OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) - #30

[Betty P]

If the families of the two had money, or were well respected, then I could see them getting off. A friend of mine, was shot, in broad daylight, in front of witness, was not the aggressor, and, to top it off, was unarmed, and nearly died, yet the other fella, a man of means, walked scott free. I don't even think the other guy spent a night in jail! The guy walked right up to him and shot him, in front of God and everybody.

Agree. The handling of the shatter lab case strongly indicates we're dealing with some corrupt LE, possibly prosecutors, etc. Possibly BCI,too. All JMO.

As for Wagners,I think they were involved peripherally, one may have been part of the murder crew. But there's no way they could have pulled off the whole thing themselves and not left evidence.

ETA: It also answers the question why none of the locals who might know about the Rhoden-Gilley murders haven't spoke up: because some of the people involved in or having knowledge of the murders work in law enforcement and government. They have no protection, no money for high paid legal representation, no bodyguards. It also explains why no one was put into a witness protection program. They want them right there in the community so they can watch them and make sure they're not talking.

 

[rsd1200]

I have always thought that JW was a really controlling type. When HR had the second baby and told him he was not the father, he went to the hospital (maybe he took S to see the new baby) but he took off the baby's sock to check that her toes did not carry the family trait. I was gobsmacked at that. How dare he remove a baby's sock, that wasn't his baby. I think that a paternity test was done at his instigation. I would have refused that.

I don't think they knew for sure that the baby wasn't his baby. If he went to the hospital, she likely let him hold the baby, and he slipped it's sock off. I inspected every inch of my grandkids, as did both parents, and watched all but one, enter this world.

HMR must have been comfortable with him coming to the hospital, and to the home, to pick up S, and drop her off, and they seemed to have a decent visitation agreement worked out. He may have been controlling, but, I think AW was more-so. I don't see anything wrong with asking for a paternity test if there was an overlap in dating. It's no different than a mother asking for a paternity test. It's a legal document that assures parental rights. If you think a child is yours, you'd want to know, and there were three potential fathers. We had a similar scenario, but the mom waited til the child was over a year old to tap potential fathers... fwiw, the child ended up being my son's. It came as a shock. Fathers have a right to know if they have kids out there.

I think that JW loved HMR, at least in the beginning, he was head over heels, and was hoping against hope that the second child was his, and if so, there was a chance that she'd come home to him. That's one reason that I hesitate on him being involved in these murders. Something happened to break them up, but before that, I think she was there at JW's home, a lot. This is why I think that AW had a problem with the breakup, and move to Alaska, w/o S. She had a single granddaughter, in a house full of hard tails. Her first grandchild, a female, and one who had practically lived with them. Then she's gone. Her son was driving otr so he got her when he was home, but she wasn't there on a daily basis. When my child moved, after we'd helped raise one of ours, in our home, for a few years, I was at a loss. The goal was for them to eventually move out, and be self-sufficient, but it still hurt.

 

[rsd1200]

Agree. The handling of the shatter lab case strongly indicates we're dealing with some corrupt LE, possibly prosecutors, etc. Possibly BCI,too. All JMO.

As for Wagners,I think they were involved peripherally, one may have been part of the murder crew. But there's no way they could have pulled off the whole thing themselves and not left evidence.

ETA: It also answers the question why none of the locals who might know about the Rhoden-Gilley murders haven't spoke up: because some of the people involved in or having knowledge of the murders work in law enforcement and government. They have no protection, no money for high paid legal representation, no bodyguards. It also explains why no one was put into a witness protection program. They want them right there in the community so they can watch them and make sure they're not talking.

Yeah, that bit with not offering them a deal, if they bring forth information, stinks, imo. I've been toying with the W theory but there's so much other stuff that is just so odd. I don't see a need to kill KR, if you aren't going to kill LM, who said right out, there was a custody issue. Then again, some stuff with JM don't add up. Who paid for his atty.? This will end up driving me crazy.

 

[Betty P]

Yeah, that bit with not offering them a deal, if they bring forth information, stinks, imo. I've been toying with the W theory but there's so much other stuff that is just so odd. I don't see a need to kill KR, if you aren't going to kill LM, who said right out, there was a custody issue. Then again, some stuff with JM don't add up. Who paid for his atty.? This will end up driving me crazy.

