OH - 9 killed + Gunman, 16 injured, Mass Shooting, Oregon District, Dayton, 4 Aug 2019

[Inthedetails]

Yes, domestic terrorism DOES apply when killers target groups in the civilian population.

We should use it. Also heavily regulate access to, quantity and type of ammo.
Minimum 3 wk waiting period. Small quantities with caps on total amount per yr. Ban the sale and manufacture of heavy duty ammo. Like we used to.

I think targeting a specific group, without other intent, qualifies as a hate crime.

Terrorism requires the elements posted upthread - basically the intent to influence government policy and government conduct.

Of course, I could be wrong - but that's my growing understanding of the legal term "terrorism."

jmo

 

[cody22]

I think that HR8, which just passed the house, may be of some help too, if it passes the Senate. It will prevent person to person sales. If I sell a firearm to Joe Blow, he and I would have to go to a gun shop, or wherever, and have a background check done. I would never sell to an individual, but a lot will. I think it would close the gun show loophole too, iirc, since that is person to person.

Opinion - You are then hindering,restricting, punishing, and making "criminals" out of all the law abiding citizens, from the practice of owning, selling, and giving away firearms, in order to punish the minority of people in the USA. The criminals and lots of " American Patriots including LE" will just laugh at your "New Wonderful Gun Control laws" and do what they wish too anyway.....moo

 

[danzn16]

Why was he released? His victims never got a second chance.

Because he was a minor and in the state minors can not be tried as adults. So according to the law he was released at 21. Appears he was married and has a child at the time of his death. He did get in trouble for applying for a concealed handgun which to me is incredibly insulting that he should ever be allowed to touch a gun again or would even want to if it really was just being young and dumb as they made it sound. But there no further crimes he committed. Very controversial. But it seems nature took him out at a very young age.

 

[x_files]

I'd wondered if sister was killed trying to stop her killer brother but it appears sister Megen and their mutual friend Chace were also targets of the madman. (Chace was also allegedly named on killer's high school "hit list").

Connor Betts shot his best friend during mass shooting after driving with him to Dayton | Daily Mail Online

DailyMail.com has exclusively learned that Charles 'Chace' Beard, 24, was the man who was in the car with Betts and Megan when they drove to the Oregon District where Betts carried out the second mass shooting of the weekend.

And Beard was among the first victims to be shot by 24-year-old Betts in his so-far motiveless massacre conducted in the early hours of Sunday morning.

He and Megan Betts appear to have been standing outside Ned Peppers Bar when Betts opened fire.

Betts, who was armed with an AR-15, wearing body armor and a mask and had as many as 250 rounds of ammunition, was taken down by cops about 30 seconds after he opened fire.

Chillingly, DailyMail.com can reveal, that Beard and Megan Betts were both 'among the first victims,' according to police. Beard appears to be friendly with Megan too, but according to his social media profile is in a relationship with another women.

ETA: Comments by former gf/classmate indicate killer had good relationship with his sister Megan.

"It just seems to defy believability that he would shoot his own sister," Biehl said. "But it is also hard to believe he didn't recognize his sister, so we just don't know."

Doll said she liked Betts most when he was with his sister, describing them as close friends. She remembers him speaking highly of Megan, of her intellect and kindness. They would gently tease each other and often erupt in fits of laughter when together.

"They would play off of one another," she said. "She was the bright, happy soul and he was the dark, more reserved one."

I'm shocked his sister and friend felt safe enough to ride with him anywhere. Makes me think his violent personality was downplayed. That they were so used to his threats.

 

[danzn16]

I think targeting a specific group, without other intent, qualifies as a hate crime.

Terrorism requires the elements posted upthread - basically the intent to influence government policy and government conduct.

Of course, I could be wrong - but that's my growing understanding of the legal term "terrorism."

jmo

I have the thought according to his last twitter post, the fact he claims he’s a leftist and has spoken out about mass shootings in the past, that it could be possible this was to influence government policy. But that’s just a theory of my own floating around in the back of my head

 

[Betty P]

I think targeting a specific group, without other intent, qualifies as a hate crime.

Terrorism requires the elements posted upthread - basically the intent to influence government policy and government conduct.

Of course, I could be wrong - but that's my growing understanding of the legal term "terrorism."

jmo

Yes, I quoted the wording from the ACLU page on the Patriot Act and the definition of domestic terrorism. That wording was originally slipped into the Patriot Act to allow the government to target groups like Greenpeace, etc. But, yeah, it applies to these guys, too.

