OH Pike County: 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested#39

[IQuestion]

I would not think so. Surely she’s insured to the nth degree & a lot of the farm is held in LLCs, I think. I would need to check again.
I’m sure someone here knows.

Insurance does not protect a person committing a criminal act. For instance, if perp damages vehicle while racing away from police....no coverage.
"Generally, liability insurance covers only the risk of being sued for negligence or strict liability torts, but not any tort or crime with a higher level of mens rea. ... In other words, liability insurance does not protect against liability resulting from crimes or intentional torts committed by the insured."
Eta I wouldn't want to be her insurance broker right now.

 

[IQuestion]

Thank you for this!!! They were not forced to buy from her, nor to sign contracts. They bought “as is”, for agreed upon terms. Most were prob’ evicted repeatedly & had backgrounds disqualifying them from Section 8 or housing authority apartments.
Because of her wealth, some prob’ think she owed them something.
Not all of her land deals fell thru. Some people were grateful for the opportunity & satisfied their debt. Good for them & good for Mr. & Mrs. W for providing them with a chance when the banks would not.
IMO, other than knowing she’s charged with obstruction & perjury, and has had some question her animal biz, we know little.
Her religious beliefs are unimportant to me. Religion is a private matter for all of us & has absolutely nothing to do with this crime.
Barns catch fire around me on a weekly basis. I find nothing nefarious about her barn fire. I highly doubt she wanted her prized horse to burn to death. She seems to be an advocate for animals, IMO.
But, we all have opinions & that’s a good thing.

TRUDIE, (where do you get your energy?) People with good credit often make bad real estate decisions. Good credit can work against buyers. They get the lowest down payment requirements and the best interest rates....so ultimately they have "less cash invested." And it is easier for them to walk away. As for a post made earlier (by another poster) about having "an attorney" look over the docs before you sign on the dotted line.....Guess none of you have ever experienced the pressure of a timeshare pitch? (And if you buy today, we will throw in an additional 7 days in a remote tropical location with armed guards, that is never available when you want it.)

 

[Elley Mae]

Great recall SATCHIE
Yes, I recall that article, especially the "legally registered to do" part. So, that is why I think ATF was involved from the git-go:
According to the ATF, silencer and other Title 2 firearm manufacturers must submit an application for the making and registering of a new firearm, pay a $200 manufacture tax per firearm and receive ATF approval before the creation of such a weapon. Individuals desiring to make a silencer must meet these conditions and obtain permission to act as a Title 2 firearm manufacturer beforehand.
Regulations for Making a Silencer
Bullets fired from a silencer can be very different in appearance than ones that are not. Detective 101 would have me asking ATF, "Who in the area is registered to manufacture a silencer."

Registered suppressor versus homemade(unregistered).

 

[MittenScarpetta]

I always knew that this case could have been about a land grab once the sole Rhodam baby now became a Wagner baby.

I just read that the Wagner Matriarch owns and makes money by owning the biggest parcel in Pike County.

So I wouldn't be surprised if she was okay with the murders while trying to figure out how to get the deeds in a trust for the sole Rodham/Wagner baby aka her great grand baby. I don't know. Just thinking out loud.

But anyways. This is how she conducts business with her 1000s of acres she owns.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cincinnati.com/amp/2030661002

Great to see ya on the thread Dexter! That’s an interesting angle. I never even considered FW trying to grab the land held up in estates as part of the the motive. I’m not sure she would have been successful at that though, just because there are 4 minor heirs to the estates and because a large portion of the land CR1 owned was in joint ownership with his 3 brothers (KR included). Still, a very interesting angle when considering FW. I’m intrigued.

 

[Trudie]

I always knew that this case could have been about a land grab once the sole Rhodam baby now became a Wagner baby.

I just read that the Wagner Matriarch owns and makes money by owning the biggest parcel in Pike County.

So I wouldn't be surprised if she was okay with the murders while trying to figure out how to get the deeds in a trust for the sole Rodham/Wagner baby aka her great grand baby. I don't know. Just thinking out loud.

But anyways. This is how she conducts business with her 1000s of acres she owns.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cincinnati.com/amp/2030661002

Hmmmmmmm

 

[MittenScarpetta]

FW may not have intended to be involved in the crime, but was inadvertently dragged in by the actions of GW3, AW, IV and JW. Something like the 4 of them building a silencer (used in the crime) on the FWF using FW's farm tools.
Would that make any of FW's property liable to seizure by LE?

