NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #2

[MMQC]

MMQC - on the night of the search, RE: Wagner College, did youor Eva suggest going onto Victory Blvd. behind Wagner College and pass by "Red"s house to see if anything looked suspicious?

I only knew of the general area, not the exact location. Doubt that EL even knew that detail.

 

[MMQC]

Had SL's Mother ever met Red? Or had she been aware they were once dating, or that SL had been interested in him at one time?

She knew they dated.

 

[MMQC]

MMQC: I am asking these things bc I'm trying to get a picture of SL's father. Toward that end, I have been looking back at earlier posts. The following are partial quotes from several of your posts. Maybe thinking about them together will jog something else from your memory. For instance, how did he interact with you?

(1) It seems that he sometimes drank too much.

T1, Post 966: "... there were alway a collection of them on the corner of the table by where he sat. I can see him sliding beer tabs off the table like you would sweep crumbs into your palm only palm was coffee can and then not look and swipe then, put can on fridge."​

T1, Post 1106: "As for SL and alcohol? Can't be sure. Father yes. Big factor."​

(2) Drinking sometimes caused him to inadvertently disrespect/embarrass SL:

T1, Post 917: "During engagement SL misplaced ring. We looked and looked everywhere. As was her custom while doing the dishes she took ring off. She placed it on the kitchen table. SL's father used to save the pull tabs from beer cans and put in coffee can on top of fridge. Scooped off pull tabs after drinking beer that particular night and scooped up ring with it as it was white gold and put unknowingly in coffee can. We never thought to look there. Just by accident when putting more pull tabs in can noticed something shiny....SL says "OMG, it's my engagement ring. I'm never taking it off again for anything."​

T1, Post 966 (again): "[SL] Never really spoke of any irritation toward father about ring. Now on the other hand about the incident at the party with him walking on his hands in front of classmates during party. VERY embarrassed. Argument insued and SL kicked father, very unlike her to do so."​

(3) Considering the acrobatics at the pool party and his car, he may have had a wild side or macho streak.

T1, Post 920: "[JL] Drove a BIG LONG car with tail fins."​

(4) Except for the two outbursts we know about, he was unimposing and seemed to keep his nose to the grindstone.

T1, Post 920 (again): "SL's father was a quiet man. Not a huggy kissy family, neither was mine. Worked hard for a living. .... Avg. height. Not a tyrant or rule by fist type. More talkative after swigging back a few cold ones."​

(5) He and SL had a compatible enough relationship to commute together to Wagner.

T1, Post 1066: "Yes, [they] commuted to and from home daily."​

(6) But sadly, when SL vanished, they may not have made up after the pool party fight, and he was understandably saddened by the loss.

T1, Post 973: "Summer for sure. Maybe EOA? Yes, not talking to father nor father to daughter. To my knowledge neither party apologised."​

T2, Post 776: "He was quite saddened. I believe it bothered him greatly."​

That about sums it all up. Although I do remember a gentle man that loved animals and his garden. Just like any of the guys back from WW2. Seemed to stay to himself but was an all around guy. Knew how to make things and fix things. Anything to do with anything. All around good guy. Loved his beer.

 

[MMQC]

OTOH, MMQC's neighbor ADA may have been the very reason MMQC was left out of it (not spoken to by NYPD), so to speak. May have been requested by her extremely strict parents.

I really don't think so. My parents were very strict, yes but they loved SL and would do anything to get to the bottom of the issue.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I only knew of the general area, not the exact location. Doubt that EL even knew that detail.

BBM: So then, since you only knew him through SL, and just caught that one glimpse of him in the parking lot the day you left her at PP, you must have seen him around the island in the years that followed, in order to guess where in general he might live?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

She knew they dated.