I'm there with you. :gaah:

There are links between people or an informal network of some sort, but many pieces are missing still.

On a slightly different tangent, I'm still shocked at the corruption that seems to have been a big part of Ohio awarding licenses for medical MJ grow ops. I still can't get over the company given a license in Parma, OH whose board member, son of a former AZ governor, has business and friendships to the Sinaloa Cartel. Perhaps Kasich can just arrange a grant from the state to Sinaloa to relocate their headquarters here.

I get the feeling there's this massive underground illegal economy in Ohio and the Rhoden murders were just a small part of some people doing business. The killings were both business and personal, IMO.

 

[rsd1200]

I'm there with you. :gaah:

There are links between people or an informal network of some sort, but many pieces are missing still.

On a slightly different tangent, I'm still shocked at the corruption that seems to have been a big part of Ohio awarding licenses for medical MJ grow ops. I still can't get over the company given a license in Parma, OH whose board member, son of a former AZ governor, has business and friendships to the Sinaloa Cartel. Perhaps Kasich can just arrange a grant from the state to Sinaloa to relocate their headquarters here.

I get the feeling there's this massive underground illegal economy in Ohio and the Rhoden murders were just a small part of some people doing business. The killings were both business and personal, IMO.

I agree, no matter who turns out to be the assailants, this case has sure pulled back the covers and shown that Ohio has an ugly underbelly. Pull back the covers on Kentucky, and we might see much the same, though. We've got some real pieces of work, in positions of power, in this state.

 

[Dudly]

Yeah, that bit with not offering them a deal, if they bring forth information, stinks, imo. I've been toying with the W theory but there's so much other stuff that is just so odd. I don't see a need to kill KR, if you aren't going to kill LM, who said right out, there was a custody issue. Then again, some stuff with JM don't add up. Who paid for his atty.? This will end up driving me crazy.

Could the claim of laser focus and the the searches have been an LE ploy to draw attention toward the Ws and away from someone else? It was done after they were out of state and people would say, yep, that is why they moved, they did it. It could have been done to show they were working on the case. The fact that LE does not have to be truthful in investigations could be at work here. Sealing all the evidence under court order should be questioned by everyone. They could be allowing a murderer to live next door to you by not giving out info that could identify them...
I think it was said that JM's wife put up her car for collateral to get a bail bondsman to pay the bail money.

 

[pearl]

http://www.wcpo.com/news/crime/ohio...-full-autopsy-reports-in-pike-county-massacre

Ohio Supreme Court will not order full autopsy reports released.

 

[Dudly]

I'm there with you. :gaah:

There are links between people or an informal network of some sort, but many pieces are missing still.

On a slightly different tangent, I'm still shocked at the corruption that seems to have been a big part of Ohio awarding licenses for medical MJ grow ops. I still can't get over the company given a license in Parma, OH whose board member, son of a former AZ governor, has business and friendships to the Sinaloa Cartel. Perhaps Kasich can just arrange a grant from the state to Sinaloa to relocate their headquarters here.

I get the feeling there's this massive underground illegal economy in Ohio and the Rhoden murders were just a small part of some people doing business. The killings were both business and personal, IMO.

It appears like about 1/4 of Ohio, the whole southeast quadrant, is corrupt and illegal dealings. Is that fact a part of this case? Too many will fall if all is known? Are other areas of Ohio like that? How many other states are similar?
I

 

[Dudly]

http://www.wcpo.com/news/crime/ohio...-full-autopsy-reports-in-pike-county-massacre

Wow, LE really can keep secrets better than the Federal Government.

 

[pearl]

I'm assuming that there really must be something in those mobile homes/camper that point to killers with this withholding of full autopsy reports and the expenses incurred in moving and storing the mobile homes/camper. Anyone know if this ruling by Ohio Supreme Court will be considered precedent setting in Ohio or has it happened before?

 

[Betty P]

http://www.wcpo.com/news/crime/ohio...-full-autopsy-reports-in-pike-county-massacre

Ohio Supreme Court will not order full autopsy reports released.

Here's another link:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/12/ohio_supreme_court_shields_ful.html

Not surprised at the decision, nor at the fact they decided to release it just before Christmas, when most people are focused on the holidays.

Justice Sharon Kennedy, writing for the minority, said the redactions on the Rhoden autopsies are inconsistent. In some cases, she wrote, details of victims' scars and tattoos were not redacted, while in others most or all that information was shielded.

