NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #2

[Jmoose]

I am so glad that our VIs have joined us here-and I am hoping that one or the other will recall some tiny bit of information that, at the time in 1975, did not seem to be significant-something that can help to shed some light on what happened to Sylvia and why. I wish we had started this before Eva died in 2007

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Suggesting pregnancy as one of the possible motives for the argument that evening, but not necessarily any higher up there than another male, learning about an indiscretion on her part (or the perception that she had committed one), or discovering the details of her prior relationship (earlier termination).

IF a second pregnancy scenario>No, not from another. With BF/F.

In this case, I lean towards argument that evening was related to any of the above, rather than which movie to see, their future wedding plans, prior argument with her father, etc.

Thanks for clarifying.
BBM: Oh yeah. I completely agree with that! IMO, whatever it was had to be something that was going to alter the course of their lives together.

 

[epiphany]

I am so glad that our VIs have joined us here-and I am hoping that one or the other will recall some tiny bit of information that, at the time in 1975, did not seem to be significant-something that can help to shed some light on what happened to Sylvia and why. I wish we had started this before Eva died in 2007

You know something...I do have some faith that just one day we'll come on here, and there may be someone from Wagner or the old neighborhood that will offer some small piece of information. (No, haven't heard of anyone and probably know less than some.).

Stereotyping for a moment, but believe New Yorkers from this generation tend to step back from speaking out publicly in a situation such as this, or coming forward. Very cautious about something like this case. Mind your own business, etc. May just take some more time. She graduated and attended Wagner. Others are out there. We'll "meet" one or more some day.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Or...a second pregnancy that WAS his, that Sylvia again isn't ready for-abortion, for him, is out of the question, but not for her. I actually don't believe she was pregnant again at the time she disappeared, mostly because the two here who knew her best are discounting the possibility, although it isn't impossible. I wish we coud find out the name of the private investigator who was hired by the Lwowskis-not that this particular piece of info was part of what he discovered. I wonder if he actually was able to dig up anything, or if he just took their money?

BBM1: And are you seeing this as a motive for murder? It's hard for me to see him going from not condoning abortion to killing it himself (ETA: via the murder of the baby's mother), but I guess if it were a heat of the moment thing ... I also question whether a second abortion would have been okay with her, given the first one.

BBM2: Respectfully intended -- I see where you are coming from -- but I am not sure this is realistic. PIs are paid by the hour. We know from MMQC that he was following her. Perhaps he spent their money where they wanted him to spend it? You would have to have unlimited funds to look everywhere. In addition to not knowing what he found (is it possible his reports were oral?), we don't know what they invested or what his marching orders were.

 

[Jmoose]

You know I have some faith that just one day we'll come on here, and there may be someone from Wagner or the old neighborhood that will offer some small piece of information. (No, haven't heard of anyone and probably know less than some.).

Stereotyping for a moment, but believe New Yorkers from this generation tend to step back from speaking out publicly in a situation such as this, or coming forward. May just take some more time.

I hope you're right! I sort of have that faith, too, but am afraid it might be wishful thinking. There's got to be somebody else out there with some information that we don't have yet. I think if the word is spread in the right places that people are still looking for Sylvia, that information could surface. Fingers crossed!

 

[epiphany]

I hope you're right! I sort of have that faith, too, but am afraid it might be wishful thinking. There's got to be somebody else out there with some information that we don't have yet. I think if the word is spread in the right places that people are still looking for Sylvia, that information could surface. Fingers crossed!

Though we may have some different ideas and thoughts about what happened, many of us appear to share a dogged determination and persistence. Most of us seem to have that in common.

 

[MMQC]

I'm sure it did. Was he home the morning you and EL searched? Do you remember if he had to go to work? How did he behave? And when else did you see him?

Someone had to stay home JIC SL either called or showed. Remember no Cell Phones back then! He was very quiet. I saw him most times when I visited EL.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

MMQC: On the night SL disappeared, do you think it's possible that EL called your house while you and your father were out looking for SL? I'm guessing that the one place EL might have assumed SL ran off to was your house. Might your mother have told EL that you were out looking for SL? I am just wondering if this contributed to EL's alarm when the BF/F relayed the info about the fight.

 

[MMQC]

BBM: Is that because you dropped her off, but he went in with her?

Do you remember, from what she told you, whether he was older/younger/same age as SL?

Do you remember the color of the VW?

I only went with her to the PP clinic. Let's call him Red, took her to the procedure. Now remember we're talking 40 years ago. I'm lucky that I remember it was a VW. He I think was slightly older, can't remember 100%.

 

[MMQC]

That was in 72 right? Wonder if their relationship ended mutually because of this or was it because he was deported somewhere else because of the Navy? Wonder if he was a hometown boy or someone she met in college, maybe in music class?

Most definitely 73. I do believe he lived on the hill behind Wagner on the Victory Blvd. side.

 

[epiphany]

Did you and your Dad look for SL that evening while in one/same car?

 

[MMQC]

Abortion wasn't legal until after the decision in January of 1973...not that this is the most important piece of info...but the timing is very interesting. And she must have started dating BF/F immediately! I am assuming that this was a legal abortion, though

You are correct Jmoose.

 

[epiphany]

Most definitely 73. I do believe he lived on the hill behind Wagner on the Victory Blvd. side.

Did he have his own place (or lived w/his parents) before joining the Navy?

 

[rosemadderlake]

Agree with everything except BBM.

