OH - Ohio State University Rampage, 28 November 2016

[human]

I agree dotr. Artan had no intentions of surviving his attack. HIs intent was to be a martyr and take out as many "infidels" as he could along the way. He said this himself.

And why is it when a terrorist says in his own words, in posts and manifestos, and dying declarations, that he is a terrorist committing an act in the name of radical islam, so many media and apologists immediately and reflexively say, "No! He didn't actually mean what he said! He did it for another reason! He was depressed or something!" :gaah:

I will be very interested to hear how Artan and his family managed to qualify as refugees. They fled Somalia, and had been in Pakistan for 7 years. Generally, that would disqualify someone from claiming refugee status and asylum to come to the U.S. Their first port of entry would have been Pakistan, and after 7 years there, would no longer qualify. But there are various loopholes that can be exploited to make applicants appear to be more eligible, and the "U.S. refugee importation industry" (religious non-profits) is well-versed in how to do that. IMO, this family should never have come to the U.S. under any kind of "refugee" status.

There will be much more coming out about this in future weeks, IMO.

I think all of the religious based U.S. "charities" who are so extraordinarily well compensated by the federal government for their work importing "refugees" is going to be given much more well-deserved scrutiny. I think we will be seeing a lot of those federal programs substantially changing over the next year or so. JMO.

Just as with the profoundly flawed fiancee visa program that allowed the San Bernadino terrorists to exploit that immigration weakness, there are serious and pervasive flaws within the religious non-profit "refugee industry" that need to be addressed. JMO.

They were in a displaced person's camp,

Some of the Hmong refugees had languished in displaced person's camps for 20 years. They were promised help from the US govt because they helped the Americans in Vietnam. I will refrain on commenting on living in a displaced person's camp for 20 years

 

[human]

I agree dotr. Artan had no intentions of surviving his attack. HIs intent was to be a martyr and take out as many "infidels" as he could along the way. He said this himself.

And why is it when a terrorist says in his own words, in posts and manifestos, and dying declarations, that he is a terrorist committing an act in the name of radical islam, so many media and apologists immediately and reflexively say, "No! He didn't actually mean what he said! He did it for another reason! He was depressed or something!" :gaah:

I will be very interested to hear how Artan and his family managed to qualify as refugees. They fled Somalia, and had been in Pakistan for 7 years. Generally, that would disqualify someone from claiming refugee status and asylum to come to the U.S. Their first port of entry would have been Pakistan, and after 7 years there, would no longer qualify. But there are various loopholes that can be exploited to make applicants appear to be more eligible, and the "U.S. refugee importation industry" (religious non-profits) is well-versed in how to do that. IMO, this family should never have come to the U.S. under any kind of "refugee" status.

There will be much more coming out about this in future weeks, IMO.

I think all of the religious based U.S. "charities" who are so extraordinarily well compensated by the federal government for their work importing "refugees" is going to be given much more well-deserved scrutiny. I think we will be seeing a lot of those federal programs substantially changing over the next year or so. JMO.

Just as with the profoundly flawed fiancee visa program that allowed the San Bernadino terrorists to exploit that immigration weakness, there are serious and pervasive flaws within the religious non-profit "refugee industry" that need to be addressed. JMO.

I imagine the religiious charities are following their ideas of religion. Take care of the poor. Golden rule. That kind of stuff.

 

[bluesneakers]

The federal programs available include:

∙ Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) formerly known as AFDC
∙ Medicaid
∙ Food Stamps
∙ Public Housing
∙ Supplemental Security Income (SSI)
∙ Social Security Disability Insurance
∙ Administration on Developmental Disabilities (ADD) (direct services only)
∙ Child Care and Development Fund
∙ Independent Living Program
∙ Job Opportunities for Low Income Individuals (JOLI)
∙ Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program (LIHEAP)
∙ Postsecondary Education Loans and Grants
∙ Refugee Assistance Programs
∙ Title IV Foster Care and Adoption Assistance Payments (if parents are ⌠qualified immigrants – refugees, asylees, etc)
∙ Title XX Social Services Block Grant Funds

https://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/orr/fy_2009_annual_report_to_congress.pdf

How many of those was he receiving? Why would he have been getting SSDI?

