OH - Annabelle Richardson, newborn, found in shallow grave, Carlisle, 7 May 2017 #2

[iluvmua]

She is a child, Chris Watts is a grown man. I don't think that is even a close comparison. I am more sympathetic to cases like this. It's not just feeling for what she went through, it's what cases like hers mean to other women that miscarry or have stillbirths. She gave birth alone in a bathroom with no medical care. No prenatal care. I'm surprised she didn't die. There are birth complications in even the most perfect pregnancies. You could do everything right and one day the fetal heartbeat vanishes or the umbilical cord strangles your child as it leaves the womb.
Chris Watts didn't ask for his parents. He was a husband and father and killed his family. Nothing died on the way out of his body.

She was 18 and it was her fault and her choice not to get prenatal care and medical care. That is all on her.

All she had to do was pick up the phone and call 911.

 

[gitana1]

Somewhere in all the videos she did have an outburst of inconsolable sobbing. I could barely understand what she was saying and she had to quickly gather herself. I dont believe it was acting. I'm working now but I'll hunt the exact point I noticed. It may not be with LE.
I recognize that outburst as deep grief and pain. I've seen that before and been through it myself. I took it at face value. I am not saying she isn't guilty of every charge but believed her outburst was genuine at the time I saw it. My opinion may be different once I watch it again, hope not.

Yeah but that deep grief and pain IMO had to do with getting caught and having mommy and daddy angry.

She proudly sent selfies to her mom excitedly discussing the weight she shed (into a toilet which she retrieved and put into a pit) and seemed none the worse for wear only hours after her baby died.

She was proud. Not grieving. "Oh my God my belly is back!"

 

[Winterhike]

She is a child, Chris Watts is a grown man. I don't think that is even a close comparison. I am more sympathetic to cases like this. It's not just feeling for what she went through, it's what cases like hers mean to other women that miscarry or have stillbirths. She gave birth alone in a bathroom with no medical care. No prenatal care. I'm surprised she didn't die. There are birth complications in even the most perfect pregnancies. You could do everything right and one day the fetal heartbeat vanishes or the umbilical cord strangles your child as it leaves the womb.
Chris Watts didn't ask for his parents. He was a husband and father and killed his family. Nothing died on the way out of his body.

Legally, she of course isn't a child, but since we are talking about biases we have in this case I too feel a certain protectiveness about her that I don't think I would feel if she were 25, or probably even male, or if her parents seemed like they had cared for her emotional health better throughout her life. I feel sorry for the innocent baby here AND for BSR. I also have some bias about how unfair it feels that two kids (I think; I am not sure if he was 17 or 18 or what) had sex in August 2016 and only one of them has to deal with this now. I mean of course this is a biological difference that will never change, but it still doesn't feel particularly equitable to me.

 

[gitana1]

These explanations might sound like BS excuses to many people, but BSR's mental illness, underdeveloped prefrontal cortex due to her age (and possibly malnutrition), and arguably neglectful parenting are still part of the equation. What she did is still wrong (whether she killed the baby, neglected it, or just hid its truly stillborn body), but I believe her state of mind is still something the jury must consider.

Agreed. But that seems often to be the sentiment only for the Skylar Richardsons of the nation and not other young people who commit crimes due to a variety of reasons.

 

[princessdana]

would you please stop being so sympathetic. alot of people have issues but at the end of the day you still know right from wrong and even if she didn't kill her baby she pretty much threw her in the dirt and went on without a care in the world even bragging about her "new body. " the defense is painting a picture of what a sweet innocent girl she is but the paint wasn't dry and we are seeing a different side of her and it's not a good one.

 

[gitana1]

She is a child, Chris Watts is a grown man. I don't think that is even a close comparison. I am more sympathetic to cases like this. It's not just feeling for what she went through, it's what cases like hers mean to other women that miscarry or have stillbirths. She gave birth alone in a bathroom with no medical care. No prenatal care. I'm surprised she didn't die. There are birth complications in even the most perfect pregnancies. You could do everything right and one day the fetal heartbeat vanishes or the umbilical cord strangles your child as it leaves the womb.
Chris Watts didn't ask for his parents. He was a husband and father and killed his family. Nothing died on the way out of his body.

