GUILTY OH Pike Co., 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #60

[Tiff23fr]

Scheiderer said the cistern was in the "big red barn."

It was June 3rd, 2016 when Angela said the new barn was almost done and her photos show they were still working on it at that time and there are no signs - at all - of anyone painting it red. Then it is on July 20th that she says she is selling her animals.

Point is, I do not think that this new barn was painted any color including the red Scheiderer mentioned. I think they ran out of time because they just wanted to hurry and sell. My conclusion - I do not think this new barn was built over the cistern.

These next 3 photos are from the same barn (I think) and if you enlarge the photo and look closely under the edge of the roof on left, front and right side, it looks like it is red paint that has worn away. It is possible this is the barn with the cistern or else there is a large red barn we can't see. This fits the description of being large and it is old like an old cistern would be.

View attachment 291081

View attachment 291082

View attachment 291079

This last photo shows what looks like a smaller building or barn off in the distance. Could it be red in color? I'm not sure.
View attachment 291083

Defiance Farms Photos

Thanks CC
If we flip the thought the other direction to assume the new barn etc had nothing to do with hiding/concealing anything. Maybe assume it just happened to be a big project going on at the time. I still wonder why, but mostly how, they made such an investment.
If I consider the notion Billy didn't live there, why would FW fund it? She appears to have some ran down facilities on FWF where her investments would be tax deductible.
I don't know....likely no real answer

 

[Johnny B Bad]

Defiance Farms Photos

That is alot of lumber as you can see in these photos of the Wagners' new barn.
There is also a photo of the chicken coop put up for the kids.

260 Peterson Rd. Defiance Farms
View attachment 291051
View attachment 291055

CC, let me run one more thing by you Sluthers, Big Chris was a good carpenter, just wonder if there some money owed for carpeted work, who built the Wagners barns????

 

[Cool Cats]

Thanks CC
If we flip the thought the other direction to assume the new barn etc had nothing to do with hiding/concealing anything. Maybe assume it just happened to be a big project going on at the time. I still wonder why, but mostly how, they made such an investment.
If I consider the notion Billy didn't live there, why would FW fund it? She appears to have some ran down facilities on FWF where her investments would be tax deductible.
I don't know....likely no real answer

I have one idea as to how they got money for the barn.

First off, FW gave George and Jake the property. Someone on here linked to a site that actually showed this Peterson Rd property being sold for one dollar. Yes, one dollar to George and Jake.

The dollar was a "token" payment for the property.

Anyway, I think that the Wagners used the Peterson Rd. property to secure a loan.

Is Taking A Loan Against Your Property A Good Idea?
A loan taken against one’s property can be used for anything – be it your child’s wedding or higher education, or even renovating your house, you can avail a LAP (Loan Against Property) for just about any financial need.

Now, why do I think the Wagners secured a loan against the Peterson Rd property? Well the proof is in the pudding. Thus, this pudding being from the State of Missouri.

The Wagners went to Missouri on their way back from AK and tried to secure a fraudulent mortgage loan for a house in Missouri.

Yes fraudulent loan - said in court on the witness stand by lead investigator Scheiderer.

So it stands to reason, to me, that the Wagners would milk their $1.00 Peterson Rd. property for whatever the heck property loan they could get out if it, considering that they tried - at least twice - to find ways to get a fraudulent mortgage loan in Missouri.

176 Highway P, Long Lane, MO 65590 - realtor.com®

Property History for 176 Highway P

• 
  
  
  

Missouri - From Angela's Discovery
176 Highway P Property
BCI Photos (36)
Listing Written Description (8 pp)
Photos From Listing (60)
Fairway Lending Subpoena (1 p)
Fairway Lending -- Residential Loan Application (202 pp)
Movement Mortgage
Mortage Documents

 

[Cool Cats]

CC, let me run one more thing by you Sluthers, Big Chris was a good carpenter, just wonder if there some money owed for carpeted work, who built the Wagners barns????

See my post above for my opinion on this.

 

[Tiff23fr]

I found Post #1240 thread #46 by @Puzzles8 - Do you remember any information such as the holder on the mechanics lien? I can’t get the land records link to work.

Post (abbreviated the name):
I think this information relates to the Peterson property.
It looks like the boys bought this property on 2/4/2014 from C A Burgess.
I don't see original mortgage information.
They took a $ 75,000 mortgage out on 7/20/2015.
Mechanic's Lien of $ 5,925 was filed on 12/16/2016.
Sold on 3/17/2017, no price given in these records.

Welcome to the Ohio County Real Property Official Records

And @Cool Cats - yes on sucking the equity

 

[Puzzles8]

Several years ago, I was able to access legal documents/financial records on 260 Peterson. Back then, this site was not particularly user friendly and I remember I had to do a lot of hunting around.

