NY - Woman to become NY firefighter despite failing crucial fitness test

[Cubby]

Snipped



BBM

I'm pretty sure Wax would have to meet all the requirements that everyone else met, regardless of where she lived. Wonderful community or not.

And we don't know that she did not. Because ONLY NY uses the FST test. Wax did not meet the FST requirements. The rest of the country uses the CPAT test. There is no information on how Wax scored on the test acceptable everywhere but NY.

However, since the CPAT is a requirement as well, I assume she passed the CPAT, or the 'insider source' would have said she failed both.

The CPAT is a legally defensible and legitimate tool for assessing eligibility for employment. In addition to being endorsed by the IAFF and IAFC, the test meets validity criteria established by the federal Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the U.S. Department of Justice, and the U.S. Department of Labor.

http://www.nipsta.org/cpat/


NO ONE outside of NY uses the FST test. Does that mean all firefighters outside of NY are incompetent? :scale: There is a reason no one else uses the FST test.

Now, if Wax failed the CPAT that is a different story, but that is NOT what was leaked to msm.

 

[SophieRose]

And we don't know that she did not. Because ONLY NY uses the FST test. Wax did not meet the FST requirements. The rest of the country uses the CPAT test. There is no information on how Wax scored on the test acceptable everywhere but NY.

However, since the CPAT is a requirement as well, I assume she passed the CPAT, or the 'insider source' would have said she failed both.

The CPAT is a legally defensible and legitimate tool for assessing eligibility for employment. In addition to being endorsed by the IAFF and IAFC, the test meets validity criteria established by the federal Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the U.S. Department of Justice, and the U.S. Department of Labor.

http://www.nipsta.org/cpat/


NO ONE outside of NY uses the FST test. Does that mean all firefighters outside of NY are incompetent? :scale: There is a reason no one else uses the FST test.

Now, if Wax failed the CPAT that is a different story, but that is NOT what was leaked to msm.

And passing the FST only became a mandatory graduation requirement in 2008. How many hired prior to 2007 would pass it?

 

[Sonya610]

How would we know that? I've never met Capt. Green. Maybe he doesn't know right from left.

I think you may be joking....but in case you are not...

Since it is a test then it is assumed there is ONE answer is correct, and the correct answer is obviously C (based in elimination, not based in fireman training).

It's all about understanding the intention of the exam.

Exactly and if you are not sure you work backwards by eliminating "wrong" answers until you are left with one that is most likely the right answer.

 

[Trident]

If they were testing for reading comprehension, C wouldn't be a correct answer because nothing in the question indicates in which rear corner of the basement the fire is.
I would really love to see what all of you that claim it's not poorly written would have picked if you were not given the answer key.

I believe part of the question is testing whether or not you have trust in the word of your fellow fire fighters. Trust is a crucial component in high-risk jobs such as this. In most aspects of life a healthy dose of skepticism is good, but not when your life and that of others may be on the line.

I've never studied up for testing, nor read any books on it. I just figured out I had to use all my reading comprehension, and understand where this test was going, and why. Once you understand this, a large portion of comprehension/critical thinking, and trust will/should carry through to the job.

my opinion

 

[Sonya610]

Like if you can pee your name in the snow you qualify, but if have you have to squat, you fail. No discrimination at all. Same standard for everyone!

Nova you are always the voice for the "oppressed" people (or those that identify as oppressed). You have also pointed out that the feelings of the oppressed should count more heavily than the oppressors.

In this case women in general are supposedly being discriminated against so shouldn't their views on this topic count more than the views of others?

Seems to me MOST women see the value of selecting the strongest and most physically fit candidates for this job. When it comes to saving our kids and pets during a fire the gender of the firefight matters far less than their ABILITY to do all aspects of the job!

 

[jjenny]

I believe part of the question is testing whether or not you have trust in the word of your fellow fire fighters. Trust is a crucial component in high-risk jobs such as this. In most aspects of life a healthy dose of skepticism is good, but not when your life and that of others may be on the line.