Yes there's a difference in age and crime but she was 18. Not 13. She was not a child. And her parents were right in the house with her. She wasn't giving birth alone in a jail cell or on the street. These were choices she made.

I also don't believe she gave birth to a dead baby. Everything that she did and said before and after indicate she never intended to deal with a live child.

Comparing this young woman - "I can't have a baby!" "Oh my God I got my belly back!" Putting her naked newborn in a shallow dirt pit- with a woman who loses a desired-for pregnancy, sounds a little bit more like projecting than reality to me.

She showed no attachment to her child either before or after. And no way do I believe the self-serving statements about flowers on the "grave" and lovingly giving her child a name.

"Oh my God I got my belly back!"

She didn't want this child and made sure the child would not exist.

 

[Winterhike]

Agreed. But that seems often to be the sentiment only for the Skylar Richardsons of the nation and not other young people who commit crimes due to a variety of reasons.

Agree; I wish people were more inclined to extend the empathy they feel toward someone who fits this profile toward other people who don't but probably have just as many or even more mitigating factors in their lives up to the moment of their crimes. It really makes me think -- I'm all worried about how BSR's eating disorders might have changed her brain through malnutrition (and I think the defense will try to use this factor too), but how often do we talk about malnutrition or poor nutrition affecting the brain development of other accused teenagers or young adults who just happened to be raised in urban nutritional wastelands of inner cities? Just as one example of how the playing field is never really level, I guess.

 

[Heaven Leigh]

I think most 17 year olds would be afraid to tell their parents they are pregnant. She is no different.
From what I've seen so far w/LE ..they treated her pretty darn good. She did not make any plans for this birth. She had options. Girls get pregnant every day in High School. Honor roll , cheerleader, eating disorder, controlling parent..whatever the case. I have tried to feel sorry for her but I cant.
That baby should be alive and with loving parents.
imo-

 

[gitana1]

She was 18 and it was her fault and her choice not to get prenatal care and medical care. That is all on her.

All she had to do was pick up the phone and call 911.

Yes and unlike some other cases she actually did go to a doctor, got an actual pregnancy test, was given an ultrasound and shown the beating heart, was told how far along she was and options were discussed with her (she wanted to end the pregnancy and was told she was too far along but adoption was discussed), and after that the doctor's office reached out to her and called her multiple times to get her to seek follow up care!

This is NOT a case of a confused young woman who sees her growing belly and ignores reality. She knew exactly what was happening and exactly what her options were. She was clear to the medical staff that she could not have a baby. She researched after being told abortion couldn't not happen, how to get rid of a baby.

For me it's clear she knew what was going on and what she was doing.

 

[zea mays]

I just want to say that conversations like this are the reason that WS is my preferred place to discuss cases like this. The conversation is mostly civil, rational and fact-based even when people disagree. I enjoy having a place to talk that doesn't devolve into emotional name-calling.

Just casting my vote (so to speak!) about what her dad meant when he said "unfortunately, this has happened before": I think he was talking about neonaticide in general. She was trying to make the point that she couldn't possibly have hurt the baby because it was her own, and I think he was (fairly gently) dismissing this as a good enough explanation because of course other women and girls have hurt or killed their newborns.

I agree that his comment COULD be interpreted as a reference to BSR having a general history of lying, or even of having a prior abortion, but my opinion is he wasn't talking about either of those things here.

I agree completely. Also, she had no problem telling her MD about burying a stillborn, I feel like a previous pregnancy would've been recorded. There were no previous pregnancies in the documentation from the MD's office.

I thought she was using the towel to absorb the blood coming out of her own body too. Her mom seems like the type that would notice if all her good towels were missing when she woke up. I think Skylar mentioned using about 3 for the whole process, including cleaning.

