GUILTY OH - Pike Co, 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #67

[Cool Cats]

state has accepted his proffer with his contradictions, and they alone get to decide if JW has lived up to his bargain with the state, defence obviously seeing the contradictions in JW proffer think they can do a vigorous cross examination challenging his version of events

if they go to trial with the DP being either removed or reinstated by what JW says then IMO they are hampered in how they cross examine him, if they are able to get him to make statements that deviate from the proffer then JW will not have adhered to his bargain with the state and the DP gets reinstated as a possible penalty for the 4, I doubt any defence attorney would want to be responsible for moving his clients possible penalty from LWOP to DP,

I don't think it is fair that the defence are limited in how they defend GW the younger due to the way the DP can be reinstated,

From my understanding the normal way it is done is this:

You have 4 co-defendants who are not related and all 4 are charged with death penalty (DP) specifications. Prosecution offers them a plea deal:

Plead guilty and get the DP dropped. Possibly, like with Angela, get some other charges dropped.

All 4 Wagners were offered this and only 2 of them took it.

Now back to the 4 co-defendants who are not related:

2 of them take the plea deal and now they have to testify for the State in their co-defendant's trials because the co-defendants will not take a plea, they insist on a trial.

The DP is still on the table for the 2 co-defendants, the prosecution is keeping the death specifications against them.

I think this is how it is normally done, there is no deal to remove the death specifications against the 2 co-defendants going to trial.

So why did the prosecution offer to remove the DP from Jake's co-defendants when it's not normally done? Normally each person has to do their own pleas to get the DP removed.

Because Jake has to testify against family members and that puts in a moral dilemma. It isn't logical, right or moral to ask a son to testify against his parents and brother when his own testimony can send them to death row.

In fact it's absurd in the extreme to expect anyone to do that.

The Court knows this. This is why the State offered to take off the DP for Jake's family. But just like with anyone turning State's evidence, Jake has to be truthful.

George and Billy don't understand that they should do their own pleas if they want the DP removed. They don't understand that taking a plea to get the DP removed is a good thing for them. They might even get some charges dropped.

Going to trial they can't win, anyone who thinks they can win - I have swamp property to sell.

They are guaranteed LWOP with a trial and even might get the DP if Jake doesn't follow through. Why would George think Jake would follow through? George's defense accused him in a Motion of having mental problems and being a liar.

So they don't underestand that a plea deal would be in their best interests. DP off the table for sure and maybe a deal like Angie got or something similar, they could certainly try.

 

[Cool Cats]

DP cases always take years, some I have seen take 6 years, the pandemic is also an issue now, It is still a capital case until JW has testified to the states satisfaction, only then is the case not a capital one, and JW will have to testify at both trials (if both GW go to trial) before the DP is removed, when defendants lives are at stake every avenue is litigated before trial, as it should be if the state want to have the power to kill someone,

they cannot sentence either AW or JW until both GW have had trials or made their own plea agreements, as both JW and AW proffer only applies if they testify to the satisfaction of the state, so both proffers can still be removed from AW and JW by the state

I get your point thanks.

Still, 3 1/2 years is a long time for the first trial.

I think they take too long resolving the Motions. Deering is in charge of his Courtroom and he could speed it along a bit more if he wanted to.

It's been over 3 years and Angela still has to file a Motion with the Court just to go to the dentist. But I guess this is normal as you point out since of course Angela sits in jail waiting to testify in one or two trials.

Speaking of 2 trials......

If George loses, I mean when George loses his trial, be interesting to see Billy's reaction. Will he still go to trial? Hummm....

 

[joe jones]

From my understanding the normal way it is done is this:

You have 4 co-defendants who are not related and all 4 are charged with death penalty (DP) specifications. Prosecution offers them a plea deal:

Plead guilty and get the DP dropped. Possibly, like with Angela, get some other charges dropped.

All 4 Wagners were offered this and only 2 of them took it.

Now back to the 4 co-defendants who are not related:

2 of them take the plea deal and now they have to testify for the State in their co-defendant's trials because the co-defendants will not take a plea, they insist on a trial.

The DP is still on the table for the 2 co-defendants, the prosecution is keeping the death specifications against them.