Ohio, Adams county, George Wagner, Edward Wagner
Welcome to US Land Records

From memory, J & G took out a $75,000 loan against the property (July 2015, maybe?). There was also a small mechanic lien $5,000ish filed by the carpenter working on the barn.

When researching the Peterson property listing/s and sales on real estate sites, it gets a little confusing when it comes to MLS #'s. Between 2016 and 2017 it was listed as three different numbers. One was farm land only, one was house and smaller amount of land and a third listing combining all of the land (two plots) and the house.

JMO

 

[Tiff23fr]

I just got the link to work. So this contractor stopped Dec 15, 2015... But the barn wasn’t finished, at least it seems from photos and this individual seems to do excavating work. Like maybe the site prep?
So it is possible the equity withdrawn $75k may have been gone, the contactor wasn’t getting paid so he was done, but somehow they got the lumber and maybe labor to finish it. Just a hypothesis..

And.. the murder planning began a few weeks after the contractor stopped if I remember January as accurate.

 

[Tiff23fr]

In looking at the discovery that was filed for Billy it appears there was a Facebook conversation between two parties on 12-15-15. The same day this contractor stopped working.

It seems from what we have heard thus far planning began in Jan. So it seems interesting that something occurred on 12-15-15 that resulted in a convo that landed in discovery.

 

[Ann99]

Cool Cats, Tiff, Puzzles,
This is all really good info and if it is not in the time line, maybe the dates and activities should be put in there.
We may never know who finished the barn, etc.
I am looking more at the W's $$ flow. I found a few interesting facts. I believe the Elder George Wagner played a significant role in keeping the money flowing, and when he became very ill and subsequently died, the W's (at least the next two generations) had no source of easy legal money. FW may have been struggling for cash too.

 

[Ann99]

All theory and supposition. Wagner Money, acquisition of 260 Peterson Rd. Need for more $$.

It's my theory that the Elder George Wagner (Frederica's husband) was a financial wiz. Unless it was Fredericka guiding him, or that ("doing the books/ taxes") person who was the companion of the fugitive guiding FW.

Could be that Elder Wagner purchased the 260 Peterson Rd property, eventually sold it to the boys GW/JW for 1$. Why? We don't know but probably as a "homestead" for the younger men/their families.

Apparently Angela lived there with JW for a period of time while Billy lived at FWF??? No explanation other than marital difficulties.
Seems maybe FW didn't want AW around, as they did not get along.

I can think of no logical explanation for the mechanics lien at the property other than JW /GW4 probably tried some well worn Wagner scheme on the guy and he recognized a scam and quit.
I found this info. may possibly explain a source (partial) of W $$.
Timing of Elder Wagner illness, subsequent death may explain the need for GW4 and JW to scramble for money.
Billy and FW too.
FARM SUBSIDIES

EWG's Farm Subsidy Database

USDA subsidy information for George Wagner Jr ( this must be the Elder George Wagner, FW husband) ?

George Wagner Jr received payments totaling $683,898 from 1995 through 2020

EWG's Farm Subsidy Database

USDA subsidy information for Fredericka Wagner

Fredericka Wagner received payments totaling $60,380 from 1995 through 2020'‡' received in 2018 and 2019

I can imagine all of this ( money was running out. FW may not have been as generous as Elder GW) as a motive for needing to get the children of GW4 and JW under legal control. Add AW scheme to move to Alaska.
If they had exhausted the $75k from a loan, they had no real source of huge chunks of cash.
Also another reason to think possibly $$ at CRSR was a motive for the murders.

Take the money and the children and run...
All My theory and opinion.

 

[Ann99]

Thanks CC
If we flip the thought the other direction to assume the new barn etc had nothing to do with hiding/concealing anything. Maybe assume it just happened to be a big project going on at the time. I still wonder why, but mostly how, they made such an investment.
If I consider the notion Billy didn't live there, why would FW fund it? She appears to have some ran down facilities on FWF where her investments would be tax deductible.
I don't know....likely no real answer

Maybe the barn was a necessity to apply for Farm Subsidies, eventually.

 

[Ann99]

It does stand out that it seems to be "certain" projects get pulled through. It appeared they couldn't afford much for a residence in Alaska. Then we have the possibility they were trying to get a place in Missouri, but were unable to pull that off. It doesn't appear there is consistency.

Farm land in another State. Maybe for some of them to live there (hideout) and later Farm Subsidies. Apparently Farm subsidies are a gold mine if you know how to use the system .

 

[Puzzles8]

I have one idea as to how they got money for the barn.

First off, FW gave George and Jake the property. Someone on here linked to a site that actually showed this Peterson Rd property being sold for one dollar. Yes, one dollar to George and Jake.

The dollar was a "token" payment for the property.

