OH Pike County: 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested#43

[Jonas_Klein]

They never threatened anyone, to threaten someone you actually have to say something to them.

The Wagner's were talking amongst themselves but never went to someone directly to threaten them. All their talk was just that, just talk, it stayed behind closed doors.

It's not against the law to have conversation in your own house, but it is against the law to see Special Agent Shider at your house and threaten to do him harm while holding a weapon.

• SEATTLE 911 -- A POLICE AND CRIME BLOG...............

Threats are a different matter, and the statute is Harassment. In fact, threats to kill can be a felony. Otherwise “threats” are a gross misdemeanor. Illegal threats include threats to do bodily harm, threaten to destroy property, or threats to do anything “which is maliciously intended to substantially harm the person threatened or another with respect to his or her physical or mental health or safety.” Either immediately or in the future.

The only caveat is that the person who is threatened must be “placed in reasonable fear that the threat will be carried out”.

For example, if a person calls from New York and says he is coming right over to beat somebody up, and that person knew the other person was in New York, then this would not fit the statute. Probably no crime. However, same words from someone who is across town, then it could be illegal, depending on the circumstances.

Ok. I understand. The Ws did not threatened officials, if the Ws did not believe these officials would be threatened by the conversation.

What's the point of using this argument in denying bail to Ws if it's not a crime to have these talks in a private conversation?

 

[Cool Cats]

Ok. I understand. The Ws did not threatened officials, if the Ws did not believe these officials would be threatened by the conversation.

What's the point of using this argument in denying bail to Ws if it's not a crime to have these talks in a private conversation?

A possibility is not a crime, but the possibility of the Wagners trying to escape or trying to wreck havoc on authorities, is actually real.

The Wagners talked about revenge and escape but never ACTED on it, but there's the possibility they could act on it if let out on bail.

I knew an inmate in prison and he told his sister over the recorded phone line that he wanted to try to escape. The next week, without explanation, he was transferred to a higher security level.

Did he try to escape? No. Was it a possibility? Yes.
Talking about it wasn't enough for it to be a "ticket" (disciplinary write up) but it was enough to watch him more carefully.

My 2 Cents.....anyone else?

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Can't make any conclusions as to time of death for any of the victims or how much time elapsed between CRsr's death and death of the others based solely on the unredacted info--which, if course, is the purpose of the redaction. I did mention in an earlier post about a vertebral fracture in CRsr's report that I'd like to see more info about how recent the fracture was, but no conclusions can be drawn from the info provided.

As for HMR's autopsy, there's the statement under the General heading on page 46/66 that says "The mouth...small foam cap is at the lips". I have a theory as to what may have caused this, but I don't want to say too much as it's all conjecture at this point. I think it is feasible that it might have been caused by a prescribed medication in HMR's system at the time of death. Since she was only a few days postpartum (after childbirth), it is possible she could have been taking a pain medication that was prescribed to her; but, I don't want to say anything more than that because, again, it is just conjecture. The only way to come to any positive conclusion would be if we could see the redacted toxicology section of her autopsy report.

All JMO.

Can't make any conclusions as to time of death for any of the victims or how much time elapsed between CRsr's death and death of the others based solely on the unredacted info--which, if course, is the purpose of the redaction. I did mention in an earlier post about a vertebral fracture in CRsr's report that I'd like to see more info about how recent the fracture was, but no conclusions can be drawn from the info provided.

As for HMR's autopsy, there's the statement under the General heading on page 46/66 that says "The mouth...small foam cap is at the lips". I have a theory as to what may have caused this, but I don't want to say too much as it's all conjecture at this point. I think it is feasible that it might have been caused by a prescribed medication in HMR's system at the time of death. Since she was only a few days postpartum (after childbirth), it is possible she could have been taking a pain medication that was prescribed to her; but, I don't want to say anything more than that because, again, it is just conjecture. The only way to come to any positive conclusion would be if we could see the redacted toxicology section of her autopsy report.

All JMO.

Thank you for sifting through the autopsies and offering your insight. I have not read them. Is it possible, based upon what you have read, for her to have created the foam cap as she struggled for her last breaths? I don't recall if she was shot in the chest. TIA

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Mine said that too. After the Barbie doll incidence it was removed.

Barbie doll incident? ‍I'm not familiar...

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I can't see Wags ever allowing this..no how no way. LOL

Don't think the Wags get a say in the matter. It would be great if Court TV would broadcast this case!

 

[Dudly]

FW's name is mentioned in Count 22, of the 4W indictments - Engaging in a Pattern of Corrupt Activity. So is RN's.

