GUILTY OH - Johnny Clarke, 21, & Lisa Straub, 20, murdered, Springfield Twp, 31 Jan 2011

[oceanblueeyes]

You are much more sympathetic than I am. If you don't want to bury your kids you do everything you can to raise them up right and ensure they do not become a criminal menace that threatens others or associates with that type.

I do feel sorry for Lisa's parents, they were likely overly indulging but with the best of intentions. I think everyone agrees this was NOT random, it had something to do with Johnny. He was the catalyst, either by angering someone or talking about the "safe" or dealing drugs or all of the above.

I try not to pick and chose which victim's parents to like or dislike. I try to remain neutral since I really have no true understanding what each of them are suffering. Even very imperfect parents loves very imperfect children.

And while I don't 'think' I would have handle it the way Matlee has done..I have no right to criticize her, imo.

There is no assurance that a good parent can prevent this from happening to one of their children. Bad things happen to good kids too. But yes, it is best to raise them with a moral upbringing and character, but still it does not protect anyone from being murdered. Sadly we see many innocent and good people murdered when a murderer happened to cross their paths.

Since I am not privy to any of the actual evidence LE has... I truly do not know what happened in this case or who the perpetrators may be. So therefore; I will not place blame on one of the deceased murder victims, but that is just me, and everyone is entitled to their own opinions and feelings of course.

All I know is, no one deserved to die like this by the hands of another.

It just seems like to me if there was a link between Johnny and the perps LE would have found the suspect or suspects by now. Cases where links to the perp and victim exist are far easier to solve than an unknown with no linkage whatsoever to the victims.


JMOO

 

[goldiegirl]

There are many reasons why I believed this would have been solved by now. Most have already been touched on, and I apologize if this has, too, but were there cameras anywhere in the neighborhood? From what I understand, this was a nice neighborhood, so I'm surprised there either weren't some surveillance cameras placed by the subdivision or that a few homeowners on the street didn't have their own private cameras that might have caught something. I'm not sure how busy the street was in front of the house, but I'm sure it wasn't terribly busy, and it seems like it would be extremely helpful to just see which cars were driving down the street during this time period, if nothing else.

When something like this happens in a neighborhood or a public area, I always wish there were cameras around, just how JVM says, "Put a camera on every street corner if it's going to save somebody's life." However, it's obviously every homeowner's personal choice whether or not to do so. My own parents' home was broken into, and they have yet to get security cameras. For the record, my husband and I don't use them either at this point, since we rent in an apartment complex, and who knows whether or not we'll get them when we have a house, although I plan to. It's just one of those things that is SUCH an easy answer and would help tremendously in solving or preventing crime, yet it takes a lot to get people to actually do it for some reason. Again, I don't know what all this entails, expense-wise or otherwise, and I'm not speaking from the perspective of someone who uses them, so all this is is a thought, and it of course applies to me, too.

 

[Sonya610]

Again, I don't know what all this entails, expense-wise or otherwise, and I'm not speaking from the perspective of someone who uses them, so all this is is a thought, and it of course applies to me, too.

Camera systems are not that expensive, $500 to $800 for a home system plus installation. Cameras can deter crime to some extent but not much, and their ability to find perps is also pretty limited (in a case like this it would no doubt help but most of the time if the perps wear masks it doesn't help much at all). Plus if these guys spent a lot of time looking for a safe they would have probably been smart enough to find the camera's dvr and steal that too (which point all video is lost).

Most all convenience stores have camera systems (by law in some states) yet still most of the robbers are not found due to the footage, it makes for good backup evidence if they are found by other means but there are so many robberies and so much video tape only the most extreme crimes end up being publicized.

 

[Sonya610]

It just seems like to me if there was a link between Johnny and the perps LE would have found the suspect or suspects by now. Cases where links to the perp and victim exist are far easier to solve than an unknown with no linkage whatsoever to the victims.

There probably is a link, but if there were lots of questionable people in their circle and the link was not direct it can be very hard to prove. The LE either needs physical evidence that is strong enough to get a conviction OR they need to find someone who will talk.

I know around here I am always amazed by really heinous murders, and then the perps get caught because they bragged to their friends and family and someone turned them in! In this case the killers are likely a bit more seasoned and they are smart enough to NOT brag about it. I think whomever did this has done similar things before and they are pretty careful.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

There probably is a link, but if there were lots of questionable people in their circle and the link was not direct it can be very hard to prove. The LE either needs physical evidence that is strong enough to get a conviction OR they need to find someone who will talk.