The reports also don't contain any information about suspects, Kennedy said.

"The majority fails to recognize that the coroner is one degree removed from those law-enforcement officials who are empowered to investigate a murder," the justice wrote.

 

[Betty P]

Wow, LE really can keep secrets better than the Federal Government.

There's an old joke that the US Constitution stops at the Ohio state line.

It's what happens when the same group of politicians and businesses control state government for years and years. It's a feature, not a bug.

Now it's up to the news media to apply some pressure and bring justice. That's an iffy proposition, considering two of the best journalists covering the story have already lost their jobs.

ETA:

Adding link for the story from Cincinnati.com

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/ne...autopsy-reports-rhodens-not-public/951236001/

 

[Dudly]

This was an interesting exercise. I mention this case in a Facebook group that posts all the arrests in my county. I basically said that everyone should be concerned by how it was being handled and mentioned the secrecy. Every reply made was in favor of them keeping everything a total secret until it was solved. The possibility of a cover up was no concern. The fact that releasing info to have the public help find the suspects might help solve it was not as important as keeping it secret till solved. A couple made claims they knew much more about how investigations work than me and LE was doing the right thing...

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Thanks for the update on this. It sounds like it was totally unrelated then to the victims.

I wondered about the post office bust because when making shatter it takes large quantities of MJ to make it and I am pretty sure they could not grow enough to supply a shatter making operation so when hearing of the bust at the post office I had wondered if they were purchasing MJ from somewhere else just to make shatter out of it.

Unless there is some tie to the people involved with the post office bust and the victims then it sounds like it is unrelated and that theory can be crossed out.

BBM

I wouldn't really cross out the shatter lab theory. Although I don't think the post office bust had a connection to the murders, it is very possible that those two were buying some MJ from the R's. Though I read that generally the ones making shatter like to have the high grade MJ from California, it is not unreasonable to think they might buy it locally in a pinch.

In trying to find the MSM article I read about Junk dismissing the charges, I think it was in that local Watchman article, I found this MSM article. Although this was in Columbus Mississippi instead of Ohio, I still found it interesting as there are some very familiar last names in it.

3 arrested in post office drug bust - The Dispatch

 

[Flatbush]

There is something in at least one of those autopsy reports they REALLY don't want public. What though? This really leaves me scratching my head.

 

[Betty P]

This was an interesting exercise. I mention this case in a Facebook group that posts all the arrests in my county. I basically said that everyone should be concerned by how it was being handled and mentioned the secrecy. Every reply made was in favor of them keeping everything a total secret until it was solved. The possibility of a cover up was no concern. The fact that releasing info to have the public help find the suspects might help solve it was not as important as keeping it secret till solved. A couple made claims they knew much more about how investigations work than me and LE was doing the right thing...

Yes, people have a difficult time accepting that sometimes the secrecy is for nefarious reasons. The Ohio AG's office has spent an incredible amount of money to keep everything related to this case under wraps. They claim it's to help catch the killers, but here we are nearly 2 yrs later and they don't even a motive for the murders, let alone suspects. After a while, the public has to assume its likely there's some kind of cover up going on.

A good example of how secrecy by LE can be wrong is in the case of Rebecca Zahau. You can find a thread on her case here at WS. She was found nude, heavily bound hand and foot, hanging from a balcony at her billionaire boyfriend's mansion. Her death was quickly ruled a suicide by LE, allowing them to keep evidence from the public. They selectively submitted some evidence to the public and released an autopsy report that glossed over unusual wounds, signs of strangulation prior to hanging, etc. Years later, her family brought a civil suit and were able to get access to the evidence. When they had some of it tested, one of two knives found at the scene revealed that Ms Zahau had been vaginally raped with the handle of a steak knife. LE had tested it for DNA, but failed to note the handle also was covered with blood and cells from that area. Six years after her "suicide" her lawyers and the public finally learned she had been raped prior to "hanging herself". It was also revealed that DNA and fingerprinting was very selective, with many items not tested at all, including blood spatter.

So any time LE locks away evidence for a long period of time (and in this case claiming they don't know the motive or have suspects) its hard not to suspect they're hiding something. If evidence from the Rhoden case is ever examined by someone outside the investigation team, it's very possible it will point in the direction of the killers.