That could cover a lot. It may be why they worded it that way.

 

[Betty P]

That could cover a lot. It may be why they worded it that way.

Yes, it could, but prosecutors would need to have specific details for the charges and be able to link each person named to some act they were involved in or benefited from. Hope that makes sense.

It's also somewhat specific in that it refers to some kind of enterprise or business activity.

Here's the statute:

Lawriter - ORC - 2923.32 Engaging in pattern of corrupt activity.

"(1) No person employed by, or associated with, any enterprise shall conduct or participate in, directly or indirectly, the affairs of the enterprise through a pattern of corrupt activity or the collection of an unlawful debt.

(2) No person, through a pattern of corrupt activity or the collection of an unlawful debt, shall acquire or maintain, directly or indirectly, any interest in, or control of, any enterprise or real property.

(3) No person, who knowingly has received any proceeds derived, directly or indirectly, from a pattern of corrupt activity or the collection of any unlawful debt, shall use or invest, directly or indirectly, any part of those proceeds, or any proceeds derived from the use or investment of any of those proceeds, in the acquisition of any title to, or any right, interest, or equity in, real property or in the establishment or operation of any enterprise.

A purchase of securities on the open market with intent to make an investment, without intent to control or participate in the control of the issuer, and without intent to assist another to do so is not a violation of this division, if the securities of the issuer held after the purchase by the purchaser, the members of the purchaser's immediate family, and the purchaser's or the immediate family members' accomplices in any pattern of corrupt activity or the collection of an unlawful debt do not aggregate one per cent of the outstanding securities of any one class of the issuer and do not confer, in law or in fact, the power to elect one or more directors of the issuer."

Wonder what kind of business, enterprise or activity this charge refers to? It names RN and FW, as well as the other 4 W's.

 

[Loomis124]

About the threats to target officials. Don't you think it should have appeared in the indictements? Unless I missed it, they are not charged for making death threats. It's an offense

Why do you think they are not charged? My speculation is the witness of these threats is not willing to testify in court.
JMO.

ETA: If there were a recording, MOO they would be charged for these threats.

My opinion is that the prosecution did not show their full hand. That would be foolish. If I'm not mistaken new charges can be added to indictments.

 

[Betty P]

The Wagner 4 are being charged with Engaging in a Pattern of Corrupt Activity but not Fred. The Wagner 4 discussed the GJ testimony with Fred, (AC said Fred discussed her GJ testimony) and the plans to escape and plans for revenge. Fred and Rita are only one of the many parts of the Wagner 4 engaging in a Corrupt Pattern of Criminal Activity.

Still not enough to indict Fred on that charge or they would have done so already. If they think she should be indicted on that charge but failed to do so, it would be negligent on the part of the prosecution.

What excuse would they have for doing nothing? They already have thousands of pieces of evidence, the ball is already in their court.

It's the unpopular stance to defend Fred but I am not defending her in the least. I'm only going by what the indictments tell us and don't tell us.

Perhaps naming FW and RN in the corrupt activity charge is a way to put pressure on them to cooperate.

 

[Betty P]

Ok. I understand. The Ws did not threatened officials, if the Ws did not believe these officials would be threatened by the conversation.

What's the point of using this argument in denying bail to Ws if it's not a crime to have these talks in a private conversation?

JMO, according to what prosecution has said, they did threaten DeWine and Reader and those threats were taken seriously. Just because a specific charge wasn't brought against them for this activity doesn't mean it didn't happen or that they don't have evidence to back it up.

Pike County murders: George Wagner IV ‘most vocal’ about DeWine revenge, prosecutors say

What the first court appearances revealed about the Pike County murders investigation

There seem to be a number of other possible charges that W's could be subject to. We're assuming here not all were brought by the prosecution for the sake of KISS (Keep It Simple..). These and possible federal charges could be brought later if needed.

 

[rsd1200]

JMO, according to what prosecution has said, they did threaten DeWine and Reader and those threats were taken seriously. Just because a specific charge wasn't brought against them for this activity doesn't mean it didn't happen or that they don't have evidence to back it up.

Pike County murders: George Wagner IV ‘most vocal’ about DeWine revenge, prosecutors say

What the first court appearances revealed about the Pike County murders investigation

There seem to be a number of other possible charges that W's could be subject to. We're assuming here not all were brought by the prosecution for the sake of KISS (Keep It Simple..). These and possible federal charges could be brought later if needed.

