OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) #19

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Have the medical people developed a way of telling a TOD within a 4 hour period? Last I knew, they could possibly narrow it down to a 4 hour period as the closest. Dr. G, Caylee's case.

I think it's possible if it was an 8 hour period between the deaths to some degree. Unless it has been developed more I think TOD may not be as helpful here. There won't be he died at 4 and she died at 4:15 am, from my understanding of autopsy from food digetsion, body temp etc...Correct me if I'm wrong experts, please. And it's always a plus or minus estimate.
I've searched several different pages. I didn't read every single word but I searched for the shortest window for an estimated time of death science can calculate and couldn't find that information but I'm going to continue looking later this evening.

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Have the medical people developed a way of telling a TOD within a 4 hour period? Last I knew, they could possibly narrow it down to a 4 hour period as the closest. Dr. G, Caylee's case.

I think it's possible if it was an 8 hour period between the deaths to some degree. Unless it has been developed more I think TOD may not be as helpful here. There won't be he died at 4 and she died at 4:15 am, from my understanding of autopsy from food digetsion, body temp etc...Correct me if I'm wrong experts, please. And it's always a plus or minus estimate.
I think there isn't a limit because in theory it could be as little as 1 minute or less. Let's say you walked out of a room and walked back in a minute later and someone had died there on the floor it would still be estimated because it wasn't witnessed. There is so many factors that come into play on calculating that information that it's almost impossible to actually pin point the precise time of actual death that any time is an estimate. You could even stop and question the clock hanging on an ER wall....

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It was 100% at Dana's. Her FB shows the inside of the new trailer and it is the same one where the video was shot.
 
I out of the
I think there isn't a limit because in theory it could be as little as 1 minute or less. Let's say you walked out of a room and walked back in a minute later and someone had died there on the floor it would still be estimated because it wasn't witnessed. There is so many factors that come into play on calculating that information that it's almost impossible to actually pin point the precise time of actual death that any time is an estimate. You could even stop and question the clock hanging on an ER wall....

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Being a nurse, when somebody dies in the hospital, if an employee is not in the room when the pt dies, then the TOD is listed when we discover the body. For example, if you were in Debbie's room at 1:30, and she was alive, and went back in her room at 1:50, and she had died, the TOD you would put on the paperwork and in your nsg notes would be 1:50.
If somebody is brought into the ER and dies in theER with both doc and nurses, the time of death would be whatever time the clock says, or if CPR is began when that person stops breathing or their heart stops, and is not revived, then TOD is listed when CPR is stopped.
 
Lividity starts when blood is no longer flowing through the body. The blood "pools" or "settles" at the lowest parts of the body due to gravity.
If a person dies while lying on their back, lividity would be seen in the back, the buttocks, the back of the legs and in the heels. After a period of 12 hours, the lividity will remain "fixed" and will not change.
There is a good bit of info at encyclopedia.com.
 
I out of the
Being a nurse, when somebody dies in the hospital, if an employee is not in the room when the pt dies, then the TOD is listed when we discover the body. For example, if you were in Debbie's room at 1:30, and she was alive, and went back in her room at 1:50, and she had died, the TOD you would put on the paperwork and in your nsg notes would be 1:50.
If somebody is brought into the ER and dies in theER with both doc and nurses, the time of death would be whatever time the clock says, or if CPR is began when that person stops breathing or their heart stops, and is not revived, then TOD is listed when CPR is stopped.
I understand what is procedure in a hospital or doctors office at the time of death. That is not what I am trying to explain. We were talking about the science of estimated time of death. I'll find sources later this evening so you can understand what I am trying to explain.

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I understand what is procedure in a hospital or doctors office at the time of death. That is not what I am trying to explain. We were talking about the science of estimated time of death. I'll find sources later this evening so you can understand what I am trying to explain.

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When a person dies at home or in a car, or outside, med personnel rely on body temp, lividity will be taken into consideration, the approx time the person was last known to be alive, amt of rigor mortis, if any. If the person died indoors, TOD would be a range of three to four hours, and be at least 75% correct, or more. If the person was found outside, the same methods for determining TOD, and doc would also keep in mind the time he had last been seen alive, if that info was available. Also condition of the body. If, for example, a person dies during a walk, if somebody said I saw him in grocery store at between four and four thirty today, and the person was found in the park at nine that night, that would help establish TOD. If the person was not found for a day or two, the police would probably ask the news caster to have people call them if they remember seeing that person after four thirty the day before, or however long they had been unaccounted for. In cases like that, also taking consideration the day and evening or nite temps, TOD could still be arrived at between three and twelve hours. I have never worked in forensics before, and science may have advanced more over the last 10 years that I have been working as a private duty nurse in a home setting. Hope this helps.
 
