OH - Annabelle Richardson, newborn, found in shallow grave, Carlisle, 7 May 2017 #2

[gitana1]

I agree again. I think there was some element of denial but not to the degree that she didn't realize she was pregnant or that there would be a baby. I think her denial was more about timing, like that she thought she had more time to figure out what to do, and perhaps that she is used to exerting terrible control over her own body and thought she could continue to do that in this case.

I also think her understanding of what her actual options were was abnormal and affected by her own pathology and family environment. A reasonable person (even a very young one) may have made other choices even if they did not want the baby and did not believe their parents would accept her. She could have driven with the baby to leave it at a hospital or fire station or any number of places (she had her own car). She could have run away and then returned after the birth. She could have asked the doctor to help her. She could have woken up her parents in the middle of the night, when the obvious emergency situation would probably have overridden their disapproval at least in that moment.

But I don't think she was operating reasonably, because apparently none of these options seemed better to her than giving birth all by herself, possibly killing her baby or allowing it to die, and then leaving it in the backyard grave. Honestly I think the backyard grave (and the return to the same medical practice and even the text to her mother from the gym) are all evidence that she had some level of emotional regret about all this. Again, she had a car and could have put the baby somewhere where nobody would have known it was hers. She did not have to mention a thing about the change in her belly to anyone.

I think the real question at trial is how criminal was her level of unreasonableness, vs. how pathological.

To me the pathology of this whole thing is undeniable. Last paragraph = absolute truth. Also what degree does pathology mitigate crime. To what degree of any does it eliminate or reduce choice.

It's a sad but interesting case. So many ethical issues involved.

 

[ilovematt]

It also seems to match with the general obsession with weight and appearance and shame in that family. It seemed like a subtle and probably typical putdown. "Look at you, you pig. Guess you won't be able to continue enjoying that food you aren't supposed to eat, glutton."

Yeah, truth. Being told you’re not as attractive as you could be (or comparing you to your siblings), passive aggressive weight/eating comments and being emotionally void can really do a number on any kid but namely women. I think she’s a liar, master manipulator and I honestly feel the baby wasn’t stillborn, but I think the blood is on that mothers hands. All my opinions and all conjecture.

 

[Tssiemer]

Guys. I live in the county. She was probably eating popcorn when the cops got her to come to the police station. Nothing pathological about it. JMO

 

[Winterhike]

It also seems to match with the general obsession with weight and appearance and shame in that family. It seemed like a subtle and probably typical putdown. "Look at you, you pig. Guess you won't be able to continue enjoying that food you aren't supposed to eat, glutton."

I bet more than one person in this family is obsessed with food.

 

[gitana1]

You're right, there's no telling how the father in this case might have chosen to respond had he been given a choice; he might even have been able to help BSR and change the outcome of this tragedy. My bias comes from a more general sense of the allocation of shame in cases like this and doesn't necessarily apply here since we just don't know.

I mean I think we do know though. Because he wasn't informed and he wasn't able to make a choice and he wasn't there when she gave birth and got rid of the evidence.

He bears no blame for what happened because he wasn't a part of it.

There have been cases where the boyfriend is involved and both conspire to kill the baby. Both have been prosecuted. Amy Grossberg and Brian Peterson comes to mind.

They also claimed the baby was stillborn. That's a common claim in these cases, from what I've seen. But the body in that one was found in time and it was clear that the child died from being shaken and head injuries.

They each served about two years.

 

[gitana1]

Yeah, truth. Being told you’re not as attractive as you could be (or comparing you to your siblings), passive aggressive weight/eating comments and being emotionally void can really do a number on any kid but namely women. I think she’s a liar, master manipulator and I honestly feel the baby wasn’t stillborn, but I think the blood is on that mothers hands. All my opinions and all conjecture.

I'm with you.

 

[Winterhike]

I mean I think we do know though. Because he wasn't informed and he wasn't able to make a choice and he wasn't there when she gave birth and got rid of the evidence.

He bears no blame for what happened because he wasn't a part of it.

There have been cases where the boyfriend is involved and both conspire to kill the baby. Both have been prosecuted. Amy Grossberg and Brian Peterson comes to mind.

They also claimed the baby was stillborn. That's a common claim in these cases, from what I've seen. But the body in that one was found in time and it was clear that the child died from being shaken and head injuries.

They each served about two years.

I mean "we don't know" in the sense that since he wasn't informed, we don't know what his reaction would have been, not that we don't know if he deserves any blame or shares any legal responsibility (I agree he doesn't, since he wasn't given the chance to make any choices at all).

 

[zea mays]

I agree again. I think there was some element of denial but not to the degree that she didn't realize she was pregnant or that there would be a baby. I think her denial was more about timing, like that she thought she had more time to figure out what to do, and perhaps that she is used to exerting terrible control over her own body and thought she could continue to do that in this case.