She may not have used the good towels. She was in labor for quite some time (and did state that the thought that might be the cause of her pain) and maybe grabbed some shop towels or cleaning towels earlier that day.

Didn't the prosecution offer her a plea deal last week and she/defense refused? Or am I mistaken?

Further testimony and evidence from electronic devices may show a different picture than the one I've developed in my brain.

I cannot wait to see the search and text evidence. I also really hope the diary will come in.

She is a child, Chris Watts is a grown man. I don't think that is even a close comparison. I am more sympathetic to cases like this. It's not just feeling for what she went through, it's what cases like hers mean to other women that miscarry or have stillbirths. She gave birth alone in a bathroom with no medical care. No prenatal care. I'm surprised she didn't die. There are birth complications in even the most perfect pregnancies. You could do everything right and one day the fetal heartbeat vanishes or the umbilical cord strangles your child as it leaves the womb.
Chris Watts didn't ask for his parents. He was a husband and father and killed his family. Nothing died on the way out of his body.

I'm really not sure what you mean by the bolded. Are you stating that women who have stillborn babies should just bury them in their yards? And that this case will make that impossible?

I agree. A lot was at play here to cause her to do what she did. Secrecy. Shame.

But it' seems very odd because it seems like she didn't work that hard to hide things. Like her "secrets" were actually family secrets and it was understood that you just don't talk about such things.

Her aunt described how she would clearly go to the bathroom and vomit up her food and come out smiling and talking normally. And no one confronted her. "Honey! Are you okay? What are you doing to yourself?"

Nope. Just accept it silently and don't address it. So dysfunctional. I mean I believe she knew that her family knew what she was doing and either she understood that it just wasn't something to TALK about but was accepted, or she was subtly asking for help by making it obvious and not getting any help. And what message that sends, I don't know.

Then comes the pregnancy. She was concealing it but also not. She apparently swam all summer in a bikini. She went to prom in a form fitting dress.

She instantly texted her mom a selfie of her post-pregnant body, hours after getting rid of her baby. I mean that's almost delusionally unaware. Unless it's not.

It gives me the impression that in that family appearance and weight were vastly more important than health, stability and even life. This gal either killed her infant and disposed of it like animal bones in a fire pit or allowed her baby to die for lack of care as she stared at it, or at the least, (which I don't believe), gave birth to a seeming stillborn, stared at the body for an hour while doing nothing and then tossed its naked body into a shallow pit.

Yet a mere hours later her main concern was showing her mom how overnight she shed pounds of stomach weight and would never allow that to happen again.

It seems to be all about the weight and her body and nothing about the baby or even the trauma she herself should have gone through if she gave birth to a still born and had to bury the body.

It's really quite disturbing and unreal.

The bolded just sparked a thought. Do you think BSR wanted her family to ask her about it? That if they just asked she would play dumb and they would find out together? I know the fact that email came and she denied it her mom kinds of makes the answer to this idea no, but that happened after she knew for sure. Just a thought...

Legally, she of course isn't a child, but since we are talking about biases we have in this case I too feel a certain protectiveness about her that I don't think I would feel if she were 25, or probably even male, or if her parents seemed like they had cared for her emotional health better throughout her life. I feel sorry for the innocent baby here AND for BSR. I also have some bias about how unfair it feels that two kids (I think; I am not sure if he was 17 or 18 or what) had sex last August and only one of them has to deal with this now. I mean of course this is a biological difference that will never change, but it still doesn't feel particularly equitable to me.

I get your point in general, but in this case, I don't think this makes any sense. There's no evidence that this boy even knew there was a baby until months after it was disposed of. What possible part could he play in this? His life has been changed. He will forever be connected to a murder trial.

Agreed. But that seems often to be the sentiment only for the Skylar Richardsons of the nation and not other young people who commit crimes due to a variety of reasons.

This is far too true.