Respectfully, FW is charged with perjury and obstruction of justice. Those are by all means intentional crimes. Considering the length of the investigation, I have to imagine that LE, the AG, the grand jury, and Junk have significant evidence in order to bring charges against a woman not only of great social stature but also a woman the age of FW. She’s elderly.

FW is not only charged with lying during the investigation, she then got on the stand at the GJ hearing and presumably lied under oath. Perhaps she didn’t play a role in the murders that occurred, but at some point, if not prior to the murders, she had some sort of knowledge that she knew would implicate her son, daughter in law and grandsons. Instead of being truthful, she is accused of hindering the investigation. Personally, I can only assume she was doing what a lot of mothers and grandmothers would do-trying to protect her family but I guess at the same time it’s hard to find sympathy because there’s other families (Rhodens, Gilleys, and Manleys) who had their children and grandchildren stolen from them. Those victims are the ones who deserve to be protected, even if it is in death.

I’m no saint myself, however I am an honest person. It’s hard for me to wrap my head around how and why a mother and grandmother would lie during a mass murder investigation. Yes, she is innocent until proven guilty, but in general I’m a black and white kinda person. There is no gray area. If I had knowledge my child was involved in such a crime (God forbid), while it would break my heart, I’d also be the first person beating down investigator’s doors to tell the truth. JMHO.

 

[Trudie]

TRUDIE, (where do you get your energy?) People with good credit often make bad real estate decisions. Good credit can work against buyers. They get the lowest down payment requirements and the best interest rates....so ultimately they have "less cash invested." And it is easier for them to walk away. As for a post made earlier (by another poster) about having "an attorney" look over the docs before you sign on the dotted line.....Guess none of you have ever experienced the pressure of a timeshare pitch? (And if you buy today, we will throw in an additional 7 days in a remote tropical location with armed guards, that is never available when you want it.)

No time shares, here, no.
I personally know no one with a satisfactory credit that has or would purchase real estate thru a land contract.

 

[IceIce9]

I think she’s involved in the aftermath, thanks to her son & his family.
She lived 3/4 of a century w/o issues.
I know some here want to blame her, I don’t. The 4 are adults. She had no control over them. Wonder if she even thought it best for JW to have custody of his daughter?
IMO, she did not realize how deep into this the 4 were until the searches began. I will never believe because she’s G3s mom she condoned or helped plot the murders. I do think
she particularly wants JW and his brother out of this.

Related—I notice on a lot of threads posters blame a parent of the suspect. A recent case (now closed) a poster said something like this “his mom probably wanted them dead, bet she told him to do it”, “his mom is a narc’ & is prob’ glad they’re dead”. On a missing person case I read posts implying the person was killed by her fiancé & his mom is assisting in his alibi. Yet, LE have not verified there’s an actual crime. I think stuff like this is pure nonsense.

Fredericka certainly had control over her own actions. She participated in covering up a horrific crime and allegedly lied to the Grand Jury.

Did the ever-worsening details of the massacre not horrify her like they did us?

Sorry but my sympathies lie not with grandmother Fredericka but with the grandparents and other family members of the 8 who were slaughtered. Fredericka should have been sickened to learn that her family members were involved in this. Instead she willingly participated in lying and a coverup to protect them.

 

[Trudie]

Fredericka certainly had control over her own actions. She participated in covering up a horrific crime and allegedly lied to the Grand Jury.

Did the ever-worsening details of the massacre not horrify her like they did us?

Sorry but my sympathies lie not with grandmother Fredericka but with the grandparents and other family members of the 8 who were slaughtered. Fredericka should have been sickened to learn that her family members were involved in this. Instead she willingly participated in lying and a coverup to protect them.

I never stated I feel sympathy for FW.
I certainly hope she was sickened by the news of the crime.
At this point, idk what her lies consisted of.
Venturing a guess, maybe she was asked about the “revenge convo” allegedly held at her house & she denied it, again, idk.

 

[Trudie]

Respectfully, FW is charged with perjury and obstruction of justice. Those are by all means intentional crimes. Considering the length of the investigation, I have to imagine that LE, the AG, the grand jury, and Junk have significant evidence in order to bring charges against a woman not only of great social stature but also a woman the age of FW. She’s elderly.