Anyway, I think that the Wagners used the Peterson Rd. property to secure a loan.

Is Taking A Loan Against Your Property A Good Idea?
A loan taken against one’s property can be used for anything – be it your child’s wedding or higher education, or even renovating your house, you can avail a LAP (Loan Against Property) for just about any financial need.

Now, why do I think the Wagners secured a loan against the Peterson Rd property? Well the proof is in the pudding. Thus, this pudding being from the State of Missouri.

The Wagners went to Missouri on their way back from AK and tried to secure a fraudulent mortgage loan for a house in Missouri.

Yes fraudulent loan - said in court on the witness stand by lead investigator Scheiderer.

So it stands to reason, to me, that the Wagners would milk their $1.00 Peterson Rd. property for whatever the heck property loan they could get out if it, considering that they tried - at least twice - to find ways to get a fraudulent mortgage loan in Missouri.

176 Highway P, Long Lane, MO 65590 - realtor.com®

Property History for 176 Highway P

• 
  
  
  

Missouri - From Angela's Discovery
176 Highway P Property
BCI Photos (36)
Listing Written Description (8 pp)
Photos From Listing (60)
Fairway Lending Subpoena (1 p)
Fairway Lending -- Residential Loan Application (202 pp)
Movement Mortgage
Mortage Documents

BBM -
First off, FW gave George and Jake the property. Someone on here linked to a site that actually showed this Peterson Rd property being sold for one dollar. Yes, one dollar to George and Jake.

The previous property owner of Peterson Rd. was not FW. See Uslandrecords site for name of previous owner. That said, IMO, I have no doubt FW had something indirectly to do with the deal.

I agree, it was very odd Peterson's previous owners seemingly "gave" the property to G & J. We don't know what their motives or associations were... and we can't even sleuth them!

Ahh, another mystery.

 

[Tiff23fr]

BBM -
First off, FW gave George and Jake the property. Someone on here linked to a site that actually showed this Peterson Rd property being sold for one dollar. Yes, one dollar to George and Jake.

The previous property owner of Peterson Rd. was not FW. See Uslandrecords site for name of previous owner.

I agree, it was very odd Peterson's previous owners seemingly "gave" the property to G & J. We don't know what their motives or associations were... and we can't even sleuth them!

Ahh, another mystery.

I think there has been a hang up on the $1. Here is an explanation:
Legal-Ease: Why does my deed show a $1 price? - The Lima News

The auditors site shows it was recordedly $175k for it 2/4/14. I have attached the property record. While it can be easy to assume FW funded it. I am not so sure I am there yet, but it is the easiest assumption to make.

 

[Tiff23fr]

All theory and supposition. Wagner Money, acquisition of 260 Peterson Rd. Need for more $$.

It's my theory that the Elder George Wagner (Frederica's husband) was a financial wiz. Unless it was Fredericka guiding him, or that ("doing the books/ taxes") person who was the companion of the fugitive guiding FW.

Could be that Elder Wagner purchased the 260 Peterson Rd property, eventually sold it to the boys GW/JW for 1$. Why? We don't know but probably as a "homestead" for the younger men/their families.

Apparently Angela lived there with JW for a period of time while Billy lived at FWF??? No explanation other than marital difficulties.
Seems maybe FW didn't want AW around, as they did not get along.

I can think of no logical explanation for the mechanics lien at the property other than JW /GW4 probably tried some well worn Wagner scheme on the guy and he recognized a scam and quit.
I found this info. may possibly explain a source (partial) of W $$.
Timing of Elder Wagner illness, subsequent death may explain the need for GW4 and JW to scramble for money.
Billy and FW too.
FARM SUBSIDIES

EWG's Farm Subsidy Database

USDA subsidy information for George Wagner Jr ( this must be the Elder George Wagner, FW husband) ?

George Wagner Jr received payments totaling $683,898 from 1995 through 2020

EWG's Farm Subsidy Database

USDA subsidy information for Fredericka Wagner

Fredericka Wagner received payments totaling $60,380 from 1995 through 2020'‡' received in 2018 and 2019

I can imagine all of this ( money was running out. FW may not have been as generous as Elder GW) as a motive for needing to get the children of GW4 and JW under legal control. Add AW scheme to move to Alaska.
If they had exhausted the $75k from a loan, they had no real source of huge chunks of cash.
Also another reason to think possibly $$ at CRSR was a motive for the murders.

Take the money and the children and run...
All My theory and opinion.

Right - no real source of huge chunks of cash.
I have been wondering, and we can use lumber as an example, but what if they didn’t purchase it? If into things illegally, there are other ways to be compensated. Could it be possible someone does X for someone else and in return they are compensated with $50k market value in lumber? Or maybe you do Y and are compensated with animals. (Just some possible examples)

It seems there was a FW way of doing things, but there ALSO may have been an AW way of doing things.