I think this is how it is normally done, there is no deal to remove the death specifications against the 2 co-defendants going to trial.

So why did the prosecution offer to remove the DP from Jake's co-defendants when it's not normally done? Normally each person has to do their own pleas to get the DP removed.

Because Jake has to testify against family members and that puts in a moral dilemma. It isn't logical, right or moral to ask a son to testify against his parents and brother when his own testimony can send them to death row.

In fact it's absurd in the extreme to expect anyone to do that.

The Court knows this. This is why the State offered to take off the DP for Jake's family. But just like with anyone turning State's evidence, Jake has to be truthful.

George and Billy don't understand that they should do their own pleas if they want the DP removed. They don't understand that taking a plea to get the DP removed is a good thing for them. They might even get some charges dropped.

Going to trial they can't win, anyone who thinks they can win - I have swamp property to sell.

They are guaranteed LWOP with a trial and even might get the DP if Jake doesn't follow through. Why would George think Jake would follow through? George's defense accused him in a Motion of having mental problems and being a liar.

So they don't underestand that a plea deal would be in their best interests. DP off the table for sure and maybe a deal like Angie got or something similar, they could certainly try.

the state holds all the cards in relation to who is truthful or not, JW and AW will not be testifying truthfully they will be testifying to the truth as asserted by the state, with huge penalties if they don't stick to the script,

and I think the way JW proffer is worded in relation to the DP leaves huge appellate issues after GW are convicted, as I have previously posted I think the defence is unable to defend as they would choose to due to the state holding all the cards as to whether DP is back as a penalty,

and I think GW and BW fully understand about plea deals, and that the state may have offered them LWOP and no DP if they accepted pleas, GW the younger would never have taken that plea as he states (and I agree) he never killed anybody, we do not know if he has ever been offered a plea similar to AW but I can't see him pleading to get LWOP, BW I doubt would ever take a plea,

and I think its immoral to put the fate of JW family in his hands, which is what the state has done, pre the proffer the DP was solely in the hands of the state then jury, post the proffer the DP is now up to how well JW testifies according to the state, if he does not keep to the bargain he alone puts all 4 of them in jeopardy of the DP as a penalty,

and truth IMO has taken a back seat, JW gave his statement, even the state accepts he has contradicted himself, another word for lied, but they have accepted what JW has said (how much is the truth we shall never know,) as the version of the murders they are prepared to go to trial with, JW has to testify to this version of events per the proffer to satisfy the state in order to remove the DP, I expect what JW told them aligns with some of their theory and evidence of how the murders happened, but I also think both JW and AW will have lied or not told the full story when giving statements, thus IMO when the state says JW has to testify truthfully it is not the truth but the version that the state has in the proffer, and will use at trial

I always find it odd that a defendant goes from being a liar to being truthful when they decide to testify for the state, it is often referred to as testilying, A good word for it I think

 

[joe jones]

I get your point thanks.

Still, 3 1/2 years is a long time for the first trial.

I think they take too long resolving the Motions. Deering is in charge of his Courtroom and he could speed it along a bit more if he wanted to.

It's been over 3 years and Angela still has to file a Motion with the Court just to go to the dentist. But I guess this is normal as you point out since of course Angela sits in jail waiting to testify in one or two trials.

Speaking of 2 trials......

If George loses, I mean when George loses his trial, be interesting to see Billy's reaction. Will he still go to trial? Hummm....

all he has then is to plead Guilty, as the state would not have anything to offer him, LWOP is the fixed penalty so being found G or pleading G would be the same,

 

[Cool Cats]

all he has then is to plead Guilty, as the state would not have anything to offer him, LWOP is the fixed penalty so being found G or pleading G would be the same,

Then Billy has nothing to lose going to trial but if Jake testifies that he shot people then he might as well plead guilty to avoid having to hear it in his own trial.