What was his annual income? Several of those require a person's income to be a certain level below the poverty level, and do we know if he had any children?

I just think listing every program available is kind of pointless when we have no idea what his income was or what he was receiving. Was he not working a paid internship or part-time job?

I'm not defending his actions, only pointing out it's not helpful to say what assistance he may have been receiving. What difference does it make?

JMO, etc.

 

[bluesneakers]

The bigger question is why some injustice collectors turn really violent. That includes ones with mental illness.

There are many people who are injustice collectors out there who do not lash out violently.

That would be helpful, I agree. Of course one problem is how do we know which ones will turn violent until after they do? And when most of them don't survive the incidents it makes it even more difficult. Not like we can interview them and ask what the final straw was. Combing through their pasts provides clues, but, from what I've seen they're too general to say "This guy is definitely going to turn violent but this one will probably not." Nevermind the 1st and 4th amendments, and therapists not being able to report "hunches."

Maybe it would be helpful if injustice collector were its own separate entry in the DSM rather than tagging along with with other diagnoses.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

I worked with families in poverty for almost 40 years. Just for a couple of examples-- you can stay on welfare for five years. You must be searching for a job and prove it.

School is not free proven by the fact that so many went to those for profit universities and owe thousands they cannot repay.

Refugees do not have the 5 yr limit on welfare. They fall under different regulations. This family had 3 apartments, a few vehicles, sons in higher education. How do they afford all that?

 

[bluesneakers]

I imagine the religiious charities are following their ideas of religion. Take care of the poor. Golden rule. That kind of stuff.

I know several families who are sponsoring refugees through their churches, as well as some who used churches as more match-making services. In other words some people of specific religions and members of local parishes are hosting refugee families while other unaffiliated families are doing the same.

My friends in Idaho went out of their way to bring in as many families as they could handle. I don't think they're forcing them to attend their churches but I know they're doing a lot of work to make the families feel welcome.

IME churches and religious organizations get tax breaks but they are not well compensated by the government. Most are self-sufficient and rely on parishioners (and thrift shops ) to keep them going. However I have limited experience with the mega-churches in the South.

 

[katydid23]

How many of those was he receiving? Why would he have been getting SSDI?

What was his annual income? Several of those require a person's income to be a certain level below the poverty level, and do we know if he had any children?

I just think listing every program available is kind of pointless when we have no idea what his income was or what he was receiving. Was he not working a paid internship or part-time job?

I'm not defending his actions, only pointing out it's not helpful to say what assistance he may have been receiving. What difference does it make?

JMO, etc.

What difference does it make? I think it makes a lot of difference how we are dealing with the refugees we are inviting in to this country. If we gave his family the generous benefits that we routinely offer, then it is even more egregious that his reaction was so violent and unwarranted, imo.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/feb/24/islamist-terror-groups-target-minnesota-somali-ref/

“That translates into the way Somali refugees have been received here they’ve been given a secure environment, housing, education, health care, perhaps even some minimum income to sustain them until they can stand on their own feet. That’s all provided by Minnesota,” said Mr. Samatar, who has tracked the State Department’s refugee program.


In addition to its generous welfare subsidies, Minnesota also has a number of charitable organizations that contract with the State Department like Lutheran Social Services, Catholic Charities, and World Relief Minnesota. Those organizations agree to help the Somali refugees learn English, get health care, find housing and gradually learn to adopt the U.S. as home.
“
...snippped...