I've never studied up for testing, nor read any books on it. I just figured out I had to use all my reading comprehension, and understand where this test was going, and why. Once you understand this, a large portion of comprehension/critical thinking, and trust will/should carry through to the job.

my opinion

It's a multiple choice question. Shouldn't you know which answer is correct before assuming you have to trust in the word of your fellow firefighters? Otherwsie, shouldn't you assume all answers are correct?

 

[jjenny]

I think you may be joking....but in case you are not...

Since it is a test then it is assumed there is ONE answer is correct, and the correct answer is obviously C (based in elimination, not based in fireman training).



Exactly and if you are not sure you work backwards by eliminating "wrong" answers until you are left with one that is most likely the right answer.

There is more information provided in this answer than there is in the question. Information that you have no way of knowing. This is not a well written question and answer set. In fact answer C could be wrong because the information provided in it comes from nowhere.

 

[jjenny]

I think you may be joking....but in case you are not...

Since it is a test then it is assumed there is ONE answer is correct, and the correct answer is obviously C (based in elimination, not based in fireman training).



Exactly and if you are not sure you work backwards by eliminating "wrong" answers until you are left with one that is most likely the right answer.

There is more information provided in this answer than there is in the question. Information that you have no way of knowing. This is not a well written question and answer set. In fact answer C could be wrong because the information provided in it comes from nowhere.

 

[Cubby]

And passing the FST only became a mandatory graduation requirement in 2008. How many hired prior to 2007 would pass it?

And what is really interesting about that, is the discrimination lawsuit which requires NYFD to payout close to 100 million began about the time the FST test came into play.

The following MSM article is dated 2014 and states the case lasted 7 years. Funny the timing.... the FST test came into play with a start date that coincides with the beginning of a discrimination law suit. http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/city-pay-98-million-fdny-discrimination-case-article-1.1725702


Too many factors point to this FST test being more about keeping people out, than it does some superior requirement for physical strength necessary ONLY in NY and not the rest of the country.

Now I am curious about possible future lawsuits. Will there be more since the only city, not state, but city in the country that requires this FST test is NYC. And with the :censored: :censored: who leaked the 'failure' to msm will we see possible future hostile work environment lawsuits? I'll be keeping an eye out.......

 

[Dana]

I thought the thread topic was, "Woman to become NY firefighter despite failing (and here's the big word) crucial fitness test"

Sounds to me that it must have been an important part of the test this person failed.

 

[sweetheart29]

While operating at a fire, Capt. Green, the commander of the Ladder Company 999, was sent by Chief Brown to locate the exact location of the fire. The fire building was two stories in height with a basement. Capt. Green found that the fire was located in one corner at the rear of the basement. The best way for Capt. Green to write this information in a fire report upon returning to the firehouse was as follows:


A) “The fire was located on the lower level, in the rear.”
B) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the lower level.”
C) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement.”
D) “The fire was located in the rear of the basement.”


The answer is "C: The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement."


I highlighted the question in red. C is the best answer cause it gives the most information . Capt. Green went to the fire, put the fire out then went back to the station and wrote his report. The question is what info did he need to put in his report. I am not sure what this has to do with a woman that can't past the exam. Is this the question she couldn't answer? I believe some people are agruging this just for the sake of agruging.

 

[Dana]

^
It doesn't have anything to do with the topic, I have no idea why it was brought up. This person did not pass a crucial FITNESS test, not a written test.

 

[Sonya610]

Sounds to me that it must have been an important part of the test this person failed.

From the article, she didn't fail one part of the test. She could complete all parts but she could NOT do it fast enough and she required extra oxygen to complete it.

The time limit was 17 minutes and her best time was 22 minutes. The oxygen thing is also worrisome. She is also 4 years OLDER than the cutoff. Whole thing just stinks, she not only expects special treatment regarding her age but then she can't even pass the physical test!