MMQC, I can't remember if this has been asked before, so if I'm on repeat, I apologize. Do you have any idea how long they "dated" before the abortion? I have been thinking of this relationship as something along the lines of a one night stand, since I think you said earlier that the later BF/F was SL's first serious relationship ("She did have a few BF's but none serious.") And because of your comments about sexual exploration in connection with this relationship ("Not to forget. It was a time for sexual exploration.") IOW, I wasn't seeing him as the kind of boy you bring home to mother

So in addition to wondering how long they dated, I'm curious about what they did together and how SL's mom came to know of him. Did EL meet "Red" when he picked SL up for these dates? What was it about the relationship that made you think of it as "not serious"? And do you think was it the abortion that separated them?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

That about sums it all up. Although I do remember a gentle man that loved animals and his garden. Just like any of the guys back from WW2. Seemed to stay to himself but was an all around guy. Knew how to make things and fix things. Anything to do with anything. All around good guy. Loved his beer.

BBM: Thanks so much for that, MMQC. I knew there was something I was missing. And the part about the garden and animals is important, as it seemed to have such an impact on SL, considering her love of animals and her biology major. Maybe the two of them were more alike than either one realized?

Post 287: “Through the years there were several types of birds in her room, gerbils and hamsters. Three dogs, a cat and various yard animals. Ducks, geese, and a turkey. Can't remember if there were any chickens. They all kept very busy with the animals and the vegetable garden.”
​

So really, we have a pretty good picture of JL before SL disappeared. I guess it's really just after the disappearance that the portrait seems less fleshed out.

 

[Dushi]

I really hope that this isn't what happened to the Lwowski family-maybe a bribe wasn't requested, but in the 70's, when there was so much crime, and the city was essentially bankrupt, perhaps what would have meant business to the police, was to have had somebody with some influence leaning on them continually. MMQC's neighbor had to request that they start investigating, after all. I wonder if more would have been done if the ADA had kept up the pressure.

I certainly hope that this isn't what happened also.
As I have followed along with this case from early on, one thing stands out for me.
Even though I can only imagine how heartbroken and scared her family and friends were, it seems to me that the way the family MAY have presented the case to LE could have had some influence on how much effort LE put into it.
IF what we have seen on the police report is the way it was presented to LE, it could easily be misinterpreted as a run away situation.

As you mentioned above, a time of high crime and little money
I get that fight with BF/F and broken glasses should have been red flags. I also get the mention of depressed and perhaps no publicity may have suggested to LE that those who loved her thought she had run off

All JMO

 

[rosemadderlake]

Don't even go down that road. It was '73. No complications. The only fear was that she would never put herself in that situation again. I remember it vividly. My minds eye even sees her face telling me all about it. What I do remember that afterward when seeing babies or small children she would well up with tears. Remember, my own brother lived on the other side of the duplex her parents lived in. When my niece was born she really had a hard time of it. AND that was in July of '75.

bbm: MMQC: your post really speaks to the heart wrenching aspect of this choice. A couple of thoughts, I wonder if Red felt the same? Perhaps she liked him but he had enlisted in the services when she got pregnant and it was a timing issue (child out of wedlock before finishing school issue) because he was going away? This young man was there with her during the procedure which says a lot to me about their feelings, and his taking responsibility in a very intimate loss.

-SL found a serious relationship with a traditional path, ring, engagement, in the BF/F soon after Red in the spring/summer of '73. -I wonder if she and her BF/F were on the same page about timing of marriage and children which she obviously wanted someday.

-From your description, this was very much on the surface of her emotions in the summer of '75. If she felt she couldn't tell her BF/F about her feelings, her loss, desires, and the BF/F was hesitant, career minded, or whatever, I wonder if SL or the BF/F were having second thoughts...

No date was set for the wedding, no church, no plan to live together for a while (test out the waters) as many young people were doing. So, what were their plans, I wonder? -Was she going to stay at home?

 

[rosemadderlake]

MMQC: Was Red at the pool party?

 

[Dushi]

MMQC: Was Red at the pool party?

Didn't she say the last time she saw him was the day of the termination?

page 31 post 774

 

[rosemadderlake]

Didn't she say the last time she saw him was the day of the termination?

page 31 post 774

Right you are, Dushi. Thanks. Sorry MMQC! -getting carried away with too many thoughts!

MMQC: Rephrasing - Did you hear that Red had stopped by the pool party (that afternoon, before you arrived, etc.) or hear that he was in contact with SL, at graduation, perhaps that summer, after time in the Navy?

