OH Pike Co., 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #50

[Puzzles8]

Pike County Murders: 4 Wagner family members arrested in 2016 killings

"...The suspects also are accused of installing “counter-surveillance devices” on the properties of the victims... "

Because they installed the counter-surveillance on their properties I think they installed other cameras/audio to watch and listen to them in their homes and outside in their driveways.

11 dead? Wow. Hard to believe. I can't come to that conclusion yet..

Do you think it was by chance or design these 3 had a last minute change in plans?

 

[Cool Cats]

Do you think it was by chance or design these 3 had a last minute change in plans?

According to KR, it was "by chance" that she got a babysitting request and so scraped her plan to stay the night with cousin Hanna.

For reasons not specified DS decided to stay the night (with his girlfriend) instead of bunking at Kenny's, and if he knew ZILCH, then it was totally "by chance."

According to, I think, MG's grandpa, she was driving to her sister's place but passed the highway turn off and for unknown reasons just went back home. Maybe she got a premonition? But it's definitely "by chance" because MG would never let her sister Hannah (Frankie and the boys) stay in their house if she knew something was wrong that night.

I think the question is:

Was it totally by chance that the Wagner's picked a night to kill when only those 8 were there? Or did they " by design" plan very carefully--through their installed surveillance--
to pick the night all 8 were home alone with no one else there?

Another question -- If HG had spent the night with MG would the Wagner's have just killed the 7? Was HG nothing more than collateral damage?

Same for Gary. If Gary had been in Kentucky with his dad, would the Wagner's have done the killings without him there? Was Gary nothing more than collateral damage?
______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ______ ______

I've posted links before, but I'm having a harder time finding the MG link right now, so without the links only consider this my 2 Cents.

 

[Puzzles8]

According to KR, it was "by chance" that she got a babysitting request and so scraped her plan to stay the night with cousin Hanna.

For reasons not specified DS decided to stay the night (with his girlfriend) instead of bunking at Kenny's, and if he knew ZILCH, then it was totally "by chance."

According to, I think, MG's grandpa, she was driving to her sister's place but passed the highway turn off and for unknown reasons just went back home. Maybe she got a premonition? But it's definitely "by chance" because MG would never let her sister Hannah ( also Frankie and the boys) stay in their house if she knew something was wrong that night.

I think the question is:

Was it totally by chance that the Wagner's picked a night to kill when only those 8 were there? Or did they " by design" plan very carefully--through their installed surveillance--
to pick the night all 8 were home alone with no one else there?

Another question -- If HG had spent the night with MG would the Wagner's have just killed the 7? Was HG nothing more than collateral damage?

Same for Gary. If Gary had been in Kentucky with his dad, would the Wagner's have done the killings without him there? Was Gary nothing more than collateral damage?
______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ______ _______

I've posted links before, but I'm having a harder time finding the MG link right now, so without the links only consider this my 2 Cents.

You have put out there one of the biggest questions I have about this tragedy. Why this night?
Did it go down as planned or did the W4 have to adjust the plan as it unfolded?

 

[Loomis124]

I am sure they put security devices in the Rhoden homes like Nanny Cams for example.

But they are up on charges for a reason.

5 Ways a Hidden Camera Can Land You In Prison – HomeRestored

Indeed, they are, CC. Also, Count 20 reads "...or procure another person to...." JMO

 

[rsd1200]

Do you think it was by chance or design these 3 had a last minute change in plans?

I think they were all last minute, it nags at me sometimes, but in the end, each stay over person's reason for not doing so is so different, and so human. I don't think the Ws knew the plans of those three, nor whether they'd be there or not. I think they probably, chose that day, for a reason. One extra girl, at a house, and DS at KR's, wouldn't have deterred them once the ball got rolling.

 

[Loomis124]

According to KR, it was "by chance" that she got a babysitting request and so scraped her plan to stay the night with cousin Hanna.

For reasons not specified DS decided to stay the night (with his girlfriend) instead of bunking at Kenny's, and if he knew ZILCH, then it was totally "by chance."