FW is not only charged with lying during the investigation, she then got on the stand at the GJ hearing and presumably lied under oath. Perhaps she didn’t play a role in the murders that occurred, but at some point, if not prior to the murders, she had some sort of knowledge that she knew would implicate her son, daughter in law and grandsons. Instead of being truthful, she is accused of hindering the investigation. Personally, I can only assume she was doing what a lot of mothers and grandmothers would do-trying to protect her family but I guess at the same time it’s hard to find sympathy because there’s other families (Rhodens, Gilleys, and Manleys) who had their children and grandchildren stolen from them. Those victims are the ones who deserve to be protected, even if it is in death.

I’m no saint myself, however I am an honest person. It’s hard for me to wrap my head around how and why a mother and grandmother would lie during a mass murder investigation. Yes, she is innocent until proven guilty, but in general I’m a black and white kinda person. There is no gray area. If I had knowledge my child was involved in such a crime (God forbid), while it would break my heart, I’d also be the first person beating down investigator’s doors to tell the truth. JMHO.

Mitten, I agree. It’s incomprehensible for anyone to not come forward, should they have info.
But, it happens more often than not. Imo
As far as her age, I’d hope no prosecutor would cut slack just because someone is elderly. That would be more than wrong.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Mitten, I agree. It’s incomprehensible for anyone to not come forward, should they have info.
But, it happens more often than not. Imo
As far as her age, I’d hope no prosecutor would cut slack just because someone is elderly. That would be more than wrong.

I agree, that would be more than wrong. I suppose I was coming from the perspective that her being elderly and facing the charges she is facing, speaks volumes, ya know? I’d never expect someone to be cut slack because of their age at all.

 

[Charliegizmo49]

Insurance does not protect a person committing a criminal act. For instance, if perp damages vehicle while racing away from police....no coverage.
"Generally, liability insurance covers only the risk of being sued for negligence or strict liability torts, but not any tort or crime with a higher level of mens rea. ... In other words, liability insurance does not protect against liability resulting from crimes or intentional torts committed by the insured."
Eta I wouldn't want to be her insurance broker right now.

I believe that for the right price a liability umbrella policy can be written to cover anything. I did look at her propety a month ago and stopped when I saw the LLCs and the real estate company protection.

Not one thing would surprise me considering the mindset of this clan. I’m not even certain despite living near the “cross” the family has the normal respect and value for human life as the posters on this forum.

They have different beliefs, a sense of superiority and entitlement. Mostly due to their wealth in an area of poverty and a community of perhaps simple people.

And if found guilty, each of the 4 should be sentenced to death for the 8 lives they so heinously destroyed.

They will never be punished for the pain and devastation they alone imposed on scores of family. The images of the murders will stay with the first responders forever. The cost to one of the poorest counties in Ohio has already been exceedingly difficult. Monies intended for other programs and care of the young, the old and infirm has been cut short and transferred to the murder investigation.

These murders have probably affected hundreds if not thousands of residents if Pike County. The budgets of every agency called in to investigate have also been impacted all the way from BCI to the Attorney Generals Office. Even investigators in Alaska had costs pertainingvto this case.

The cost factor of the investigation is far reaching and often we don’t think about the money involved. And for every dollar spend on this Investigation is a dollar removed from another program.

The murderers didn’t just pull the triggers, they negatively impacted their neighbors, their county and the State of Ohio. And the lasting impact has only just begun. It may b decades before an accurate mental, physical, emotional and fiscal cost can be assessed to Ohio.

 

[Charliegizmo49]

Insurance does not protect a person committing a criminal act. For instance, if perp damages vehicle while racing away from police....no coverage.
"Generally, liability insurance covers only the risk of being sued for negligence or strict liability torts, but not any tort or crime with a higher level of mens rea. ... In other words, liability insurance does not protect against liability resulting from crimes or intentional torts committed by the insured."
Eta I wouldn't want to be her insurance broker right now.

I believe that for the right price a liability umbrella policy can be written to cover anything. I did look at her propety a month ago and stopped when I saw the LLCs and the real estate company protection.

Not one thing would surprise me considering the mindset of this clan. I’m not even certain despite living near the “cross” the family has the normal respect and value for human life as the posters on this forum.

They have different beliefs, a sense of superiority and entitlement. Mostly due to their wealth in an area of poverty and a community of perhaps simple people.

And if found guilty, each of the 4 should be sentenced to death for the 8 lives they so heinously destroyed.