 

[gitana1]

Legally, she of course isn't a child, but since we are talking about biases we have in this case I too feel a certain protectiveness about her that I don't think I would feel if she were 25, or probably even male, or if her parents seemed like they had cared for her emotional health better throughout her life. I feel sorry for the innocent baby here AND for BSR. I also have some bias about how unfair it feels that two kids (I think; I am not sure if he was 17 or 18 or what) had sex in August 2016 and only one of them has to deal with this now. I mean of course this is a biological difference that will never change, but it still doesn't feel particularly equitable to me.

I agree with so much of what you say. You're candid and honest and empathetic. However in many cases both kids do have to deal with the problem because the father is told. Only one of them did NOT have to deal with this in this case. She chose not to tell him. He had no choice.

 

[gitana1]

Agree; I wish people were more inclined to extend the empathy they feel toward someone who fits this profile toward other people who don't but probably have just as many or even more mitigating factors in their lives up to the moment of their crimes. It really makes me think -- I'm all worried about how BSR's eating disorders might have changed her brain through malnutrition (and I think the defense will try to use this factor too), but how often do we talk about malnutrition or poor nutrition affecting the brain development of other accused teenagers or young adults who just happened to be raised in urban nutritional wastelands of inner cities? Just as one example of how the playing field is never really level, I guess.

Great post. 100% agreed.

 

[gitana1]

I think most 17 year olds would be afraid to tell their parents they are pregnant. She is no different.
From what I've seen so far w/LE ..they treated her pretty darn good. She did not make any plans for this birth. She had options. Girls get pregnant every day in High School. Honor roll , cheerleader, eating disorder, controlling parent..whatever the case. I have tried to feel sorry for her but I cant.
That baby should be alive and with loving parents.
imo-

You're right. But I don't think they treated her well at all. Outside witnesses discuss how controlling and obsessed with Skylar's weight her mom was.

Also, their conduct toward her at the police station is very revealing. I do not believe these were good, kind, supportive parents at all.

 

[Fidobell]

I see a young lady who was more afraid of her mother than murder investigators. I empathize with that bc I was in foster care bc of an evil patronizing mum. I also fell pregnant at 19 with no support and I didn’t hide it or whatever else happened to Annabelle.
I can say I hate her mother and I feel like her father is beat down by her too. The “bag of popcorn” quote makes no sense to me, nor does her reaction. Why was everyone so troubled by a half eaten bag of popped corn?

I'm missing what the bag of popcorn quote meant . Is this a local or even regional saying ? Thanks in advance

 

[Winterhike]

Yes and unlike some other cases she actually did go to a doctor, got an actual pregnancy test, was given an ultrasound and shown the beating heart, was told how far along she was and options were discussed with her (she wanted to end the pregnancy and was told she was too far along but adoption was discussed), and after that the doctor's office reached out to her and called her multiple times to get her to seek follow up care!

This is NOT a case of a confused young woman who sees her growing belly and ignores reality. She knew exactly what was happening and exactly what her options were. She was clear to the medical staff that she could not have a baby. She researched after being told abortion couldn't not happen, how to get rid of a baby.

For me it's clear she knew what was going on and what she was doing.

I agree again. I think there was some element of denial but not to the degree that she didn't realize she was pregnant or that there would be a baby. I think her denial was more about timing, like that she thought she had more time to figure out what to do, and perhaps that she is used to exerting terrible control over her own body and thought she could continue to do that in this case.

I also think her understanding of what her actual options were was abnormal and affected by her own pathology and family environment. A reasonable person (even a very young one) may have made other choices even if they did not want the baby and did not believe their parents would accept her. She could have driven with the baby to leave it at a hospital or fire station or any number of places (she had her own car). She could have run away and then returned after the birth. She could have asked the doctor to help her. She could have woken up her parents in the middle of the night, when the obvious emergency situation would probably have overridden their disapproval at least in that moment.