 

[Puzzles8]

All theory and supposition. Wagner Money, acquisition of 260 Peterson Rd. Need for more $$.

It's my theory that the Elder George Wagner (Frederica's husband) was a financial wiz. Unless it was Fredericka guiding him, or that ("doing the books/ taxes") person who was the companion of the fugitive guiding FW.

Could be that Elder Wagner purchased the 260 Peterson Rd property, eventually sold it to the boys GW/JW for 1$. Why? We don't know but probably as a "homestead" for the younger men/their families.

Apparently Angela lived there with JW for a period of time while Billy lived at FWF??? No explanation other than marital difficulties.
Seems maybe FW didn't want AW around, as they did not get along.

I can think of no logical explanation for the mechanics lien at the property other than JW /GW4 probably tried some well worn Wagner scheme on the guy and he recognized a scam and quit.
I found this info. may possibly explain a source (partial) of W $$.
Timing of Elder Wagner illness, subsequent death may explain the need for GW4 and JW to scramble for money.
Billy and FW too.
FARM SUBSIDIES

EWG's Farm Subsidy Database

USDA subsidy information for George Wagner Jr ( this must be the Elder George Wagner, FW husband) ?

George Wagner Jr received payments totaling $683,898 from 1995 through 2020

EWG's Farm Subsidy Database

USDA subsidy information for Fredericka Wagner

Fredericka Wagner received payments totaling $60,380 from 1995 through 2020'‡' received in 2018 and 2019

I can imagine all of this ( money was running out. FW may not have been as generous as Elder GW) as a motive for needing to get the children of GW4 and JW under legal control. Add AW scheme to move to Alaska.
If they had exhausted the $75k from a loan, they had no real source of huge chunks of cash.
Also another reason to think possibly $$ at CRSR was a motive for the murders.

Take the money and the children and run...
All My theory and opinion.

I'm still not clear what year/s the boys were driving their own semi or driving for other carriers. Any ideas? Were the boys also driving in AK to pick up extra $$?

Trying to figure out possible sources of income.

 

[Puzzles8]

I have a vague memory CRsr worked at a lumber mill years ago?? Also I think JM was in the logging industry? All JMO and from memory. Fact checks appreciated

Certainly if CRsr made his living as a carpenter (BBL and deck building) he was familiar with purchasing lumber and must have had sources he normally purchased through.

It would be interesting to know when CRsr and Billy become "un-bestfriends"?

MOO, JMO, etc.

 

[Tiff23fr]

I'm still not clear what year/s the boys were driving their own semi or driving for other carriers. Any ideas? Were the boys also driving in AK to pick up extra $$?

Trying to figure out possible sources of income.

I was wondering the same. I haven’t found a DOT number publicly registered to Jake or GIV so its possible others trucks. Edit to add: or they ran under Billys name/number

Billys was revoked from the Federal List 10/25/16 (However, it was registered to Peterson RD)

GEORGE WAGNER III

260 PETERSON RD
PEEBLES , OH 45660
New Entrant Revoked - Refusal of Audit/No Contact 10-25-2016 INACTIVE

https://li-public.fmcsa.dot.gov/LIVIEW/pkg_oos_process.prc_list?pv_vpath=LIVIEW&s_state=OHUS

 

[Ann99]

I have a vague memory CRsr worked at a lumber mill years ago?? Also I think JM was in the logging industry? All JMO and from memory. Fact checks appreciated

Certainly if CRsr made his living as a carpenter (BBL and deck building) he was familiar with purchasing lumber and must have had sources he normally purchased through.

It would be interesting to know when CRsr and Billy become "un-bestfriends"?

MOO, JMO, etc.

The logging and lumber industry is very big in Southwestern Ohio.
Yes, I seem to remember them both being employed in that industry at one time.
Here is a small general info article on Logging/lumber in SWOhio

https://www.pikecountyohioed.com/industries/wood/

I bet the lumber and labor could have been bartered or traded for other skills such as vehicle repair, horses, etc. The W's seemed to have no difficulty or worries about obtaining the lumber and labor.
I would love to know when those 2 became "un-bestfriends" Might have to scrutinize Hanna Rhoden's time line of events with Jake being less than caring and nice.

 

[sunshineray]

I have a vague memory CRsr worked at a lumber mill years ago?? Also I think JM was in the logging industry? All JMO and from memory. Fact checks appreciated

Certainly if CRsr made his living as a carpenter (BBL and deck building) he was familiar with purchasing lumber and must have had sources he normally purchased through.

It would be interesting to know when CRsr and Billy become "un-bestfriends"?

MOO, JMO, etc.

Probably around the time JW and HR broke off the wedding plans. I think that's when things started to go bad between the two families.