MO of Mother having a breakdown line is it was an expression he used to describe that his Mother was very distraught that SL went missing and her son was the last to see her. The equivalent of My mother's freaking out...crying, emotional, etc.

Posters of Italian heritage have attributed other behaviors as seemingly more common to same ancestry...why would this be any different.

--Ok, I've just made another espresso because I am Italian at heart!

Yes, "breakdown" is an expression for "freaking out" but it was said to MMQC almost as if he blamed her, or SL, or her family, along with expletives and "don't ever call here again" in the same conversation. What does that say?

The fact that the BF/F mentions his mother to MMQC tells me either he and his mom are very close, or perhaps he has built up a freak out scenario and is punctuating it with Italian drama. Why no concern? Why no 'have you heard any news about Sylvia?' 'My mother is having a breakdown over it, etc...'

I am sure all of the parents were distraught for a variety of reasons but somewhere in the recollections, there is the truth. For instance, I cannot imagine there was no communication between these families after she disappeared, but if there was not, what does that tell us?

 

[MMQC]

Yes you are right, not the most important part but if this happened in 1972 it was a definite reason (as well as other reasons) to keep it a secret since it was not legal yet. If her parents didn't know about this she had to probably rely on other people to help her find out which doctor's took the risk of doing this type of procedure. Maybe the Navy BF's family knew someone? Did she go in the front door as if it was just a regular doctor's office? Did she have any complications afterwards? Did she have any fears afterwards that she might have trouble getting pregnant in the future? MMQC, do you remember her talking about it afterwards?

Don't even go down that road. It was '73. No complications. The only fear was that she would never put herself in that situation again. I remember it vividly. My minds eye even sees her face telling me all about it. What I do remember that afterward when seeing babies or small children she would well up with tears. Remember, my own brother lived on the other side of the duplex her parents lived in. When my niece was born she really had a hard time of it. AND that was in July of '75.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

---Jumping off Epiphany's post-

MMQC: I think that we all withheld a lot from our parents back in the 70's but I keep coming back to EL's reaction that night, flying out of the house to go look for her daughter. Makes me think she knew something wasn't right, or that her daughter was distraught about something and was panicked for her.

IMO - this was no ordinary movie date and no ordinary argument. If this was a couple that argued, and made up, and professed their crazy love for each other - then a parent's reaction might different? Like, oh she'll go to so and so's house, call later, etc...

So I am guessing that it is very possible that EL knew that her daughter was distressed about something beforehand. Mothers have a way of knowing these things... Whatever the BF/F may have said about the argument perhaps it confirmed something she knew or suspected?

So, to echo jmoose and the others; the argument is a key piece to the puzzle. So, I guess I am wondering if you don't know directly what the argument was about, was there a rumor? I mean what did people think?

And, yes, BF/F's mother knew a lot more than anyone else. And, we only know that the BF/F said she was having a breakdown...

BBM1: So I am not sure, as a mother, that I would need anything more than that to make me panic. Knowing my daughter was stranded alone, in the mall area, in the dark, and emotionally upset, and that it was not looking like her BF/F was going to go after her, would probably make me bolt out the door. Does it matter what your daughter's made of? Might some daughters be able to handle themselves in this situation? Others not?

BBM2: But then, this point you make speaks to me, Rose. What if SL was anxious about breaking the engagement, and due to the publicness of that, talked about it with EL first? (Could tie into "no publicity.")

 

[MMQC]

MMQC: Do you recall why the BF/F was not at the pool party?

Really can't remember.

 

[epiphany]

Don't even go down that road. It was '73. No complications. The only fear was that she would never put herself in that situation again. I remember it vividly. My minds eye even sees her face telling me all about it. What I do remember that afterward when seeing babies or small children she would well up with tears. Remember, my own brother lived on the other side of the duplex her parents lived in. When my niece was born she really had a hard time of it. AND that was in July of '75.

Had she wanted to go carry through with the pregnancy, and then changed course?

 

[MMQC]

MMQC: On the night SL disappeared, do you think it's possible that EL called your house while you and your father were out looking for SL? I'm guessing that the one place EL might have assumed SL ran off to was your house. Might your mother have told EL that you were out looking for SL? I am just wondering if this contributed to EL's alarm when the BF/F relayed the info about the fight.

Don't think that was possible as my Mother was home and there were no calls or hang ups. I went over that with my mother many times. Even through the years. My own mom died in 2001 and never changed her number. She had the same number for 45 years so even into the years after SL was missing no calls. Same is said, although the years might have been different EL never changed the number or moved JIC SL ever came back.

As for my mother calling EL. No, as it was after the proper time to call anyone. After 9 PM to call someone in our house had to be for an emergency.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

--Ok, I've just made another espresso because I am Italian at heart!

Yes, "breakdown" is an expression for "freaking out" but it was said to MMQC almost as if he blamed her, or SL, or her family, along with expletives and "don't ever call here again" in the same conversation. What does that say?

The fact that the BF/F mentions his mother to MMQC tells me either he and his mom are very close, or perhaps he has built up a freak out scenario and is punctuating it with Italian drama. Why no concern? Why no 'have you heard any news about Sylvia?' 'My mother is having a breakdown over it, etc...'

I am sure all of the parents were distraught for a variety of reasons but somewhere in the recollections, there is the truth. For instance, I cannot imagine there was no communication between these families after she disappeared, but if there was not, what does that tell us?

Maybe "having a breakdown" meant "on my case." Maybe she was guilting him or trying to persuade him to do something about it, and the last thing he needed was someone to fortify that in her.