 

[joe jones]

I am still confused about how the state intends to proceed at trial, until JW testifies and fulfils his side of the bargain it will be a capital trial as DP is still a possible penalty, so they have to seat a death qualified jury, when does the state decide to remove the DP as a possible penalty if JW has testified to their satisfaction

 

[Covert Operative]

state has accepted his proffer with his contradictions, and they alone get to decide if JW has lived up to his bargain with the state, defence obviously seeing the contradictions in JW proffer think they can do a vigorous cross examination challenging his version of events

if they go to trial with the DP being either removed or reinstated by what JW says then IMO they are hampered in how they cross examine him, if they are able to get him to make statements that deviate from the proffer then JW will not have adhered to his bargain with the state and the DP gets reinstated as a possible penalty for the 4, I doubt any defence attorney would want to be responsible for moving his clients possible penalty from LWOP to DP,

I don't think it is fair that the defence are limited in how they defend GW the younger due to the way the DP can be reinstated,

From the few things we know that are claimed to be in JW proffer I could certainly see him having more he may want to say on the stand during testimony in favor of G4, true or not. If JW thought BW may kill him before, (if that is true) he could be worried that BW will put a hit on him in prison or that he may not make it to testify. I am kind of kidding about the hit part but then again who knows.

I think the state will not want AW and JW sentenced before the trial due to the DP issue. I am pretty sure the DP could not be put back once they have been sentenced, therefore that is why they will wait til after the trials.

 

[joe jones]

Then Billy has nothing to lose going to trial but if Jake testifies that he shot people then he might as well plead guilty to avoid having to hear it in his own trial.

I think BW cares not one jot about what people think of him, so having all his horrible crimes testified about in open court wouldn't bother him, I do think the moratorium in Ohio for the DP has played a factor in GW and BW decisions in relation to going to trial or not

 

[Betty P]

Jake lies. Sounds to me like he was there with his dad demanding she sign papers.

All the Wagner defendants are proven liars. Jake will only tell the truth when his life is on the line. He'll face the DP if he lies at any of the trials.

Billy and George have been lying all along and will continue to do so.

They don't have to face the death penalty. All they have to do is make a plea deal and concur with Jake's confession and they get LWOP.

GW4's attorney isn't helping him by putting him at risk of getting the DP when he could have LWOP.

 

[Betty P]

I think BW cares not one jot about what people think of him, so having all his horrible crimes testified about in open court wouldn't bother him, I do think the moratorium in Ohio for the DP has played a factor in GW and BW decisions in relation to going to trial or not

Yes, BW is obviously very proud of the work he did helping murder 8 innocent members of the Rhoden/Gilley families. He was so proud of murdering the parents and grandparents of those little babies that he got a tattoo to commemorate the occasions - a scorpion on his trigger finger.

JMO, he's a sorry excuse for a human being. It's not at all surprising that the fool wants to gamble that a jury will acquit him. All the other options available to him will result in LWOP, so why is he playing games with the Grim Reaper?

 

[StrangeOne]

Do they record face to face visits in jail? I know in prison you can have visits without glass between them. Is it like that where the Ws are held?

 

[Cool Cats]

Do they record face to face visits in jail? I know in prison you can have visits without glass between them. Is it like that where the Ws are held?

Face to face is getting out-dated. They do video visits and everything they say is recorded. As far as I know.

The Wagners make alot of phone calls.

The Discovery shows 100's of Wagner phone calls from jail:

Billy - 720 calls
March 16, 2020 through June 9, 2021

George - 524 calls
April 30, 2020 through June 8, 2021

Jake - 415 calls

Angela - Before getting her phone privileges back on September 10, 2021,
made a phone call on April 22, 2021 the date of Jake's guilty plea and on April 27, 2021.

She must have been blindsided by his guilty plea thus the phone call.

 

[StrangeOne]

Face to face is getting out-dated. They do video visits and everything they say is recorded. As far as I know.

The Wagners make alot of phone calls.

The Discovery shows 100's of Wagner phone calls from jail:

Billy - 720 calls
March 16, 2020 through June 9, 2021

George - 524 calls
April 30, 2020 through June 8, 2021

Jake - 415 calls

Angela - Before getting her phone privileges back on September 10, 2021,
made a phone call on April 22, 2021 the date of Jake's guilty plea and on April 27, 2021.

She must have been blindsided by his guilty plea thus the phone call.