I think they will have to be found guilty of all charges for that one to stick. The 1A is pretty lenient, especially if you are in your own home, not knowing you are being recorded. We don't know for sure what the revenge was. It very well could be the release of a lot dirt they were privy to to make Dewine and crew look incompetent. I just don't see how they'd get to some of the people mentioned, either, unless, of course, they were willing to die doing so, and that could be possible...

 

[Loomis124]

My thoughts are that there will never be trials for the four Wagners. Late in 2016, it was beginning
to appear to me that FW was the mastermind. Just my opinion, that Jake was telling FW of the cruel
things HMR was doing to make him so unhappy. She was furnishing the funds for him to be able
to watch the Rhodens daily activities. It was all about entitlement and control. If FW can't control
the proceedings, the four will weaken and take a plea. When the scope of evidence is revealed to
the defense, FW's role will become very evident. Again, Just My Opinion.

My thoughts are that there will never be trials for the four Wagners. Late in 2016, it was beginning
to appear to me that FW was the mastermind. Just my opinion, that Jake was telling FW of the cruel
things HMR was doing to make him so unhappy. She was furnishing the funds for him to be able
to watch the Rhodens daily activities. It was all about entitlement and control. If FW can't control
the proceedings, the four will weaken and take a plea. When the scope of evidence is revealed to
the defense, FW's role will become very evident. Again, Just My Opinion.

Wow. Just wow. Thank you..

What do you make of the fact the Ws started watching HR way back in 2014?

I suspect they were watching GW4s ex wife, too.

I also believe there will be overwhelming evidence that the Ws and the Rs were in business together (undercurrent of drugs that DeWine spoke of) and this was the second motive. All JMO

 

[Loomis124]

It says just one photo of George "Billy" Wagner's tattoo. And if it said before, just George Wagner, that probably means GW3 also since his name George is used more in court then Billy is used.

I checked though, and GW4 does have tattoos on his arms so your right, you can't count him out. But I think this relates to GW3's scorpion tattoo.
2 Cents......

Can you please share how you know GW4 has tattoos? TY

 

[Betty P]

I think they will have to be found guilty of all charges for that one to stick. The 1A is pretty lenient, especially if you are in your own home, not knowing you are being recorded. We don't know for sure what the revenge was. It very well could be the release of a lot dirt they were privy to to make Dewine and crew look incompetent. I just don't see how they'd get to some of the people mentioned, either, unless, of course, they were willing to die doing so, and that could be possible...

Prosecution hasn't brought charges against them for the threats AFAIK. They just brought up the threats as evidence in the pre-trial hearing. If recordings, witness testimony, etc., it could be used against them during trials on the other charges. Who knows what all might be in recordings or what a witness heard. Apparently, the recordings or witness testimony is somewhere in the evidence that has been or is going to be submitted in court. Not sure if it's part of the discovery items or not.

That said, I definitely thing the W's were serious in their threats to harm Reader, DeWine, etc. They brutally murdered 8 people in cold blood, so killing a few prosecutors, policemen or even innocent bystanders would not matter to them, IMO. These are depraved, violent killers who feel no remorse for what they did. They're not going to respect the lives of anyone else that stands in their way. Except maybe small children and dogs.

JMO

Those conversations in someone's home (likely FW's) are somewhere in the evidence, as recordings or witness interviews or wiretapping records or something. Wonder if its been given to the defense yet? If so, hope it makes them ready to take a plea offer.

 

[rsd1200]

Prosecution hasn't brought charges against them for the threats AFAIK. They just brought up the threats as evidence in the pre-trial hearing. If recordings, witness testimony, etc., it could be used against them during trials on the other charges. Who knows what all might be in recordings or what a witness heard. Apparently, the recordings or witness testimony is somewhere in the evidence that has been or is going to be submitted in court. Not sure if it's part of the discovery items or not.

That said, I definitely thing the W's were serious in their threats to harm Reader, DeWine, etc. They brutally murdered 8 people in cold blood, so killing a few prosecutors, policemen or even innocent bystanders would not matter to them, IMO. These are depraved, violent killers who feel no remorse for what they did. They're not going to respect the lives of anyone else that stands in their way. Except maybe small children and dogs.

JMO

Those conversations in someone's home (likely FW's) are somewhere in the evidence, as recordings or witness interviews or wiretapping records or something. Wonder if its been given to the defense yet? If so, hope it makes them ready to take a plea offer.

If they made "true threats" against DeWine's life, and a BCI officer's life, then they were ready to die for their cause. They'd have to get to them out in public. It's not the same as breaking into four trailers, in the middle of nowhere.