I know around here I am always amazed by really heinous murders, and then the perps get caught because they bragged to their friends and family and someone turned them in! In this case the killers are likely a bit more seasoned and they are smart enough to NOT brag about it. I think whomever did this has done similar things before and they are pretty careful.

You are certainly right. If two or more are involved then it is no longer a secret. A true secret can only be kept if only one person knows the truth. Criminals sometimes do have loose lips and that can sink them eventually.

Unfortunately we see quite often that those familiar with the victims may not be of pristine character but yet weren't involved in the crimes whatsoever.

What I don't want to see happen in this case is for LE to get tunnel vision which can severely cloud their judgment. They must look at all possible motives and potential suspects out there. Looking at those who may be known to the victims (both) and those who have no connection at all, but may have a pattern of doing robberies when they went into a home they thought was unoccupied.

Lisa and Johnny deserve no less than a fair unbiased investigation, imo.

And I have seen this happen before where LE was so sure it had to be someone known to the victims, and it turned out that the real perpetrators did not even know the victims they heinously murdered. I have seen cases like that grow cold and remain unsolved for many years until a new fresh set of eyes looked at the case from all angles and not just from one angle only.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Camera systems are not that expensive, $500 to $800 for a home system plus installation. Cameras can deter crime to some extent but not much, and their ability to find perps is also pretty limited (in a case like this it would no doubt help but most of the time if the perps wear masks it doesn't help much at all). Plus if these guys spent a lot of time looking for a safe they would have probably been smart enough to find the camera's dvr and steal that too (which point all video is lost).

Most all convenience stores have camera systems (by law in some states) yet still most of the robbers are not found due to the footage, it makes for good backup evidence if they are found by other means but there are so many robberies and so much video tape only the most extreme crimes end up being publicized.

I have a lot of friends who are in law enforcement. They tell me if I want to deter a break in to get a big dog that stays outside.

They told me if I wanted a chance to capture WHO did the break in AFTER it has already occurred then to get a surveillance system.

They also said that alarm systems do not protect from break ins. By the time the police arrive on scene the perps have already stolen the goods and left. The perps have become masters at being able to get in and out of a dwelling with stolen goods within a few short minutes.

IMO

 

[Sonya610]

I have a lot of friends who are in law enforcement. They tell me if I want to deter a break in to get a big dog that stays outside.

I have always relied on the big dog home security method (and of course firearms) but never as outside dogs. Dogs kept inside are more effective, it is easier for criminals to poison or otherwise harm an outdoor dog. A protective dog guarding the inside of HIS house is a lot more worrisome.

Thing about protective dogs is they are not machines, their protective dominant personalities mean they don't just sit around quietly and then act up when a burglar arrives (sure there are exceptions but don't count on it), their owners need to like and be able to tolerate their quirks and demanding ways especially for the first 2-3 years.

I have a 120 lb Anatolian, they were bred by Turks for 2 thousand years to guard livestock (think Turner and Hooch only prettier). I have no worries about breakins or anything else with him here, he also goes most everywhere with me in the car. Course he is first and foremost a companion dog (and he can be a handful) yet the feeling of safety he provides is wonderful. You never think "did i lock the back door, or what's that odd sound, a home intruder?" Those thoughts disappear, when you hear an odd sound in the middle of the night you just think "uh oh what is he getting into?"

 

[goldiegirl]

Just a little more on the camera discussion...

I should not have said that they can prevent/deter crime. Like others have mention, it's not true.

My BA is in criminal justice, and one of my favorite books that we read in one of my classes was Burglars on the Job by Wright and Decker. The authors conducted their study by interviewing a sample of convicted burglars (I believe it was between 80-100) about their strategies.

The book addresses alarm systems, dogs and other possible deterrents and basically did find that the only effective deterrent is dogs, if I remember correctly. However, "Beware of Dog" signs outside didn't seem to do much, so the perps have to actually enter the house, hear the dog barking or see the dog through the window to be too afraid to enter. Similarly, "This House is Protected by ADT Security" doesn't do anything, either. Burglars are aware that many people who put up these signs do not have either dogs or security systems in the first place.

I guess my camera comment had a little more behind it that didn't really pertain to this case. Cameras CAN deter crime in a way, but it's true that these are not the types of cameras we are talking about, and this is usually either only when the potential perps are aware of the presence of the cameras or when someone is watching the live footage (for example department store security watching for shoplifters). I babysit for a family who is open about the fact that they have "nanny cams". They tell each babysitter that they have these cameras. Who knows whether or not they actually do, but the possibility that cameras are there does deter potential crime from babysitters, but again, this is not the same thing, so I should not have stated that cameras would have really had any potential to deter in this case.