"Section 802 of the USA PATRIOT Act (Pub. L. No. 107-52) expanded the definition of terrorism to cover ""domestic,"" as opposed to international, terrorism. A person engages in domestic terrorism if they do an act "dangerous to human life" that is a violation of the criminal laws of a state or the United States, if the act appears to be intended to: (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping. Additionally, the acts have to occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States and if they do not, may be regarded as international terrorism."

How the USA PATRIOT Act redefines "Domestic Terrorism"

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-107publ56/html/PLAW-107publ56.htm

 

[nanwv]

Adelia Johnson, ex-girlfriend of Connor Betts

Connor Betts' ex-girlfriend says he showed her a massacre video | Daily Mail Online

A former girlfriend of the Dayton shooter exclusively speaks to @gabegutierrez, saying there were red flags and that he showed her video of a mass shooting on their first date and later took her to a gun range.

 

[Inthedetails]

Yes, I quoted the wording from the ACLU page on the Patriot Act and the definition of domestic terrorism. That wording was originally slipped into the Patriot Act to allow the government to target groups like Greenpeace, etc. But, yeah, it applies to these guys, too.

"Section 802 of the USA PATRIOT Act (Pub. L. No. 107-52) expanded the definition of terrorism to cover ""domestic,"" as opposed to international, terrorism. A person engages in domestic terrorism if they do an act "dangerous to human life" that is a violation of the criminal laws of a state or the United States, if the act appears to be intended to: (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping. Additionally, the acts have to occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States and if they do not, may be regarded as international terrorism."

How the USA PATRIOT Act redefines "Domestic Terrorism"

So only ONE of the items needs to be intended, not all? I was assuming you had to have all the elements (i, ii, and iii).

Doesn't just about any crime intimidate a civilian population?

jmo

 

[rsd1200]

Opinion - You are then hindering,restricting, punishing, and making "criminals" out of all the law abiding citizens, from the practice of owning, selling, and giving away firearms, in order to punish the minority of people in the USA. The criminals and lots of " American Patriots including LE" will just laugh at your "New Wonderful Gun Control laws" and do what they wish too anyway.....moo

Have you read HR8? Why would I want to sell to a convicted felon? Especially a violent one. As a gun owner, collector, myself, I would not.

 

[enelram]

Adelia Johnson, ex-girlfriend of Connor Betts

Connor Betts' ex-girlfriend says he showed her a massacre video | Daily Mail Online

A former girlfriend of the Dayton shooter exclusively speaks to @gabegutierrez, saying there were red flags and that he showed her video of a mass shooting on their first date and later took her to a gun range.

...and another female friend said he showed her
clips of many mass shootings and that he knew
many of the facts about the incidents.

Where have we heard this recently about another mass shooter?

 

[cody22]

Have you read HR8? Why would I want to sell to a convicted felon? Especially a violent one. As a gun owner, collector, myself, I would not.

Yes.......... That law restricts the private sale of firearms to anyone without an FFL holder being involved at some point. Most people are not convicted felons and never will be. It restricts a long held freedom and punishes the innocent...... You believe as you wish, and obey whatever laws you desire to, and I will do the same for me...... We are a divided country it seems....It will be interesting to see how all this "fix evil and insane people gun control" talk turns out...... moo

 

[Betty P]

So only ONE of the items needs to be intended, not all? I was assuming you had to have all the elements (i, ii, and iii).

Doesn't just about any crime intimidate a civilian population?

jmo

Correct, just one of those tests need to be met. Any prosecutor pursuing the charge would have to make their case in federal court, but it wouldn't be difficult for these mass killers who have targets and agendas that they've made clear.

Even better, they're also subject to asset forfeiture, as are any other parties who assisted them in any way.

"Seizure of assets - Sec. 806: Section 806 of the Act could result in the civil seizure of their assets without a prior hearing, and without them ever being convicted of a crime. It is by far the most significant change of which political organizations need to be aware. Section 806 amended the civil asset forfeiture statute to authorize the government to seize and forfeit: all assets, foreign or domestic (i) of any individual, entity, or organization engaged in planning or perpetrating any act of domestic or international terrorism against the United States, or their property, and all assets, foreign or domestic, affording any person a source of influence over any such entity or organization or (ii) acquired or maintained by any person with the intent and for the purpose of supporting, planning, conducting, or concealing an act of domestic or international terrorism against the United States, citizens or residents of the United States or their property or (iii) derived from, involved in, or used or intended to be used to commit any act of domestic or international terrorism against the United States, citizens or residents of the United States, or their property.