When a person dies at home or in a car, or outside, med personnel rely on body temp, lividity will be taken into consideration, the approx time the person was last known to be alive, amt of rigor mortis, if any. If the person died indoors, TOD would be a range of three to four hours, and be at least 75% correct, or more. If the person was found outside, the same methods for determining TOD, and doc would also keep in mind the time he had last been seen alive, if that info was available. Also condition of the body. If, for example, a person dies during a walk, if somebody said I saw him in grocery store at between four and four thirty today, and the person was found in the park at nine that night, that would help establish TOD. If the person was not found for a day or two, the police would probably ask the news caster to have people call them if they remember seeing that person after four thirty the day before, or however long they had been unaccounted for. In cases like that, also taking consideration the day and evening or nite temps, TOD could still be arrived at between three and twelve hours. I have never worked in forensics before, and science may have advanced more over the last 10 years that I have been working as a private duty nurse in a home setting. Hope this helps.
Yes, I read all of this info too. What my original reply was to a question posted earlier;

"Have the medical people developed a way of telling a TOD within a 4 hour period? Last I knew, they could possibly narrow it down to a 4 hour period as the closest. Dr. G, Caylee's case."

What I'm trying to get at is if you observed John Doe on a video with a time stamp of 12:00 am entering a bathroom in the waiting room of an ER and a doctor happened upon him in the bathroom dead at 12:15 am the estimated time of death would be would be between 12:00 am - 12:15 am. A window of 15 minutes, which would be shorter than the 4 hour window the questioner had stated. I searched several different articles this morning and could not find anywhere that estimated time of death could or couldn't be shorter than a 4 hour window. My post was an overall conclusion that I came to gathered on what I was able to read before getting ready for work.

Am I wrong?

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No, in the scenario you described, TOD would be listed on death cert as 12:15. There would be no way or no reason for the doc to try and estimate actual TOD as being 12:11. No way would a hypothesis be used or necessary.
 
When a person dies at home or in a car, or outside, med personnel rely on body temp, lividity will be taken into consideration, the approx time the person was last known to be alive, amt of rigor mortis, if any. If the person died indoors, TOD would be a range of three to four hours, and be at least 75% correct, or more. If the person was found outside, the same methods for determining TOD, and doc would also keep in mind the time he had last been seen alive, if that info was available. Also condition of the body. If, for example, a person dies during a walk, if somebody said I saw him in grocery store at between four and four thirty today, and the person was found in the park at nine that night, that would help establish TOD. If the person was not found for a day or two, the police would probably ask the news caster to have people call them if they remember seeing that person after four thirty the day before, or however long they had been unaccounted for. In cases like that, also taking consideration the day and evening or nite temps, TOD could still be arrived at between three and twelve hours. I have never worked in forensics before, and science may have advanced more over the last 10 years that I have been working as a private duty nurse in a home setting. Hope this helps.
DARN! You read that, and I arrived at everything from my knowledge as an LPN! You cheated! (ha,ha!)
 
No, in the scenario you described, TOD would be listed on death cert as 12:15. There would be no way or no reason for the doc to try and estimate actual TOD as being 12:11. No way would a hypothesis be used or necessary.
So can you answer the original question?

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No, in the scenario you described, TOD would be listed on death cert as 12:15. There would be no way or no reason for the doc to try and estimate actual TOD as being 12:11. No way would a hypothesis be used or necessary.
"Have the medical people developed a way of telling a TOD within a 4 hour period? Last I knew, they could possibly narrow it down to a 4 hour period as the closest. Dr. G, Caylee's case."

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Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader made it clear when testifying at a court hearing that the Rhoden family — and, specifically, the three children in the homes when eight people were murdered on April 22 — remain in danger.
He also said publicly today for the first time that investigators are looking for killers — plural — and not a single shooter, something authorities have implied but never confirmed.
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2016/08/04/Pike-County-homicides-custody-case.html
 
Have the medical people developed a way of telling a TOD within a 4 hour period? Last I knew, they could possibly narrow it down to a 4 hour period as the closest. Dr. G, Caylee's case.

I think it's possible if it was an 8 hour period between the deaths to some degree. Unless it has been developed more I think TOD may not be as helpful here. There won't be he died at 4 and she died at 4:15 am, from my understanding of autopsy from food digetsion, body temp etc...Correct me if I'm wrong experts, please. And it's always a plus or minus estimate.

I too have wondered about TOD. Blood splatter, was the blood dry/drying/liquid? Was blood still flowing from the victims? Were they still warm to touch? Yes I wondered that as well.

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/estimating-the-time-of-death.html

And also from the linked article Rigor Mortis.



eta
http://www.practicalhomicide.com/Research/LOmar2007.htm
 
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