According to, I think, MG's grandpa, she was driving to her sister's place but passed the highway turn off and for unknown reasons just went back home. Maybe she got a premonition? But it's definitely "by chance" because MG would never let her sister Hannah (Frankie and the boys) stay in their house if she knew something was wrong that night.

I think the question is:

Was it totally by chance that the Wagner's picked a night to kill when only those 8 were there? Or did they " by design" plan very carefully--through their installed surveillance--
to pick the night all 8 were home alone with no one else there?

Another question -- If HG had spent the night with MG would the Wagner's have just killed the 7? Was HG nothing more than collateral damage?

Same for Gary. If Gary had been in Kentucky with his dad, would the Wagner's have done the killings without him there? Was Gary nothing more than collateral damage?
______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ______ ______

I've posted links before, but I'm having a harder time finding the MG link right now, so without the links only consider this my 2 Cents.

CC, good post.

IMO, the killers knew everything going on with the victims down to the minute they shot them to death, one by one. And the way they knew all that was through all the means they are charged for...hacking, interceptions, etc. For crying out loud, these cowards knew all that and still had to kill them in the wee hours of the morning!

As for the last minute changed plans, I believe none of it was by chance. The killers were ready for such. After all, all they had to do was send fake messages round and round and alot of plans changed. Little did the receivers know 8 murders were in the making. Am I making sense?

At least one involved in these changes is listed in AWs cyber list of phones. But like most, she was unknowingly used as part of the wicked web spun by the killers at the last minute to alter plans for their benefit. All JMO

 

[Loomis124]

DBM

 

[Cool Cats]

CC, good post.

IMO, the killers knew everything going on with the victims down to the minute they shot them to death, one by one. And the way they knew all that was through all the means they are charged for...hacking, interceptions, etc. For crying out loud, these cowards knew all that and still had to kill them in the wee hours of the morning!

As for the last minute changed plans, I believe none of it was by chance. The killers were ready for such. After all, all they had to do was send fake messages round and round and alot of plans changed. Little did the receivers know 8 murders were in the making. Am I making sense?
At least one involved in these changes is listed in AWs cyber list of phones. But like most, she was unknowingly used as part of the wicked web spun by the killers at the last minute to alter plans for their benefit. All JMO

...My 2 Cents.......BBM

I think you are saying that the Wagner's sent bogus texts to the 3? I'm trying to think how this could even be possible. I assume the Wagner's were intercepting--as the indictments state--HR's communications/phone texts. KR and her boyfriend were following HR down the highway, it's the last time Kendra saw Hanna, then Kendra got a text asking her to babysit. Then from her car Kendra sent Hanna a text and told her she had a change of plans.

Because of this the Wagners would know that Kendra was not spending the night at Dana's house. Then through other texts by Hanna/family members, and through other audio/video surveillance in and around the Rhoden homes, including "on foot/peeping Tom" surveillance, the Wagner's could deduce who would and wouldn't be home that night.

I think this scenario makes more sense than the Wagner's sending Kendra a fake babysitting text.

The same can be said about DS texting Kenny his change of plans. By intercepting Kenny's communications/phone texts, and through the installed surveillance systens, the Wagner's learned that Kenny was likely alone that night. Again, this makes more sense then the Wagners sending DS a fake text message from his girlfriend asking him to spend the night.

Ditto...MG...Same concept.

And yes it is possible that the Wagner's also intercepted MG, DS and Kendra's communications, but I think it would be too obvious --too easy to figure out-- if the Wagner's sent fake texts that night. Those 3 would figure out fairly quickly that these texts were bogus and suspicious.

I also think Jake used fake friendships with family members and used his daughter to communicate directly with some of the 8 victims, thus learning their plans that night.

 

[OhioBlues]

My guess is that the killer's were determined to murder CR, DR, FR, HR and CR2 for certain. They had to eliminate HR's immediate relatives to assure custody of SW.

My theory is that some of the others knew too much. I think KR could have been murdered for that reason plus I think there was a possible connection between KR and CR camera's. The killers apparently removed at least much of CR's camera system and cameras plus at least much of KR's camera system and cameras.