So, the government, without a hearing or without the subject being convicted of a crime, can seize the assets of the domestic terrorist and any other person, group, business, etc who supported or assisted the terrorist in any way. This is a very powerful tool that should be used to put an end to the promulgation of terrorist idealism and planning on web sites, etc. It may also be used to penalize the death merchants who peddle guns and ammo without doing background checks.

JMO

 

[rsd1200]

Yes.......... That law restricts the private sale of firearms to anyone without an FFL holder being involved at some point. Most people are not convicted felons and never will be. It restricts a long held freedom and punishes the innocent...... You believe as you wish, and obey whatever laws you desire to, and I will do the same for me...... We are a divided country it seems....It will be interesting to see how all this "fix evil and insane people gun control" talk turns out...... moo

I buy one online, I have to go to a FFL holder, big deal... You want to be able to buy and sell, to and from felons, then that thinking is part of the problem. It is illegal for a felon to own a firearm. I prefer not to be a part of them obtaining one. MOO.

 

[MassGuy]

I think targeting a specific group, without other intent, qualifies as a hate crime.

Terrorism requires the elements posted upthread - basically the intent to influence government policy and government conduct.

Of course, I could be wrong - but that's my growing understanding of the legal term "terrorism."

jmo

Yeah, I think hate crimes should be put in a separate category from “terrorism.”

There is already federal legislation on the books.

Terrorism requires violence for a political aim.

Tim Mcveigh, the 911 terrorists; people like that.

Stephen Paddock killed 58 people, but because we don’t know his motive, I don’t support calling that terrorism either.

I don’t like expanding the definition, because it muddies the waters.

Motive is a necessary element to the definition.

 

[Yellowbeak]

Just a thought. If someone with mental health issues uses recreational drugs then here the mental health professionals will hold off a lot of treatment as they do not want to prescribe medication. If even a minor will not cooperate with therapy there is little anyone can do in this case.

Very true. Unfortunately people tend to try and self medicate which makes things worse. Problem is they don’t believe it. Mental health problems and substance abuse is a bad combination.

 

[cody22]

I buy one online, I have to go to a FFL holder, big deal... You want to be able to buy and sell, to and from felons, then that thinking is part of the problem. It is illegal for a felon to own a firearm. I prefer not to be a part of them obtaining one. MOO.[

I buy one online, I have to go to a FFL holder, big deal... You want to be able to buy and sell, to and from felons, then that thinking is part of the problem. It is illegal for a felon to own a firearm. I prefer not to be a part of them obtaining one. MOO.

I do not not do business with felons either......People that are willing to give up any of their long held freedoms in order " to feel good and do the right thing for the overall good of the community", that is their business. I will do as I wish, and I am not alone in my choices...... Let us just sit back and watch the "gun control show" on TV and see how it all turns out......moo

 

[Jessthinkin]

I'm shocked his sister and friend felt safe enough to ride with him anywhere. Makes me think his violent personality was downplayed. That they were so used to his threats.

I wonder if he'd been on "good behavior" lately to hide his intentions as he planned and prepared and stockpiled...

 

[Gardenista]

“He was being really mean to her,” Gould said of Connor’s behavior towards his sister. Connor Betts, 24, opened fire early Sunday morning on a crowd in Dayton's Oregon District killing nine before police killed him.

Gould said that she stepped in to defend her friend.

“He strangled me because I got in his face to leave her [Megan] alone,” she said.

Connor, a high school freshman at the time, strangled Gould until his mother started crying, begging him to stop.

Gould didn’t tell anyone about the incident.

“His mom saw it,” she said. “They were gonna talk to someone.”

'He strangled me': More on childhood of Dayton shooter Connor Betts

 

[Gardenista]

A grieving son told how his father died in his arms during the Dayton massacre — and how he believes he spoke to the killer’s dying sister as she gasped for help nearby.

Dion Green, 37, had invited dad Derrick Fudge, 57, for a night out in the Ohio entertainment district when he spotted a masked man in the early hours Sunday.

“[He] came around the corner, heard two shots, ‘Pop! Pop!’ I’m still thinking this is not real,” Green told CNN.

https://nypost.com/2019/08/06/man-recalls-father-dying-in-his-arms-during-dayton-massacre/

 

[MsBetsy]

...and another female friend said he showed her
clips of many mass shootings and that he knew
many of the facts about the incidents.

Where have we heard this recently about another mass shooter?

Yes, this seems to be common in so many cases.
Reading about previous mass shooters inspires them to copy certain methods and try to out-do them by killing even more people.
Experts refer to it as the "media contagion effect."
Imo