I am also aware that surveillance photos are often grainy and difficult to make out and that perps who are captured on camera often aren't caught anyway. I guess I just thought there might be a slight chance. Even if a photo was grainy, I had hope that if a neighbor's camera even so much as captured a car that was relatively easy to identify turning into the Straub's driveway it might have helped a little. I guess personal surveillance cameras would not be focused that far out into the street anyway, as they're only meant to protect the owners' houses.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I have always relied on the big dog home security method (and of course firearms) but never as outside dogs. Dogs kept inside are more effective, it is easier for criminals to poison or otherwise harm an outdoor dog. A protective dog guarding the inside of HIS house is a lot more worrisome.

Thing about protective dogs is they are not machines, their protective dominant personalities mean they don't just sit around quietly and then act up when a burglar arrives (sure there are exceptions but don't count on it), their owners need to like and be able to tolerate their quirks and demanding ways especially for the first 2-3 years.

I have a 120 lb Anatolian, they were bred by Turks for 2 thousand years to guard livestock (think Turner and Hooch only prettier). I have no worries about break ins or anything else with him here, he also goes most everywhere with me in the car. Course he is first and foremost a companion dog (and he can be a handful) yet the feeling of safety he provides is wonderful. You never think "did i lock the back door, or what's that odd sound, a home intruder?" Those thoughts disappear, when you hear an odd sound in the middle of the night you just think "uh oh what is he getting into?"

I am only going by what I have been told by LE over the years. They have said an outside dog is not only menacing (cowardly robbers/burglars are usually afraid of dogs and being bitten). Outside dogs will raise he** and they will not stop until they think the threat is gone. Rarely do I ever hear of a burglar or robber poisoning an outside dog. I have heard of people who cruelly kill animals by poisoning them just for the sport of it which makes me sick to my stomach.

Signs are also good "Beware-Bad Dog" etc. They also advise even if a family doesnt own a dog to put a very large dog bowl out in plain sight. That makes the perps think the dog is out on the property somewhere.

Now of course an inside dog will alert too. I have both an outside dog (Timber-wolf-Nikita) and an inside dog. Maggie Mae our inside dog does not bark during the night so if she did we would certainly sit up in a full alert. She does bark ferociously if someone she doesn't know tries to enter our home though. I have had to lock her up before because she can become rather aggressive to delivery men, like Fed-Ex-UPS drivers, etc.

We do investigate if Nikita keeps barking and yes, we too have firearms.

I have also had many strangers who would not get out of their vehicle when they see Nikita at the fence. They always ask me if it is safe to get out and can she jump the fence? I never say it is safe. I tell them as long as I am out there I can handle her. Just her size and looks scares the tee total heck out of them. I never tell them her true personality though (smile) but she does charge the fence when strangers approach. Just marking her territory.

imo

 

[Quiche]

Is it possible that the perpetrators were already in the home with consent (divvying up some drugs)? Then at the time of Tiff's call the tone was changed and became aggressive-- her call acting as a signal to execute the plan of attack? :waitasec:

Tiffany placing herself at the house really bothers me, an ineffectual check on them means, imo, she could have been the perps ride out of there. all jmo

 

[Sonya610]

I am only going by what I have been told by LE over the years. They have said an outside dog is not only menacing (cowardly robbers/burglars are usually afraid of dogs and being bitten). Outside dogs will raise he** and they will not stop until they think the threat is gone.

Protective breeds will bark and guard whether they are inside or out, little foofy housedogs not so much as they are not as geared towards watching and don't notice things as quickly when they are inside.

And yes outside dogs will bark more, but that often means barking at all sorts of random things especially if they get bored. I come from a rescue background and we never placed dogs in outside only homes for the dogs sake. My boy is constantly on the alert (even while sleeping, he perks at every car and every odd sound), he seems quite mellow but he will become utterly ferocious in a heartbeat if he feels the need and his bite is worse than his bark.

 

[goldiegirl]

From what I've learned and read, dog bowls and such are much more effective than the signs. Most burglars (which are different from robbers, because burglars do not expect anyone to be home) would be deterred by dogs, but in home invasion cases, robbery cases, etc., the suspects can just shoot the dog, whether inside or outside.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

From what I've learned and read, dog bowls and such are much more effective than the signs. Most burglars (which are different from robbers, because burglars do not expect anyone to be home) would be deterred by dogs, but in home invasion cases, robbery cases, etc., the suspects can just shoot the dog, whether inside or outside.