I've never been in jail long enough to get a visit from anyone so, I have no idea about such things. I was wondering if anyone was able to talk to them face to face. I'm glad they don't get a chance like that at all.

 

[joe jones]

Face to face is getting out-dated. They do video visits and everything they say is recorded. As far as I know.

The Wagners make alot of phone calls.

The Discovery shows 100's of Wagner phone calls from jail:

Billy - 720 calls
March 16, 2020 through June 9, 2021

George - 524 calls
April 30, 2020 through June 8, 2021

Jake - 415 calls

Angela - Before getting her phone privileges back on September 10, 2021,
made a phone call on April 22, 2021 the date of Jake's guilty plea and on April 27, 2021.

She must have been blindsided by his guilty plea thus the phone call.

the benefit of wealth, most inmates wouldn't be able to make many phone calls, but all 4 Wagners will always be able to make unlimited phone calls as they have the funds, I bet they also have plenty of cash put in their accounts to use in the commissary,

it is a good job they come from wealth as their family has to provide for 4 inmates not just 1, and it will have to continue for the rest of their lives,

 

[joe jones]

I've never been in jail long enough to get a visit from anyone so, I have no idea about such things. I was wondering if anyone was able to talk to them face to face. I'm glad they don't get a chance like that at all.

face to face is still available, not sure if the Wagners have face to face visits by family, they will have with their lawyers, and video calling is common in most prisons, and like phone calls they are recorded, the state is going to use some of the phone calls the family made to each other and to others outside jail at trial

I do wonder if any of them would be allowed to see each other post conviction, I know they will be angry about the proffers but they were a very close family, some have said cult like, and maybe BW and AW would request a visit to see each other when the trials are all over and the dust settles,

 

[IType]

the benefit of wealth, most inmates wouldn't be able to make many phone calls, but all 4 Wagners will always be able to make unlimited phone calls as they have the funds, I bet they also have plenty of cash put in their accounts to use in the commissary,

it is a good job they come from wealth as their family has to provide for 4 inmates not just 1, and it will have to continue for the rest of their lives,

BBM, In my opinion, this a very broad assumption. I strongly disagree. All four Wagners do not have a great deal of wealth. FW has the wealth. If the W4 had a lot of wealth, none of them would have state-supported defense attorneys. They'd have hired their own attorneys, just as FW did.

As for money in commissary accounts, GW4 is the only one for whom FW has--in the courtroom at least--shown any true support. She made a point at one of his earliest court appearances to send a verbal message to GW4 that she loved him. She was willing to have herself deposed as a critical witness in only GW4's case. She did none of this for the other three. She has only attended a few hearings for BW, a couple for JW, and I don't recall her attending any for AW but I could be wrong. I highly doubt she has put any money in the commissary for anyone but GW4; but, this is my opinion only. BW seems close to his sister and she may be putting something in his commissary, but I wouldn't want to place any bets on it, especially since JW and AW confessed.

All JMO

 

[joe jones]

BBM, In my opinion, this a very broad assumption. I strongly disagree. All four Wagners do not have a great deal of wealth. FW has the wealth. If the W4 had a lot of wealth, none of them would have state-supported defense attorneys. They'd have hired their own attorneys, just as FW did.

As for money in commissary accounts, GW4 is the only one for whom FW has--in the courtroom at least--shown any true support. She made a point at one of his earliest court appearances to send a verbal message to GW4 that she loved him. She was willing to have herself deposed as a critical witness in only GW4's case. She did none of this for the other three. She has only attended a few hearings for BW, a couple for JW, and I don't recall her attending any for AW but I could be wrong. I highly doubt she has put any money in the commissary for anyone but GW4; but, this is my opinion only. BW seems close to his sister and she may be putting something in his commissary, but I wouldn't want to place any bets on it, especially since JW and AW confessed.