But I don't think she was operating reasonably, because apparently none of these options seemed better to her than giving birth all by herself, possibly killing her baby or allowing it to die, and then leaving it in the backyard grave. Honestly I think the backyard grave (and the return to the same medical practice and even the text to her mother from the gym) are all evidence that she had some level of emotional regret about all this. Again, she had a car and could have put the baby somewhere where nobody would have known it was hers. She did not have to mention a thing about the change in her belly to anyone.

I think the real question at trial is how criminal was her level of unreasonableness, vs. how pathological.

 

[ilovematt]

I'm missing what the bag of popcorn quote meant . Is this a local or even regional saying ? Thanks in advance

Not that I know of and I’ve lived in 13 states and now in Canada. It felt to me that she was tucked into a tasty bag of popped corn when this all came crashing down and the snack will regrettably go uneaten.

 

[gitana1]

I just want to say that conversations like this are the reason that WS is my preferred place to discuss cases like this. The conversation is mostly civil, rational and fact-based even when people disagree. I enjoy having a place to talk that doesn't devolve into emotional name-calling.



I agree completely. Also, she had no problem telling her MD about burying a stillborn, I feel like a previous pregnancy would've been recorded. There were no previous pregnancies in the documentation from the MD's office.



She may not have used the good towels. She was in labor for quite some time (and did state that the thought that might be the cause of her pain) and maybe grabbed some shop towels or cleaning towels earlier that day.



I cannot wait to see the search and text evidence. I also really hope the diary will come in.




I'm really not sure what you mean by the bolded. Are you stating that women who have stillborn babies should just bury them in their yards? And that this case will make that impossible?



The bolded just sparked a thought. Do you think BSR wanted her family to ask her about it? That if they just asked she would play dumb and they would find out together? I know the fact that email came and she denied it her mom kinds of makes the answer to this idea no, but that happened after she knew for sure. Just a thought...



I get your point in general, but in this case, I don't think this makes any sense. There's no evidence that this boy even knew there was a baby until months after it was disposed of. What possible part could he play in this? His life has been changed. He will forever be connected to a murder trial.



This is far too true.

What grounds are the defense using to try to keep the diary out? The doctor can testify but her diary stays out? That would be weird.

Maybe she was trying to get her parents' help. Yeah I do think it's possible she was somehow asking for help and wanting them to rescue her and support her in this. Maybe subconsciously. But of course they didn't because that's not who they are. IMO.

It's all sorts of Freudian nightmare. She was basically telling her mom she got rid of the "problem" after the problem wasn't acknowledged and she wasn't given her parents' love and support to deal with it normally. She did what was expected of her. Keep quiet and lose the thing that made her fat.

Her statement to her boyfriend is similarly revealing. So disturbing. "Last night was like the worst ever and I didn't go to sleep until 5:30 but I feel soooo much better this morning and I'm happy".

 

[gitana1]

Not that I know of and I’ve lived in 13 states and now in Canada. It felt to me that she was tucked into a tasty bag of popped corn when this all came crashing down and the snack will regrettably go uneaten.

It also seems to match with the general obsession with weight and appearance and shame in that family. It seemed like a subtle and probably typical putdown. "Look at you, you pig. Guess you won't be able to continue enjoying that food you aren't supposed to eat, glutton."

 

[Winterhike]

I agree with so much of what you say. You're candid and honest and empathetic. However in many cases both kids do have to deal with the problem because the father is told. Only one of them did NOT have to deal with this in this case. She chose not to tell him. He had no choice.

You're right, there's no telling how the father in this case might have chosen to respond had he been given a choice; he might even have been able to help BSR and change the outcome of this tragedy. My bias comes from a more general sense of the allocation of shame in cases like this and doesn't necessarily apply here since we just don't know.

 

[osu]

I'm missing what the bag of popcorn quote meant . Is this a local or even regional saying ? Thanks in advance

I’m in the same state and I’ve never heard that saying used before.

I think the parents were angry and wanted BSR to hurt, saying anything they could to make her hurt. In this case it must’ve been the popcorn?

You’ve been very bad and you won’t get to go home with us and have your snack.

JMO