I also think her understanding of what her actual options were was abnormal and affected by her own pathology and family environment. A reasonable person (even a very young one) may have made other choices even if they did not want the baby and did not believe their parents would accept her. She could have driven with the baby to leave it at a hospital or fire station or any number of places (she had her own car). She could have run away and then returned after the birth. She could have asked the doctor to help her. She could have woken up her parents in the middle of the night, when the obvious emergency situation would probably have overridden their disapproval at least in that moment.

But I don't think she was operating reasonably, because apparently none of these options seemed better to her than giving birth all by herself, possibly killing her baby or allowing it to die, and then leaving it in the backyard grave. Honestly I think the backyard grave (and the return to the same medical practice and even the text to her mother from the gym) are all evidence that she had some level of emotional regret about all this. Again, she had a car and could have put the baby somewhere where nobody would have known it was hers. She did not have to mention a thing about the change in her belly to anyone.

I think the real question at trial is how criminal was her level of unreasonableness, vs. how pathological.

And the bold kind of ties in with the "flaunting" of the pregnancy. Wearing bikinis, wearing the form-fitting prom dress, etc. Pushing the boundaries on how far the secret keepers will keep the secret. Begging them in a way to deal with the reality of what was going on.

What grounds are the defense using to try to keep the diary out? The doctor can testify but her diary stays out? That would be weird.

Maybe she was trying to get her parents' help. Yeah I do think it's possible she was somehow asking for help and wanting them to rescue her and support her in this. Maybe subconsciously. But of course they didn't because that's not who they are. IMO.

It's all sorts of Freudian nightmare. She was basically telling her mom she got rid of the "problem" after the problem wasn't acknowledged and she wasn't given her parents' love and support to deal with it normally. She did what was expected of her. Keep quiet and lose the thing that made her fat.

Her statement to her boyfriend is similarly revealing. So disturbing. "Last night was like the worst ever and I didn't go to sleep until 5:30 but I feel soooo much better this morning and I'm happy".

I agree about the diary. The argument is that most of it from her junior high years and about her eating disorders - nothing relevant to the trial.

It's all very horrifying in retrospect. She's begging them to see her, they're ignoring her, she's reaching out (physically to her mom in the interview, even) and trying to be seen. So sad that the ultimate victim in all this is the poor innocent baby.

It also seems to match with the general obsession with weight and appearance and shame in that family. It seemed like a subtle and probably typical putdown. "Look at you, you pig. Guess you won't be able to continue enjoying that food you aren't supposed to eat, glutton."

I thought that was a particularly cruel thing to bring up.

 

[gitana1]

And the bold kind of ties in with the "flaunting" of the pregnancy. Wearing bikinis, wearing the form-fitting prom dress, etc. Pushing the boundaries on how far the secret keepers will keep the secret. Begging them in a way to deal with the reality of what was going on.



I agree about the diary. The argument is that most of it from her junior high years and about her eating disorders - nothing relevant to the trial.

It's all very horrifying in retrospect. She's begging them to see her, they're ignoring her, she's reaching out (physically to her mom in the interview, even) and trying to be seen. So sad that the ultimate victim in all this is the poo innocent baby.



I thought that was a particularly cruel thing to bring up.

Yes. We can clearly see the road that led to a dead baby. I do feel sorry for her. It seems her identity was annihilated by parents for whom nothing less than perfection was acceptable. She was cornered in a sense.

At the same time, she was sort of eyes wide open. She did research. She was informed. And at what point do we hold someone accountable when they were twisted by their parents but have now become them.

Woe betide any baby if she has another child some day. I hope she never does.

 

[Winterhike]

And the bold kind of ties in with the "flaunting" of the pregnancy. Wearing bikinis, wearing the form-fitting prom dress, etc. Pushing the boundaries on how far the secret keepers will keep the secret. Begging them in a way to deal with the reality of what was going on.



I agree about the diary. The argument is that most of it from her junior high years and about her eating disorders - nothing relevant to the trial.

It's all very horrifying in retrospect. She's begging them to see her, they're ignoring her, she's reaching out (physically to her mom in the interview, even) and trying to be seen. So sad that the ultimate victim in all this is the poo innocent baby.


I thought that was a particularly cruel thing to bring up.

I'm super curious about the diary now. If it is mostly about the eating disorders, you'd think the defense would not try to keep it out, since her medical history might be part of why the jury could come to see her as less culpable or more sympathetic.

 

[zea mays]

Yes. We can clearly see the road that led to a dead baby. I do feel sorry for her. It seems her identity was annihilated by parents for whom nothing less than perfection was acceptable. She was cornered in a sense.