Even though Minnesota has a good job market, that doesn’t seem to have translated into jobs for the Somali refugees. Minnesota’s state demographer’s office reports that only 41 percent of Somali men are working and 54 percent of Somali women are employed, meaning many may rely on the state’s handouts to survive, and are more susceptible to extremists pull.

“It seems safe to assume that if they’re not working, then they’re likely receiving public welfare benefits,” said Peter Nelson, director of public policy at the Center of the American Experiment. “More problematic, the Somali men not working are clearly not integrating as well as they could with society, which could feed into them being radicalized and recruited to fight with” the Islamic State.

 

[human]

Refugees do not have the 5 yr limit on welfare. They fall under different regulations. This family had 3 apartments, a few vehicles, sons in higher education. How do they afford all that?

Maybe the father has a fantastic job in Dubai. I have a friend who is a doctor there. Fabulous money.

 

[human]

What difference does it make? I think it makes a lot of difference how we are dealing with the refugees we are inviting in to this country. If we gave his family the generous benefits that we routinely offer, then it is even more egregious that his reaction was so violent and unwarranted, imo.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/feb/24/islamist-terror-groups-target-minnesota-somali-ref/

“That translates into the way Somali refugees have been received here they’ve been given a secure environment, housing, education, health care, perhaps even some minimum income to sustain them until they can stand on their own feet. That’s all provided by Minnesota,” said Mr. Samatar, who has tracked the State Department’s refugee program.


In addition to its generous welfare subsidies, Minnesota also has a number of charitable organizations that contract with the State Department like Lutheran Social Services, Catholic Charities, and World Relief Minnesota. Those organizations agree to help the Somali refugees learn English, get health care, find housing and gradually learn to adopt the U.S. as home.
“
...snippped...

Even though Minnesota has a good job market, that doesn’t seem to have translated into jobs for the Somali refugees. Minnesota’s state demographer’s office reports that only 41 percent of Somali men are working and 54 percent of Somali women are employed, meaning many may rely on the state’s handouts to survive, and are more susceptible to extremists pull.

“It seems safe to assume that if they’re not working, then they’re likely receiving public welfare benefits,” said Peter Nelson, director of public policy at the Center of the American Experiment. “More problematic, the Somali men not working are clearly not integrating as well as they could with society, which could feed into them being radicalized and recruited to fight with” the Islamic State.

True. We have fabulous benefits in MN. When I retired five years ago, a family of three received a whopping $423 a month. They had to pay 1/3 for housing. The housing is sweet. It does not matter if you scrimp and can afford soemthing better. The govt says how much you can spend, Sweet apartments on the second floor where you climb outdoor staircases with your laundry, groceries, children in minus 40 degree weather.

You get English classes provided usually by a school district. Fun. Try learning a foreign language. I live in a foreign country now and cannot speak the language. Trying. I am like an infant relying on others to help.

I teach English to people. I do not have a degree to do it. I do it for free. Try expaining English to people. Why do we say the, a, or no word such as , "I go to school". Wound, read, lead, --- on and on.

And ty to find a dentist in MN who can afford to provide services for what they get in reimbursement.

The nightmare those people have lived. I don't wish it even on those who do not get it

 

[Tawny]

I agree dotr. Artan had no intentions of surviving his attack. HIs intent was to be a martyr and take out as many "infidels" as he could along the way. He said this himself.

And why is it when a terrorist says in his own words, in posts and manifestos, and dying declarations, that he is a terrorist committing an act in the name of radical islam, so many media and apologists immediately and reflexively say, "No! He didn't actually mean what he said! He did it for another reason! He was depressed or something!" :gaah:.

Questioning whether he has legitimate ties to a terrorist organization and is not, in fact, just a crazy person claiming he's doing it for some terrorist organization is not being an apologist.

Plenty of violent offenders claim they did what they did for some higher cause (the devil made me do it). It doesn't mean they were recruited and acting on behalf of that entity.