KR, GR and HG would have known of the custody disagreement as well and the 'fight over custody' as well.

jmo. moo.

 

[Cool Cats]

You have put out there one of the biggest questions I have about this tragedy. Why this night?
Did it go down as planned or did the W4 have to adjust the plan as it unfolded?

Yes...Why this night!

I think it was meticulously planned down to the letter with them knowing who exactly was home that night. They decided to kill Hanna's immediate family and saw who was living with them. Because HG was living long term (apparently) with Frankie, and because Gary was living long term (apparently) with Chris Sr., the Wagner's added them in to the overall murder plan.

I think they knew Brently was there too, because there is less of a chance of waking him up if they know ahead he is there, and his mom said she thinks he slept through it.

I think they picked this night because everyone they planned to kill was home that night with no extra people. They wanted to do it as soon as HR came home from the hospital, one reason? Before S got too attached to her baby sister.

Jake said he couldn't tell S about "what happened to her mommy because she is only 2 years old." That's another factor, Jake wanted to get rid of Hanna while S was young enough to forget about living with her, thus it would be easier for Jake to deal with S's emotions, he could wait it out.

But it does look suspicious and is possible they had to adjust the plan because Chris Sr's manner of death differed from the others, there was a chaotic confrontation. It was a disorganized crime scene and he was possibly killed before the others. Also bodies were moved and Gary had a muzzle stain with larger caliber bullets used.
__________________________________________________________


OhioBluesWell-Known Member
[/QUOTE]
I think there was a possible connection between KR and CR camera's. The killers apparently removed at least much of CR's camera system and cameras plus at least much of KR's camera system and cameras. [/QUOTE]
BBM

This is the first time I heard about the possibility of Kenneth and Chris's security cameras being linked. Kendra said her dad was paranoid about security and had CCTV cameras all around the property and she said they were all dismantled. LM said Chris had cameras that showed who was coming up to the house and that they were all gone. He said if any were taken by LE they didn't tell him.

So yes, perhaps there was linked security between the 2 of them. In that case, if they didn't "need" to kill Kenny they would still need to dismantle his security systems and perhaps this is one more piece of the puzzle as to why he was killed, and killed to make it look drug related.

.......My 2 Cents........

 

[Fletcher73]

Another question -- If HG had spent the night with MG would the Wagner's have just killed the 7? Was HG nothing more than collateral damage?

HHG wasn't collateral - five shots in the head was total anger, JMO, and also my opinion that the anger was for introducing CG to HMR, and trying to be supportive of CG's relationship to the new baby, even if HMR didn't want to be with him - because (imo) JW wanted the new baby to be his. I think the five angry shots she took were total retaliation - if JW did it, and IMO, I think he did. jmo/moo.

(DeWine said it was a very weird case about obsession with children.)

 

[Deleted member 237253]

Did the Rhodens seem tech savy? For all we know JW could of had a hand in helping setup the Rhodens security systems? Moo.

 

[OhioBlues]

Yes...Why this night!

I think it was meticulously planned down to the letter with them knowing who exactly was home that night. They decided to kill Hanna's immediate family and saw who was living with them. Because HG was living long term (apparently) with Frankie, and because Gary was living long term (apparently) with Chris Sr., the Wagner's added them in to the overall murder plan.

I think they knew Brently was there too, because there is less of a chance of waking him up if they know ahead he is there, and his mom said she thinks he slept through it.

I think they picked this night because everyone they planned to kill was home that night with no extra people. They wanted to do it as soon as HR came home from the hospital, one reason? Before S got too attached to her baby sister.

Jake said he couldn't tell S about "what happened to her mommy because she is only 2 years old." That's another factor, Jake wanted to get rid of Hanna while S was young enough to forget about living with her, thus it would be easier for Jake to deal with S's emotions, he could wait it out.