At the same time, she was sort of eyes wide open. She did research. She was informed. And at what point do we hold someone accountable when they were twisted by their parents but have now become them.

Woe betide any baby if she has another child some day. I hope she never does.

Oh, she needs to be held accountable. I hope that they can prove murder, but I'm really doubting it. Beyond that, I hope that there is some punishment beyond more home confinement.

Sadly, I think she'll marry this Brandon boy, have a couple kids and likely subject them to exactly what she was subjected to. Sad.

I'm super curious about the diary now. If it is mostly about the eating disorders, you'd think the defense would not try to keep it out, since her medical history might be part of why the jury could come to see her as less culpable or more sympathetic.

Me, too! My guess is there's lots about mama richardson in there that the family doesn't want out there.

 

[killarney rose]

She is a child, Chris Watts is a grown man. I don't think that is even a close comparison. I am more sympathetic to cases like this. It's not just feeling for what she went through, it's what cases like hers mean to other women that miscarry or have stillbirths. She gave birth alone in a bathroom with no medical care. No prenatal care. I'm surprised she didn't die. There are birth complications in even the most perfect pregnancies. You could do everything right and one day the fetal heartbeat vanishes or the umbilical cord strangles your child as it leaves the womb.
Chris Watts didn't ask for his parents. He was a husband and father and killed his family. Nothing died on the way out of his body.

But she did those things by her own choice. Help was available.all she had to do was reach out for it.

 

[cherrymeg]

I just want to say that conversations like this are the reason that WS is my preferred place to discuss cases like this. The conversation is mostly civil, rational and fact-based even when people disagree. I enjoy having a place to talk that doesn't devolve into emotional name-calling.



I agree completely. Also, she had no problem telling her MD about burying a stillborn, I feel like a previous pregnancy would've been recorded. There were no previous pregnancies in the documentation from the MD's office.



She may not have used the good towels. She was in labor for quite some time (and did state that the thought that might be the cause of her pain) and maybe grabbed some shop towels or cleaning towels earlier that day.



I cannot wait to see the search and text evidence. I also really hope the diary will come in.




I'm really not sure what you mean by the bolded. Are you stating that women who have stillborn babies should just bury them in their yards? And that this case will make that impossible?



The bolded just sparked a thought. Do you think BSR wanted her family to ask her about it? That if they just asked she would play dumb and they would find out together? I know the fact that email came and she denied it her mom kinds of makes the answer to this idea no, but that happened after she knew for sure. Just a thought...



I get your point in general, but in this case, I don't think this makes any sense. There's no evidence that this boy even knew there was a baby until months after it was disposed of. What possible part could he play in this? His life has been changed. He will forever be connected to a murder trial.



This is far too true.

If bolded something I didn't mean to. I'm not advocating we treat stillborn babies like dead pet hamsters. There was an attempt to charge a woman who miscarried after being shot in the stomach with manslaughter of her 5 month old fetus. Women have a right to live their lives while pregnant. Skylar could have easily had a stillbirth or lost consciousness for a minute or two and because she was alone there was no one to clear the airway or to make sure the baby wasn't in the toilet during that time. Obviously she didn't do anything to make sure her pregnancy was healthy and was in denial, but if she is punished for not seeking prenatal care or going to a hospital could that set a precedent for mothers who choose home birth or more natural care options and have a miscarriage or women that might not know they are pregnant until they miscarry? What if you are put on bed rest and you move something, pick up and hold you toddler or drive to the store and miscarry, is that manslaughter? A crime? There is enough guilt with miscarriages and stillbirths with women wondering if they could have done something different. Policing women's bodies can become a slippery thing.

 

[zea mays]

If bolded something I didn't mean to. I'm not advocating we treat stillborn babies like dead pet hamsters. There was an attempt to charge a woman who miscarried after being shot in the stomach with manslaughter of her 5 month old fetus. Women have a right to live their lives while pregnant. Skylar could have easily had a stillbirth or lost consciousness for a minute or two and because she was alone there was no one to clear the airway or to make sure the baby wasn't in the toilet during that time. Obviously she didn't do anything to make sure her pregnancy was healthy and was in denial, but if she is punished for not seeking prenatal care or going to a hospital could that set a precedent for mothers who choose home birth or more natural care options and have a miscarriage or women that might not know they are pregnant until they miscarry? What if you are put on bed rest and you move something, pick up and hold you toddler or drive to the store and miscarry, is that manslaughter? A crime? There is enough guilt with miscarriages and stillbirths with women wondering if they could have done something different. Policing women's bodies can become a slippery thing.

I bolded it to indicate what I was questioning. That's what I meant, sorry!