All JMO

somebody is paying for all those calls so it is safe to assume FW is the one paying, and when I said they had wealth I meant FW money, I wouldn't expect FW to pay for the attorneys, once they knew it was going to be a DP case they all would have learned that you don't get just any public defender, you get good lawyers who are qualified to defend in a DP case, and you get more than one lawyer,

and I disagree, FW is as entwined in that family as much as the 4 on trial, and I think she will be providing them money in prison,

and I think FW probably doesn't want to see the inside of a courtroom ever again, I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't attend either trial, she is hoping the state will forget about her and her criminal involvement, and as to her being deposed that would have been done under subpoena so she had no choice,

 

[Betty P]

BBM, In my opinion, this a very broad assumption. I strongly disagree. All four Wagners do not have a great deal of wealth. FW has the wealth. If the W4 had a lot of wealth, none of them would have state-supported defense attorneys. They'd have hired their own attorneys, just as FW did.

As for money in commissary accounts, GW4 is the only one for whom FW has--in the courtroom at least--shown any true support. She made a point at one of his earliest court appearances to send a verbal message to GW4 that she loved him. She was willing to have herself deposed as a critical witness in only GW4's case. She did none of this for the other three. She has only attended a few hearings for BW, a couple for JW, and I don't recall her attending any for AW but I could be wrong. I highly doubt she has put any money in the commissary for anyone but GW4; but, this is my opinion only. BW seems close to his sister and she may be putting something in his commissary, but I wouldn't want to place any bets on it, especially since JW and AW confessed.

All JMO

It's an interesting consideration. If FW is not giving them money for so many phone calls from jail, who is? Just curious.

Maybe some have fans, as infamous killers sometimes do. Like John Wayne Gacy and Charles Manson, etc.

 

[Cool Cats]

I've never been in jail long enough to get a visit from anyone so, I have no idea about such things. I was wondering if anyone was able to talk to them face to face. I'm glad they don't get a chance like that at all.

Yes the Wagners can have face to face visits including Angie because she got her privileges back. Usually in jail you visit trough plexiglass talking on a phone and all calls are recorded.

On site visits are only one per week. Video visits are every day. This is for
Angie's Delaware County jail. Other jails could have different rules.

Delaware County Jail
ON-SITE (at the jail) INMATE VISITATION SCHEDULE

• Each inmate is allowed one 25-minute on-site visit per week at the jail (free of charge).
• Each onsite visit may consist of up to two adults and three children under the age of 18.
• Visits must be scheduled at least 24 hours in advance, but not more than one week in advance.

Delaware County Jail
OFF-SITE (at home) INMATE REMOTE VIDEO VISITATION SCHEDULE

• Each inmate is allowed one 25-minute off-site visit per day (for a fee)
• Visits must be scheduled at least 24 hours in advance, but not more than one week in advance.

In order to visit with your inmate online, you must first register with IC Solutions.
There are three ways to visit remotely with your inmate:
1. Using your personal computer.
2. Using the IC Solutions iphone or Android app.
3. Using the IC Solutions visitation kiosk in the jail lobby.

How it Works
Register or Log in here.

• Once you are logged into your existing IC Solutions account or have created a new account and are logged in, you must select Register for Video and enter the facility name.
• Select your Inmate.
• Fund your account using either a Visa, Mastercard credit or debit card.
• Schedule a Visit.

Delaware County Jail Inmate Visitation, Hours & Schedule | Delaware, Ohio

 

[Cool Cats]

face to face is still available, not sure if the Wagners have face to face visits by family, they will have with their lawyers, and video calling is common in most prisons, and like phone calls they are recorded, the state is going to use some of the phone calls the family made to each other and to others outside jail at trial

I do wonder if any of them would be allowed to see each other post conviction, I know they will be angry about the proffers but they were a very close family, some have said cult like, and maybe BW and AW would request a visit to see each other when the trials are all over and the dust settles,

Inmates can't visit and call other inmates.

They won't see each other in prison because I think they will be housed in different prisons. I have heard of inmates writing each other letters but I don't think the prisons will let them communicate at all because of the escape conversations.

As you can see, Jake is a level 5 felon the highest classification in his jail. It stands to reason all the Wagners will have high classifications and be in maximum security.
Especially the ones convicted of murder.

Another problem for the Wagners is the escape conversations. It's now in the court record that the Wagners were planning to break each other out of jail. They might be flagged in the prison system as escape risks which means they get maximum security.

... 2 Cents ...