 

[K_Z]

There are literally dozens of sources of income/ cash payments/ support for refugees, especially during their first 2-3 years in the U.S. Some of these payments are only available for the first 8 months the refugee is in the U.S., such as RCA (Refugee Cash Assistance) and Refugee Medical Assistance. Both of those programs use federal funds (NOT state funds). At the end of 8 months, they move onto the regular welfare rolls and medicaid, food stamps, and more traditional forms of welfare.

If a refugee applicant fills out financial aid forms (such as FAFSA-- those with green cards CAN receive federal grants-- illegal aliens have to file differently). If an individual's income is "zero", they receive the maximum grants. They also receive grants from individual colleges because they have "zero" income, and often are part of a protected class who receive additional grants and subsidies. They pay essentially nothing at all for tuition and fees.

Refugees are supposed to pay back the federal government for their plane tickets to the U.S.-- they have to sign an agreement to do this. The sponsoring agency (such as Catholic Charities) actually pockets 25% of the transportation "loan", as a "processing fee". Many refugees never pay back the plane tickets at all, and almost never in the first 2-3 years.

What is really interesting with Artan and his family is that they spent only 23 days in Dallas, before quickly going to Columbus. And then Catholic Charities "closed" their file on them. That is a very atypical arrival to migration pattern, and deserves much more scrutiny and investigation, IMO.

An important thing to remember is that once they are on American soil, they are no longer monitored or supervised. The can go wherever they want, move across state lines, etc. That is a very, very big problem, IMO. I believe we should have a robust and mandatory monitoring program for all refugees for a period of years, requiring them to register when they move, gain employment, etc-- perhaps as many as 10 years. And I know some won't agree with me-- that's perfectly fine. I know it's a controversial idea to some people, but I believe it's essential for the refugee, as well as the interests of the U.S. and its citizens. We are taking a huge risk importing these people, and there should be supervision and accountability, IMO.

Some basic info about how refugees and refugee sponsor groups are funded:

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/orr/programs/cma/about

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/orr/programs/wilson-fish

https://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/orr/wilson_fish_guidelines_fy2015_16.pdf

Wanted to add-- basically, there 3 paths to financial support for refugees-- state resources, federal resources, and federal resources administered through contracted agencies, like Catholic Charities. Then there are "local" resources, churches, non-profits, etc. Getting all these sources of funding maximized is a full time job for the refugee assistance organizations, and they are very good.

Wilson-Fish was designed to help refugees get self sufficient fast, and avoid lifelong welfare dependence, but paradoxically, Wilson Fish has only created a tremendously bloated bureaucratic system of subcontractors whose very existence is dependent on signing up lots and lots of refugees so they can continue to get the federal funds.

https://www.benefits.gov/benefits/benefit-details/874

 

[CoolJ]

What are we gonna do when these "radicals" learn that they can buy an AK-47 at Walmart.

"He wanted to do as much damage as possible" ...yet he brought a butchers knife with him? Get real...

Where are all these terrorist cells that they have been telling us about for 15 yrs? Are they all waiting for a certain day/time to strike?

I do not equate these lone "radicals" with knives as being on the same page as these invisible terror cells that haven't figured out how to terrorize yet. But, Lanza and Holmes were able to figure it out... Weird

 

[bluesneakers]

Questioning whether he has legitimate ties to a terrorist organization and is not, in fact, just a crazy person claiming he's doing it for some terrorist organization is not being an apologist.

Plenty of violent offenders claim they did what they did for some higher cause (the devil made me do it). It doesn't mean they were recruited and acting on behalf of that entity.

Right, I would say most anti-choice terrorists, including Eric Rudolph, are acting on their own even if they say they were answering to a higher calling. There's a difference, IMO, between someone saying "I'm part of a big powerful group" and a person being a part of said group. I'm sure not apologizing for Rudolph or any of his contemporaries - just addressing the facts.

Whatever they say isn't necessarily the truth and therefore, IMO, they should be handled differently.