 

[epiphany]

Don't even go down that road. It was '73. No complications. The only fear was that she would never put herself in that situation again. I remember it vividly. My minds eye even sees her face telling me all about it. What I do remember that afterward when seeing babies or small children she would well up with tears. Remember, my own brother lived on the other side of the duplex her parents lived in. When my niece was born she really had a hard time of it. AND that was in July of '75.

BBM

It seems that as late as July 1975, which is very close to the time of her disappearance, SL was still displaying some signs of melancholy despite her engagement and recent graduation from college.

Those around her would not understand why she was experiencing this reaction or how to interpret it (only those who had known about the termination). Combine this with anger towards her Father from the pool party incident, and a tendency, a habit (if you will) of leaving her home to go to your parents' home when issues arose and she needed to cool off: MO, was not a stretch to see how her disappearance was viewed by some.

 

[Dushi]

BBM

It seems that as late as July 1975, which is very close to the time of her disappearance, SL was still displaying some signs of melancholy despite her engagement and recent graduation from college.
Those around her would not necessarily understand why she was experiencing this reaction. Combine this with anger towards her Father from the pool party incident, and a tendency, a habit (if you will) of leaving her home to go to your parents' home when issues arose and she needed to cool off: MO, was not a stretch to see how her disappearance was viewed by some.

Good point
It is obvious from MMQC' post that Sylvia made a very hard decision and suffered from the results for a long time

 

[epiphany]

Course we all came of age with red-headed males...but how many were there attending WC (living in SI) who joined the Navy during the time period stated?

Ans: Less than 5 or less than 3. A very few.

 

[epiphany]

Anyone able to refresh my memory on month of 1975 pool party?

Also, how many days was SL away from her home after she went to stay at MMQC's parents' home (after the pool party incident)?

 

[Dushi]

Anyone able to refresh my memory on month of 1975 pool party?

Also, how many days was SL away from her home after she went to stay at MMQC's parents' home (after the pool party incident)?

MMQC says..........

As far as time line for party. I'm a bit fuzzy on that. Summer for sure. Maybe EOA? Yes, not talking to father nor father to daughter. To my knowledge neither party apologised.

 

[rosemadderlake]

BBM

It seems that as late as July 1975, which is very close to the time of her disappearance, SL was still displaying some signs of melancholy despite her engagement and recent graduation from college.

Those around her would not understand why she was experiencing this reaction or how to interpret it (only those who had known about the termination). Combine this with anger towards her Father from the pool party incident, and a tendency, a habit (if you will) of leaving her home to go to your parents' home when issues arose and she needed to cool off: MO, was not a stretch to see how her disappearance was viewed by some.

bbm: great insight --And LE did not know this piece either in 1975. Just a blanket depressed on the PR- could be anything, right? Not sure what LE would have done with it - unless it tied into whatever the BF/F said the argument was about?

I know this may have been touched on way back up thread #1 - Wondering if SL had extended family; aunts, uncles, cousins? Or even a professor? ...A benevolent someone to talk to, seek advice from in times of troubled waters?

 

[epiphany]

MMQC says..........

As far as time line for party. I'm a bit fuzzy on that. Summer for sure. Maybe EOA? Yes, not talking to father nor father to daughter. To my knowledge neither party apologised.

Thanks...remember that "EOA"...meaning End of August.

Wonder whether or not Mother EL checked via phone calls to see where SL actually was when she needed to "cool off."

Even much younger age: HS years, most of group I came up with: Parents did not call to see if we were where we claimed we were overnight. Occasionally, we would call from where we had said we would be sleeping (yeah, we were there--at that moment in time...temporarily and were calling from there), but then we would move to where we "actually" were going to spend the night.

That was the beauty of No Cell Phones in those days for teens/youth.

Here and there, a few of us may have gotten "nabbed," but I would say very rarely.

 

[Dushi]

MMQC thread 1 page 45 post 1106

I truly don't remember BF/F being there that night.

The word DEPRESSED comes up quite frequently. Depressed is not the word I would use. ANGRY yes, and embarrassed yes. At both herself and father. She spent the night at my house that night to cool off. Both SL and father acted, IMO, like asses but then I think alcohol was a big contributing factor. As for SL and alcohol? Can't be sure. Father yes. Big factor.
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