In all truthfulness you are probably right, goldie.

We all like to think that our pets are so bonded to us that they would fight to their deaths to protect us but I have read about so many murder cases where there were up to three big dogs in the home and the poor dogs were just as fearful as the victims and cowered in a corner or were found under a table shaking like a leaf. They can sense danger just like a human can.

So really dogs are very unpredictable just like human beings and there is no certainty how they will act in moments of threats of harm to them or their owners.

But burglars and robbers are fearful of dogs. My LE friends will tell me when a burglar or robber cases the street they will pick one where they think the homeowner does not have dogs. That is why they recommend that the people put the large dog bowl outside where it can be readily seen.

I would fear an outside dog more because if I was a robber/burglar (which I'm not lol)... I would know I would have to get by them first to even get inside the home. I'd pick a home where it looked like no dogs at all were there.

I know when to pay attention to Nikita's barking and when she is just barking at a cat in the neighbor's yard. She barks very little at night anyway since we live in a very quiet neighborhood.

IMO

 

[Sonya610]

In all truthfulness you are probably right, goldie.

We all like to think that our pets are so bonded to us that they would fight to their deaths to protect us but I have read about so many murder cases where there were up to three big dogs in the home and the poor dogs were just as fearful as the victims and cowered in a corner or were found under a table shaking like a leaf.

Comes down to breeding and temperament, I have absolutely NO DOUBT that my boy would kill or die to defend me. No question whatsoever. He also won't listen to a word I say if he thinks there is a real threat (though he does factor in my opinions, they are just that, opinions, his job is to protect not follow my orders). He is very bonded but it isn't just about emotion, it is about breeding and genetics and his mission to protect "his flock" at all costs.

If robbers want to get past a really protective dog well bred dog they need to have a really serious prize, I wouldn't trust a gun against a fast very aggressive dog unless the dog was behind a fence or at a very far distance. Well of course I could never dream of hurting a dog, would only take such action as required in defense of my family or myself. The point is no robber wants to mess with a fast aggressive skillful dog unless the prize is more than worth the risk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGQWskxxLV0

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Comes down to breeding and temperament, I have absolutely NO DOUBT that my boy would kill or die to defend me. No question whatsoever. He also won't listen to a word I say if he thinks there is a real threat (though he does factor in my opinions, they are just that, opinions, his job is to protect not follow my orders). He is very bonded but it isn't just about emotion, it is about breeding and genetics and his mission to protect "his flock" at all costs.

If robbers want to get past a really protective dog well bred dog they need to have a really serious prize, I wouldn't trust a gun against a fast very aggressive dog unless the dog was behind a fence or at a very far distance. Well of course I could never dream of hurting a dog, would only take such action as required in defense of my family or myself. The point is no robber wants to mess with a fast aggressive skillful dog unless the prize is more than worth the risk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGQWskxxLV0

I would trust my weapon over the temperaments of a dog which can be unpredictable.

I would never ever have an animal for the sole purpose to protect. I have too many small grandchildren running around playing at one time. I would never want an aggressive dog either or one who has been bred to be. Dogs can get wrong signals and I would never want that to happen.

That is why we always make sure we lock Maggie up in another room if a stranger visits us and she isn't even a big dog but I don't want any of my dogs harming others. All we want them to do is to alert us if something is amiss...then we will take over from there and both of them would certainly do that.

I suppose I could have trained Nikita to attack and protect but that is not the reason we have her. She is just an awesome highly intelligent beautiful dog who is loving just like her owners are loving to her. I wouldn't change her for the world whether she ever saved my life or not. But she does look foreboding even though she is not... so strangers are fearful of her even though they have no reason to be and I never tell them she isn't dangerous.

IMO

 

[mushyb]

Still can't believe there has been no arrest. they must be keeping everything on the down low, no one commits the perfect murder, especially two murders. hope an arrest comes soon!

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Still can't believe there has been no arrest. they must be keeping everything on the down low, no one commits the perfect murder, especially two murders. hope an arrest comes soon!

I really really wish that was true, mushy, but the truth is about 34% of murder cases are never solved even with all the advance forensics we have available today.

It makes me think they are not able to link anyone to these crimes, but I still hold out hope they will get the break they need.

IMO

 

[Norwegian]

Still nothing new here?

 

[Norwegian]

And the "RIP Johnny" Facebook page... is it J.Clake's mom who runs it?

 

[burbqueen]

IMO this was about drugs. I've been reading lots of info and lets just say that some people are painting this situation with roses. IMO there is more to this and I dont believe it is a serial killer or just a random robbery.