 

[IType]

Thank you for sifting through the autopsies and offering your insight. I have not read them. Is it possible, based upon what you have read, for her to have created the foam cap as she struggled for her last breaths? I don't recall if she was shot in the chest. TIA

HMR's cause of death was not shots to the chest. Per the citation below, the gunshots causing her death were to the head. I don't know if there were gunshot wounds anywhere else on her body.

Please don't be alarmed because the last link below references death (overdose) related to opioid drugs. We all know that HMR did not die as the result of a drug overdose, and I would never, ever suggest that she used drugs of any kind.

However, in my opinion, if she was prescribed an opioid for postpartum pain, then I think it is possible there could have been a similar "foam cone" produced at the time of death because of the prescribed medication in her system. Again, this is just my opinion.

references:
Hanna May Rhoden, 19, Daughter of Dana and Christopher Rhoden Sr.,
Mother of the surviving 4-day-old child, Multiple gunshot wounds to the head
Pike County, Ohio shootings - Wikipedia

Lactating mothers are often prescribed opioid medication to control pain after a Cesarean section or another painful surgery or condition... These guidelines recommend practices for managing lactating patients with pain management needs. They recommend doses of opioid medications that are safe for the breastfeeding infant
https://intermountainhealthcare.org/ext/Dcmnt?ncid=520732469

Interpretation of postmortem opioid concentrations requires correlation with medical history, scene investigation, and autopsy findings.
Complete Republication: National Association of Medical Examiners Position Paper: Recommendations for the Investigation, Diagnosis, and Certification of Deaths Related to Opioid Drugs

Another immediately identifiable sign of an opioid overdose is the foam cone.
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

 

[Jonas_Klein]

I overlooked this. Why on earth are there 600 photos from Freds?
Here's some more besides Fred's. Thankx for the link.....

A seven-page evidence list uncovered Thursday gets a little more specific. For example, the defense is asking to see:

• Hundreds of crime scene photos taken by investigators from all of the murder scenes
• Ballistic evidence
• Autopsies and X-ray photos for all eight Rhoden family victims
• Video and audio interviews taken with the Wagners
• Nearly 300 seized voicemails
• Cell tower records from Billy Wagner’s cellphone
• Nearly 600 photos from the search and seizure at the Flying W Farm
• One photo of George “Billy” Wagner’s tattoo
• A “Boondock Saints” video clip
• Records and photos from the evidence trailer searchers
• More than 500 photos from the Rhoden house searches

The list goes on.....PS.....These trials, when underway, will take forever to finish with this much evidence. Then X's by 4...!!!!

Very interesting info: if accurate, 600 pictures taken at FWF.

my speculation is, in addition to BPV, some items of interest would be found. We could imagine weapons, maybe a spot where they practiced shooting or a shed with toolings where they could have made a suppressor. All speculation.

 

[Cool Cats]

Can you please share how you know GW4 has tattoos? TY

To me it looks like tattoos on both forearms. This is only what I think from the photo. I would like to hear your opinion on it Loomis124. Yes it is an "iffy" photo, not definitive by any means.
Also, on Facebook he has a tattoo about 4 inches below his right shoulder. Can't tell what it is.

But the tattoo in evidence is GW3's, I'm sure there is no mistake about it. I think it's the scorpion. It appeared his attorney told him to hide it at one point in court.

https://media.wdtn.com/nxs-wdtntv-m...n_Pike_Co__Cou_0_63470188_ver1.0_1280_720.jpg

 

[Puzzles8]

To me it looks like tattoos on both forearms. This is only what I think from the photo. I would like to hear your opinion on it Loomis124. Yes it is an "iffy" photo, not definitive by any means.

https://media.wdtn.com/nxs-wdtntv-m...n_Pike_Co__Cou_0_63470188_ver1.0_1280_720.jpg

Wouldn't you love to see all his tattoos and know when he got them.

 

[Puzzles8]

To me it looks like tattoos on both forearms. This is only what I think from the photo. I would like to hear your opinion on it Loomis124. Yes it is an "iffy" photo, not definitive by any means.
Also, on Facebook he has a tattoo about 4 inches below his right shoulder. Can't tell what it is.

But the tattoo in evidence is GW3's, I'm sure there is no mistake about it. I think it's the scorpion. It appeared his attorney told him to hide it at one point in court.

https://media.wdtn.com/nxs-wdtntv-m...n_Pike_Co__Cou_0_63470188_ver1.0_1280_720.jpg

I'm not sure we can assume the tattoo picture in evidence is Billy's (GW3). It only refers to "George Wagner". Who knows?