 

[Trident]

It's a multiple choice question. Shouldn't you know which answer is correct before assuming you have to trust in the word of your fellow firefighters? Otherwsie, shouldn't you assume all answers are correct?

OK, last try on this. Here's the question, important part underlined:

"While operating at a fire, Capt. Green, the commander of the Ladder Company 999, was sent by Chief Brown to locate the exact location of the fire. The fire building was two stories in height with a basement. Capt. Green found that the fire was located in one corner at the rear of the basement. The best way for Capt. Green to write this information in a fire report upon returning to the firehouse was as follows:


A) “The fire was located on the lower level, in the rear.”
B) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the lower level.”
C) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement.”
D) “The fire was located in the rear of the basement.”


The answer is "C: The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement."

Once you understand the question, it's really a no-brainer. Says I. LOL

 

[EllieBee]

I see what jjenny is saying.

In LE, too much specific detail given by a suspect could be seen as misleading. Whereas when a suspect keeps the story simpler and without the deets like "well, I remember it was 3:42 because that is when I always poach my afternoon egg, see I have an egg on toast every day. My dr said my protein was low. So anyway...I was poaching my egg so it must have been 3:42 when I heard the shots."

A test taker is not a suspect being questioned, of course, but often less info can be a more accurate description, because extraneous detail can cloud the important facts. (And while we DO know the fire was in the basement, we do not know in which corner)

I do agree C is the correct answer, but I really do see what jjenny is saying.

 

[jjenny]

From the article, she didn't fail one part of the test. She could complete all parts but she could NOT do it fast enough and she required extra oxygen to complete it.

The time limit was 17 minutes and her best time was 22 minutes. The oxygen thing is also worrisome. She is also 4 years OLDER than the cutoff. Whole thing just stinks, she not only expects special treatment regarding her age but then she can't even pass the physical test!

She is not getting special treatment regarding her age. The cut off for her is 36, because she already on the list of people who tried to take this test before.

 

[Sonya610]

A test taker is not a suspect being questioned, of course, but often less info can be a more accurate description, because extraneous detail can cloud the important facts.

Since it is a test the question wasn't supposed to be simple hence the extraneous detail. The test taker has to pay attention.

 

[jjenny]

OK, last try on this. Here's the question, important part underlined:

"While operating at a fire, Capt. Green, the commander of the Ladder Company 999, was sent by Chief Brown to locate the exact location of the fire. The fire building was two stories in height with a basement. Capt. Green found that the fire was located in one corner at the rear of the basement. The best way for Capt. Green to write this information in a fire report upon returning to the firehouse was as follows:


A) “The fire was located on the lower level, in the rear.”
B) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the lower level.”
C) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement.”
D) “The fire was located in the rear of the basement.”


The answer is "C: The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement."

Once you understand the question, it's really a no-brainer. Says I. LOL

What if they had the following answers:
A) “The fire was located on the lower level, in the rear.”
B) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the lower level.”
C) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement.”
D) “The fire was located in the southwest corner of the basement.”

Is the C still a correct answer? Notice I didn't change a word in choice C.

 

[EllieBee]

She is not getting special treatment regarding her age. The cut off for her is 36, because she already on the list of people who tried to take this test before.

Yes, this is true per all the above linked articles. She was already on the list. No special treatment there.

I do agree that any applicant to a FD ought to be able to pass whatever test is required, provided that test is the same for any and all applicants. This appears to be the case here.

It might be overdoing it to require the more strenuous physical test, but this is the NYFD standard and it isn't some secret, I would imagine. When you train, you KNOW this is the expectation.

 

[EllieBee]

Since it is a test the question wasn't supposed to be simple hence the extraneous detail. The test taker has to pay attention.

I wasn't saying "simple" as in "easy". I was saying that sometimes just getting to the meat of it without extraneous details that may or may not be accurate would be the more prudent choice in an emergency.

Like when you call 911. They want the least amount of detail that gives the most vital info.