Like you said no matter what the person might claim "The devil made me do it" has nothing to do with "ISIS found me and helped me plan this attack."

 

[K_Z]

Maybe the father has a fantastic job in Dubai. I have a friend who is a doctor there. Fabulous money.

Actually, that's the whole point. The profile of this family, as reported thus far in the media, indicates that they should not have been able to apply for, or receive, refugee status.

If they wanted to come here, they should have had to apply for entry to the U.S. from Pakistan using ordinary immigration channels. It's really a very big and important distinction.

This family doesn't appear to meet *any* of the criteria for legitimate refugee status to the U.S. And that is a real problem. It's not "enough" to be from a country that has a civil war or a non-functioning government, to apply for refugee status, once they have been in another host country for seven years. What was this family doing in Pakistan for 7 years? Where did they live? Were any of the adults working? When and how did the husband go to Dubai? Under what status?

The political conditions in Somalia have changed vastly in the 20 years we have been accepting refugees from there. The U.S. has never accepted refugees for such a prolonged period of time from any country, and we should not be processing any Somali citizens who have lived for many years in UNHCR host countries (ie. Pakistan) under refugee status.

The further fact that this husband/ father is in Dubai should have made them even less eligible for refugee status-- whether he is in Dubai as an immigrant worker, or if he is in some kind of refugee status there (which is extraordinarily unlikely).

To make it even clearer, when this family fled Somalia, they WERE refugees, probably. Pakistan accepted them as refugees (probably-- we don't know their status in Pakistan). You can't move from country to country, shopping for the place *you* like best, and call yourself a refugee. It was highly inappropriate for them to apply for refugee status from Pakistan after living there 7 years.

Every bit of information we are getting adds to the picture that this family should not have been brought here as refugees. It's no wonder that there has been essentially zero media coverage of the composition and situation of the family members in Ohio, their ages, etc. It's becoming clearer, IMO, that there was a very serious mishandling with how this family received refugee status in the first place. IMO.

In a 20-minute, wide-ranging conversation, Artan told me about his major in logistics management. He told me about his family fleeing Somalia when he was about 10 years old — including fuzzy memories of his native, war-torn land — and then about living for years in Pakistan and how much he enjoyed it. He bemoaned what he felt were western misconceptions about Pakistan: “It’s not like people believe.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...tant-now-its-chilling/?utm_term=.f74eb3e951f6

I wish Artan had surrendered his U.S. permanent residency status, and returned to Pakistan, where he has such fond memories of growing up. He would have been much happier there, IMO, and probably would have felt more like he belonged in that culture. And maybe he wouldn't have felt so compelled to run over and stab a bunch of innocent people in the name of islam.

 

[K_Z]

Funeral held for OSU stabbing attack suspect

COLUMBUS (WCMH) — A funeral service for 18 year old Abdul Ali Artan was held Thursday afternoon at the Ibn Taymia Mosque and Islamic Center in Columbus.

Artan’s family has kept a low profile since the attack. They declined to comment at the funeral.

http://nbc4i.com/2016/12/01/funeral-held-for-osu-stabbing-attack-suspect/

Video at link

Artan's mother is in complete denial over his actions:

Over 100 people attended Artan's funeral at the Ibnu Taymiyah mosque on the city's North Side. As is traditional, Artan's body was washed before it was brought into the prayer hall, where community members prayed over him.

Due to the ongoing investigation, Artan's family did not speak with the media, but Ahmed Ahmed, the mosque's director, spoke with Artan's mother on Wednesday.

"I believed my son would die one day, but I was not expecting him to die this soon," Artan's mother reportedly told Ahmed. "God gave him to me and he took [him] away."

Ahmed says she was shocked to learn her son, a straight-A student and recent Columbus State Community College graduate, had carried out the attack. She says that morning, Artan had just taken his younger siblings to school.

Artan's mother, he says, doesn't think her son is guilty.