They will never be punished for the pain and devastation they alone imposed on scores of family. The images of the murders will stay with the first responders forever. The cost to one of the poorest counties in Ohio has already been exceedingly difficult. Monies intended for other programs and care of the young, the old and infirm has been cut short and transferred to the murder investigation.

These murders have probably affected hundreds if not thousands of residents of Pike County. The budgets of every agency called in to investigate have also been impacted all the way from BCI to the Attorney Generals Office. Even investigators in Alaska had costs pertainingvto this case.

*******************************************

And what coincidental timing of the anonymous complaints and nasty accusations against Charlie Reader. The language patterns in the nasty tabloid style paper delivered a couple of years ago and the anonymous complaint have similar leriting patterns. The tabloid even has very similar references to poetry posted elsewhere

“CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?” Appears in the tabloid and posted poetry by someone named RAMBLIN ROSE.

I hope these two documents are analyzed by a professional AND the feds. The entire Reader issue needs thorough investigation to see if they too are Wagner written and paid for.

* ******************************************

The cost factor of the murder investigation is far reaching and often we don’t think about the money involved. And for every dollar spent on this Investigation is a dollar removed from another program.

The murderers didn’t just pull the triggers, they negatively impacted their neighbors, their county and the State of Ohio. And the lasting impact has only just begun. It may be decades before an accurate mental, physical, emotional and fiscal cost can be assessed to Ohio.

 

[Charliegizmo49]

Fredericka certainly had control over her own actions. She participated in covering up a horrific crime and allegedly lied to the Grand Jury.

Did the ever-worsening details of the massacre not horrify her like they did us?

Sorry but my sympathies lie not with grandmother Fredericka but with the grandparents and other family members of the 8 who were slaughtered. Fredericka should have been sickened to learn that her family members were involved in this. Instead she willingly participated in lying and a coverup to protect them.

Regardless of the outcome, at her age, even with her assets she won’t have time to clean up the Wagners name or reputation.

 

[IQuestion]

Registered suppressor versus homemade(unregistered).

Yes, "homemade is illegal" hence ATF can be a prosecuting agency. ATF can be relentless. (no examples needed.)

 

[Trudie]

Charlie, I think you’re spot on re: umbrella coverage.

Does Your Homeowners Insurance Cover Murder?

 

[Trudie]

I agree, that would be more than wrong. I suppose I was coming from the perspective that her being elderly and facing the charges she is facing, speaks volumes, ya know? I’d never expect someone to be cut slack because of their age at all.

It seems one is never too young or old to become a criminal.
We never know. As I said last evening, this could be any of us, in a similar situation. We truly never know what another is contemplating.

 

[IQuestion]

Charlie, I think you’re spot on re: umbrella coverage.

Does Your Homeowners Insurance Cover Murder?

From the article referenced above: "The reason the liability clause covered this settlement is that the lawyers for the victims sued the killers’ parents for being negligent in the supervision of their children. Insurance company payments on behalf of the people who supplied the guns used in the killings bring the total of the settlement to about $2.5 million."
( much to discuss. AW & GW3 lived with the boys, not FW. Someone will take a run at it, our insurance premiums go up too, when others are negligent. Catch 22

 

[MittenScarpetta]

It seems one is never too young or old to become a criminal.
We never know. As I said last evening, this could be any of us, in a similar situation. We truly never know what another is contemplating.

It absolutely could be any one of us in this situation. I suppose it’s how we would handle this type of situation and being in FW’s “shoes” is what would be reflective of our character. So far, FW’s character is loud and clear, IMO. At the end of the day, right is right, wrong is wrong. For a woman who has “lived as close to the Cross” as one possibly could, I feel like she has forgotten to read, understand, and live by example-the Ten Commandments.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Fredericka and Bob from years ago. She used to help the less fortunate at the holidays by providing them with food baskets, not sure if she still does or not. Like her or not, she is a generous and compassionate old soul. I seriously just find it hard to believe she is in this mess.

And how much compassion did she show Kenneth R when he died without knowing the peace of his son's killers being locked up? Or Geneva R who sat crying and shaking in a chair begging for anyone who had information about her children's killers to come forward and tell what they knew?

Giving out a few baskets of food at the holidays which are commonly used by many people as a last minute tax deduction for charity does not make her compassionate or generous. Anyone can give away material possessions. But it is the caring about the emotional and physical suffering of others that defines compassion. And I just don't see it in her.

JMO