But it does look suspicious and is possible they had to adjust the plan because Chris Sr's manner of death differed from the others, there was a chaotic confrontation. It was a disorganized crime scene and he was possibly killed before the others. Also bodies were moved and Gary had a muzzle stain with larger caliber bullets used.
__________________________________________________________


OhioBluesWell-Known Member

I think there was a possible connection between KR and CR camera's. The killers apparently removed at least much of CR's camera system and cameras plus at least much of KR's camera system and cameras. [/QUOTE]
BBM

This is the first time I heard about the possibility of Kenneth and Chris's security cameras being linked. Kendra said her dad was paranoid about security and had CCTV cameras all around the property and she said they were all dismantled. LM said Chris had cameras that showed who was coming up to the house and that they were all gone. He said if any were taken by LE they didn't tell him.

So yes, perhaps there was linked security between the 2 of them. In that case, if they didn't "need" to kill Kenny they would still need to dismantle his security systems and perhaps this is one more piece of the puzzle as to why he was killed, and killed to make it look drug related.

.......My 2 Cents........

[/QUOTE]

I want to retract that statement that KR and CR camera's were possibly connected.

I certainly do not know that as a fact.

I am going to research the issue to search for a supporting link IF there is a link but I have zero now.

Apologies for that post (too late to correct/delete)

 

[Fletcher73]

[/QUOTE]
I want to retract that statement that KR and CR camera's were possibly connected.
I certainly do not know that as a fact.
I am going to research the issue to search for a supporting link IF there is a link but I have zero now.
Apologies for that post (too late to correct/delete)[/QUOTE]

You're not alone - others have had the same idea - there was discussion, a couple threads back, that KR and CRsr could see each other's security CCTV - to help each other keep watch.

It was postulated as a reason to kill KR so he wouldn't see events unfold - and that his CCTV set up was removed to hide the connection from crime scene investigators.

Trying to remember now if it was indicated by news articles or by Discovery documents, so I don't have a link handy, therefore JMO.

 

[Betty P]

I want to retract that statement that KR and CR camera's were possibly connected.
I certainly do not know that as a fact.
I am going to research the issue to search for a supporting link IF there is a link but I have zero now.
Apologies for that post (too late to correct/delete)[/QUOTE]

You're not alone - others have had the same idea - there was discussion, a couple threads back, that KR and CRsr could see each other's security CCTV - to help each other keep watch.

It was postulated as a reason to kill KR so he wouldn't see events unfold - and that his CCTV set up was removed to hide the connection from crime scene investigators.

Trying to remember now if it was indicated by news articles or by Discovery documents, so I don't have a link handy, therefore JMO.[/QUOTE]

That fits with the theory that Ws killed KR because they knew he would know who they were and come after them.

 

[Cool Cats]

I think there was a possible connection between KR and CR camera's. The killers apparently removed at least much of CR's camera system and cameras plus at least much of KR's camera system and cameras.

BBM

This is the first time I heard about the possibility of Kenneth and Chris's security cameras being linked. Kendra said her dad was paranoid about security and had CCTV cameras all around the property and she said they were all dismantled. LM said Chris had cameras that showed who was coming up to the house and that they were all gone. He said if any were taken by LE they didn't tell him.

So yes, perhaps there was linked security between the 2 of them. In that case, if they didn't "need" to kill Kenny they would still need to dismantle his security systems and perhaps this is one more piece of the puzzle as to why he was killed, and killed to make it look drug related.

.......My 2 Cents........

[/QUOTE] FROM OhioBlues:

I want to retract that statement that KR and CR camera's were possibly connected.

I certainly do not know that as a fact.

I am going to research the issue to search for a supporting link IF there is a link but I have zero now.

Apologies for that post (too late to correct/delete)[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE] REPLY FROM COOL CATS:

Sorry, I'm the one who caused the misunderstanding. It was clear you were theorizing and what I meant is that this is the first time I heard someone bring up that theory/guess/idea!

It's a good theory. Think about it, people can be miles away from home and get a message that someone is at their door or in their house and actually see the person/intruder/theif.

I know people who watch their own homes through the cloud security app on their phones but they also are linked into an elderly parent's cloud security so they can watch through their parent's door cam and watch inside their parent's house. They get alerts if motion is detected, etc...

