. She gets none of the profit, just the pain...."
more at link (open to the public)
Most of the women you guys are talking about though are streetwalkers or work in some backstreet brothel. I don't doubt that happens a lot in those sorts of situations, especially in the lower end of the industry, but it isnt what happens to most of the women who do actual escorting, which is what the victims in this case did. The mistake people make is assuming that the worst that happens on the streets happens everywhere because that is what they are told by those "fighting" the industry, but simply isn't true. The sex industry is not monolithic, sometimes the woman are coerced but more usually they get into it to get what they percieve to be a better life. That might be not having a boring minimum wage job, to support kids, to support some sort of habit, maybe some feel they need more Prada, some are students paying for school, some have mental health/abuse issues and see it as a perverse way of validating their life, some see it as a true calling, others just like sex and see it as convienent way to earn a living doing something they like, or any number of reasons. Whether you believe they are right or wrong, misguided, crazy or otherwise, most choose to do it. Along the way people might exploit them, and equally, they might exploit people.
Anyway, I don't think all this is particularly relevant in this case other than trying to determine what level these woman worked in the industry and how they were going about their business. Just looking at their pictures I would hazard a guess and say that they were doing this part time, probably with little or no security watching over them (ie no handlers) and probably doing outcalls mostly (likely to private residences). Which is why they would have been easy targets for him.
The first thing LE should be doing is tracking down whatever cell phone the girls were using to set up appointments, and if possible track down what numbers called them in the 48 hours before they dissappeared. One of those numbers will be the perp. The phone he is using is likely one of those pre-paid ones. The men who visit these woman often use these phones so their SOs don't find out and they can't be tracked, the perp doesn't want to be tracked down so he will probably be using one too. If they can put it all together and figure out which phone it is, they might be able to find out from phone records what other escorts the perp has seen but not killed. There is a chance that one of those ladies could remember something about him, allthough it would be a long shot as the girls would be trying to cover their tracks as well and could very well be hard to find.
Anyway, I don't think all this is particularly relevant in this case other than trying to determine what level these woman worked in the industry and how they were going about their business. Just looking at their pictures I would hazard a guess and say that they were doing this part time, probably with little or no security watching over them (ie no handlers) and probably doing outcalls mostly (likely to private residences). Which is why they would have been easy targets for him.
The first thing LE should be doing is tracking down whatever cell phone the girls were using to set up appointments, and if possible track down what numbers called them in the 48 hours before they dissappeared. One of those numbers will be the perp. The phone he is using is likely one of those pre-paid ones. The men who visit these woman often use these phones so their SOs don't find out and they can't be tracked, the perp doesn't want to be tracked down so he will probably be using one too. If they can put it all together and figure out which phone it is, they might be able to find out from phone records what other escorts the perp has seen but not killed. There is a chance that one of those ladies could remember something about him, allthough it would be a long shot as the girls would be trying to cover their tracks as well and could very well be hard to find.
Exactly, those were the equivalent of high track streetwalkers, just with a twist, they were doing car dates or similar from what you described. Escorts don't do that, its far too dangerous for them, either you show up at their apartment (incall) or they show up at yours (outcall).
And escorts are not all industrialized. Industrialized would be the massage parlors and brothels (those aren't escorts though). Semi industrialized would be the agency girls (allthough they are more like independent contractors). Then you get the girls who are independent and handle everything themselves.
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