Yes, all those things could have happened. She should have called 911 and then woken her parents. I've stated that several times in this thread. Had she done those things and there were no signs that SHE killed her child (ie the medical facts showed the baby was stillborn) then she would've been fine - no charges. This isn't a case about miscarriage, lack of prenatal care, or child endangerment during pregnancy. It's a case about a woman who birthed and then disposed of her baby with no witnesses and then claimed it was stillborn months later when it's pretty much impossible to determine if that's true or not. She got herself into this mess by not calling for help immediately after birth - we've been discussing all of the mitigating factors around that choice, but it was her choice. I'm 1000% fine policing the actions of a woman with a born child. The baby was no longer a part of that woman's body so we're not policing a woman's body here at all.

 

[BeckyF]

Not even confiding in a friend is sad. Hiding things from your parents makes sense but not having a single friend you trust to say "what if I'm pregnant" must be isolating. It might also make it seem less real. If you look pregnant and have a best friend they should ask you if you could be.

It is sad she felt she had no one to confide in. If you grow up in an environment where sharing problems or seeking help with your problems is not supported, it is understandable. JMO.

 

[cherrymeg]

When BSR mentioned wanting to work with kids after college to the police, I just thought "she can't be in touch with reality". She knew why she was in the police station. I don't think she was being manipulative or lying I think she has some serious issues. Her text to her mom, implies her mom does care about her weight and wants her to be thin. Her uterus hadn't gone back to it's normal size and she probably was retaining water from supporting another life in her body. That's a good postpartum stomach and I don't know how if her mother say her before and after how she wouldn't know.

 

[BeckyF]

I wouldn't let my kid talk to police without an attorney. If he wasn't able to speak to her before the first interview and say "Ask or a Lawyer", the dad should have hired one on her behalf. Weirdly that interview/interrogation made me feel sorry for Skylar. She seemed to want to please everyone, the cop, her parents particularly her mom. The female officer hugged her at one point and said you need to get counseling or something to that effect. I thought she hesitated and was about to say lawyer but caught herself.

I agree that she was trying to please everyone. IMO her parents were trying to punish her and chastise her as much as possible in that interview room. Did they know their conversation was on video? Why were the parents trying to brow beat her? No wonder she didn't tell them about the pregnancy. In her mind it was better to make the problem disappear. I'm not making a judgement on her guilt or innocence. IMO.

 

[kahluacream]

I find myself with incredibly conflicted feelings about this case. I have to wonder what kind of mental state a young woman would have to be in to delude herself into believing that she's not pregnant when she's nearly full-term. I'm fully capable of denial but this is of outrageous proportions.

I vacillate between seeing her as a monster and seeing her as a severely damaged young woman.

I keep going back to the doctor appointments. If you know you're pregnant and you plan to rid yourself of the child upon birth, why would you go to a ob/gyn in the first place? You certainly don't need birth control at the moment and you only risk revealing the pregnancy you're trying to hide. And then having revealed it, she goes back to the very same medical practice to seek birth control after burying her baby in the backyard. I can't see these as the actions of someone who fully comprehended her circumstances either before or after the birth.

 

[MyBelle]

These explanations might sound like BS excuses to many people, but BSR's mental illness, underdeveloped prefrontal cortex due to her age (and possibly malnutrition), and arguably neglectful parenting are still part of the equation. What she did is still wrong (whether she killed the baby, neglected it, or just hid its truly stillborn body), but I believe her state of mind is still something the jury must consider.

ITA. BSR's mental illness began when she was a minor and apparently her parents failed to get medical intervention for her eating disorder. While a minor, she got pregnant, didn't receive any kind of prenatal care and an unattended birth resulted. Prenatal care is for the health of the mother as well as the child and I'm betting BSR is still on her parents' health insurance so there really is no excuse. The poor baby never had a chance in that household.

JMO

 

[cherrymeg]

I agree that she was trying to please everyone. IMO her parents were trying to punish her and chastise her as much as possible in that interview room. Did they know their conversation was on video? Why were the parents trying to brow beat her? No wonder she didn't tell them about the pregnancy. In her mind it was better to make the problem disappear. I'm not making a judgement on her guilt or innocence. IMO.

The dad seemed genuinely surprised and obviously upset. About two months had passed between the birth and the police coming to their home. If he had no suspicions of pregnancy that would be a lot to process. I wondered if they knew they were being taped. It doesn't seem like a discussion you should have in a police station. Skylar seemed more terrified of her parents than jail or the police. I think if it had been born crying she might have tried hiding her in her bedroom or she might have left it on a doorstep.
I think after that last push things get hazy for a few minutes. I had an epidural and I remember thinking it feels like you have just taken a huge poop. She might have been on the toilet for that reason. My kid was pressing on my lungs and stomach. It was like "wow, I can breath". You can relax. She said something about the baby being cold what if it was in water. What if she relaxed over the toilet?