There was a couple who got a phone alert that someone might be in their house and they watched a cop rifle through and steal some of their medications..

....2 Cents.....

 

[Cool Cats]

Did the Rhodens seem tech savy? For all we know JW could of had a hand in helping setup the Rhodens security systems? Moo.

I bet yes. He lived with the Rhodens so your idea of him setting up or helping set up their security systems is a smart theory! He could then use the cloud security phone app to link into the Rhoden's security and get alerts and also watch them...2 Cents....

 

[Betty P]

I bet yes. He lived with the Rhodens so your idea of him setting up or helping set up their security systems is a smart theory! He could then use the cloud security phone app to link into the Rhoden's security and get alerts and also watch them...2 Cents....

Good point! Also possible CR1 installed more security cams that JW wasn't aware of and missed.

 

[Cool Cats]

HHG wasn't collateral - five shots in the head was total anger, JMO, and also my opinion that the anger was for introducing CG to HMR, and trying to be supportive of CG's relationship to the new baby, even if HMR didn't want to be with him - because (imo) JW wanted the new baby to be his. I think the five angry shots she took were total retaliation - if JW did it, and IMO, I think he did. jmo/moo.

(DeWine said it was a very weird case about obsession with children.)

The Oxygen show quoted GW4's ex-MIL saying that there was bad blood between Angela and Hanna. Then just recently I read that Angela had really bad feelings towards CG. Consider it only my opinion if I can't find and post the link.

But of course it's no surprise at all that the Wagners had bad blood/hate/resentment etc..towards CG. And it's been speculated, even before the arrests, that the excessive "overkill" shots were for revenge and hatred towards those victims.

Chris Sr. with 9, Dana 5 including one under her chin, HG 5 including one to her eye.

Like you said, these were most likely total anger shots, and rage/revenge. They probably would not have struck the night they did if HG wasn't home. HG's death and 5 shots was also a way to hurt CG and get revenge against him.

According to Jake (I know he lies) Hanna said she had a lot of things she wanted to accomplish, but then she goes right back into having romantic relationships and having another baby and this is exactly what Jake was waiting/hoping to have with her again because he said he thought she'd come back to him and that means to fall in love with him again, but she fell for someone else.

So maybe Gary was the only collateral damage? I think if he had been living in Kentucky they wouldn't have even thought about him.

....Opinion Without Links....(looking for quote where Jake says he thought Hanna would come back to him)

 

[Loomis124]

...My 2 Cents.......BBM

I think you are saying that the Wagner's sent bogus texts to the 3? I'm trying to think how this could even be possible. I assume the Wagner's were intercepting--as the indictments state--HR's communications/phone texts. KR and her boyfriend were following HR down the highway, it's the last time Kendra saw Hanna, then Kendra got a text asking her to babysit. Then from her car Kendra sent Hanna a text and told her she had a change of plans.

Because of this the Wagners would know that Kendra was not spending the night at Dana's house. Then through other texts by Hanna/family members, and through other audio/video surveillance in and around the Rhoden homes, including "on foot/peeping Tom" surveillance, the Wagner's could deduce who would and wouldn't be home that night.

I think this scenario makes more sense than the Wagner's sending Kendra a fake babysitting text.

The same can be said about DS texting Kenny his change of plans. By intercepting Kenny's communications/phone texts, and through the installed surveillance systens, the Wagner's learned that Kenny was likely alone that night. Again, this makes more sense then the Wagners sending DS a fake text message from his girlfriend asking him to spend the night.

Ditto...MG...Same concept.

And yes it is possible that the Wagner's also intercepted MG, DS and Kendra's communications, but I think it would be too obvious --too easy to figure out-- if the Wagner's sent fake texts that night. Those 3 would figure out fairly quickly that these texts were bogus and suspicious.

I also think Jake used fake friendships with family members and used his daughter to communicate directly with some of the 8 victims, thus learning their plans that night.

I agree...your theory is better. My main point was that the victims were being monitored very carefully. JMO