"She's waiting for the investigation to conclude to see what they come up with, but she still believes that her son is innocent," Ahmed said.

http://radio.wosu.org/post/columbus-mosque-holds-funeral-abdul-artan

 

[K_Z]

Artan and his family were not living in a refugee camp in Pakistan, and did have U.N. refugee status there. There is not a large population of Somalis in Pakistan. They apparently lived in Islamabad.

Pakistan’s Somali Community Shocked After Attack at Ohio State University

Pakistan’s small, tight-knit, Somali community was in shock this week after hearing of the violent rampage of one of its former members in the U.S.

“I found out that it was a guy I knew. I couldn’t believe it. He was not like that as I remember him. Abdul Razak was very good. Not radical,” said Mohamed Abdi, 23, a medical student from Somalia based in Pakistan met Mr. Artan’s family while they lived in Islamabad.

Mr. Abdi said the Somali community in Pakistan was stunned when they heard about the incident. He described Mr. Artan and his family as “normal” Muslims, who would pray and fast, following regular religious tradition.

There are a few hundred Somalis in Pakistan, a mixture of students and refugees who mostly live in the capital Islamabad, said community members. They congregate in small groups in ramshackle cafes in the evenings in some middle-class neighborhoods of the city. There are smaller numbers of Somali students living in the larger cities of Lahore and Karachi.

Mr. Abdi said that Mr. Artan’s family were official refugees from Somalia in Pakistan, with United Nations support, and they had applied for resettlement in the U.S.

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/...nity-shocked-after-attack-at-ohio-university/

BBM

 

[K_Z]

The next door neighbor of Ohio State attacker Abdul Razak Ali Artan said his behavior changed the night before the attack.

"My daughter saw him when she left Sunday night and she said normally he's all happy and she felt he was a little off than normal. When he looked up at her, he just sort of hung his head back down," said Louann Carnahan.

She recalled seeing Artan with his brother and a friend talking loudly outside late Sunday night.

Carnahan added this was far different than Artan's usual behavior.

http://www.10tv.com/article/neighbor-claims-ohio-state-attacker-acted-unusual-night

Ohio State Knife Attacker Abdul Artan Was Taking a Class About Microaggressions

In fact, he had a group project on "microaggressions" due later this week. The assignment, worth 15 percent of his grade, required students to find a dozen examples of microaggressions on social media and explain which identity groups were the victims, according to the syllabus.

One of Artan's classmates who was part of his microaggressions group tweeted a screenshot of the assignment and the names of her group's members, which included Artan. None of these students responded to a request for comment.

But I was able to confirm that the microaggressions assignment is indeed a component of the "Crossing Identity Boundaries" class. The course's instructor didn't respond to a request for comment, either.

According to the syllabus, the point of the microaggressions project is to make students "recognize the role of social diversity" and "demonstrate an appreciation for other points of view and cultures."

http://reason.com/blog/2016/12/01/ohio-state-knife-attacker-abdul-artan-wa

 

[katydid23]

Maybe the father has a fantastic job in Dubai. I have a friend who is a doctor there. Fabulous money.

If the father has a well paying job in DuBai, why wouldn't he take his family there to live with him there?

 

[human]

If the father has a well paying job in DuBai, why wouldn't he take his family there to live with him there?

There are people all over the world who live apart from their families while they work. Perhaps it would not be possible to live in Dubai with so many people.

My SIL moved with her ex years ago to Australia, They have five kids. When they got there people asked them how they were going to afford to live with five kids, They left back to the US. I know Sydney is one of the most expensive places in the world.

Dubai looks that way s well. I know only a doctor who works there snd my daughter 's SIL who went there on a vacation. Don't know about average citizens, It used to be you could go work there and if you stayed over a year, you would owe no US taxes,

 

[human]

Looks like Dubai might be expensive.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...t-of-the-job-as-city-considers-low-cost-homes