Two years is a long time to "investigate" without coming up with a motive for the crime, let alone suspects. It would be interesting to know how many investigators are still working on the case and how much time is spent on it.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Well said. They have to have enough evidence to convict...otherwise they WILL walk free forever. This has to be proven in a court of law. Thats where they are stuck. W's are in it up to their eyeballs.

I really do think that was the purpose of that very public raid on the W's property. If you think about it, LE has served numerous search warrants (per Reader and DeWine) in this case, but only the one on the W's property was accompanied by a virtual media circus. Makes you wonder who tipped off the media in this otherwise very secretive case. I can only assume that it came from PCSO or BCI since Reader and DeWine has been very tight lipped about everything else.

Then that very strange press conference where DeWine made his "laser focus" speech and asked for anyone who had any dealings with the W's regarding guns and ammo, resulting with the Anchorage and Kenai authorities being deluged with thousands of "sightings" of the W's in AK. In my opinion that little stunt by DeWine made sure that no one in Alaska, including LE would ever take their eye off the W's. I have been to AK and know how curious the people there are about strangers from the lower 48 and I feel that DeWine added suspicion to that native curiosity. I have a feeling that the W's "dream home" in AK is not really turning out the way they might have liked because of that "laser focus".

Then you have the Feds pulling them over searching their vehicles in every state from Ohio to Canada. Kind of all adds up to the equivalent of the W's being openly declared suspects, don't you think?

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Why won't DeWine or Reader do that?

BBM

On the flip side, we don't have any proof that the FBI and other Feds are not involved. Remember those searches of the W's by the feds in every state from Ohio to Canada that AW told about?

I found out recently, and I admit it was from a relative so it is not verified as fact, that the FBI are called in on all mass killings, no matter what the motive is for the murders. I had assumed they were only called in if it was suspected terrorism or had something to do with a federal crime.

 

[Betty P]

I really do think that was the purpose of that very public raid on the W's property. If you think about it, LE has served numerous search warrants (per Reader and DeWine) in this case, but only the one on the W's property was accompanied by a virtual media circus. Makes you wonder who tipped off the media in this otherwise very secretive case. I can only assume that it came from PCSO or BCI since Reader and DeWine has been very tight lipped about everything else.

Then that very strange press conference where DeWine made his "laser focus" speech and asked for anyone who had any dealings with the W's regarding guns and ammo, resulting with the Anchorage and Kenai authorities being deluged with thousands of "sightings" of the W's in AK. In my opinion that little stunt by DeWine made sure that no one in Alaska, including LE would ever take their eye off the W's. I have been to AK and know how curious the people there are about strangers from the lower 48 and I feel that DeWine added suspicion to that native curiosity. I have a feeling that the W's "dream home" in AK is not really turning out the way they might have liked because of that "laser focus".

Then you have the Feds pulling them over searching their vehicles in every state from Ohio to Canada. Kind of all adds up to the equivalent of the W's being openly declared suspects, don't you think?

The raids and DeWine's statements around the time the W's moved to AK seems more "defensive" to me. Here he was allowing them to leave the state without having even questioned them seriously or issued a search warrant prior to them leaving. JMO, the raids afterwards seemed part "theater" because they were followed by DeWine, et al refusing to question the W's. If he think's they're suspects, is he just expecting them to volunteer a confession and turn over any evidence they have?

Then there was the part about AG's office and PCSO lying to hide information about why and who was raided that weekend. Recall, they lied about sending a SWAT team to the elder W's farm until bystanders took photos of the SWAT vehicles driving in and out of Flying W Farm and posted them on the internet. Then, there's the fact that NO federal officers or assets were present at any of these SW raids. LE was so stretched for resources to cover the raid they had to reach out to officers at the local prison to help. SMH.

It would be interesting to know if any of the transcripts from the lengthy interviews the W's were subjected to in other states were shared with Ohio LE, or if they were even interested in knowing what other officers learned.

If W's are suspects, DeWine could have at least called them POI's, a legally safe term to use. He didn't.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

BBM

I agree with all of this. I think, that one thing that has made me look more at the Ws, is being over in the little Mariah Woods case. That case, like all kid cases, is heartbreaking. However, there are two kids left, that I worry about having some sort of life, and I'm not sure anyone in the family is capable of caring for them at the current point in time. It's bothered me and I'm just an onlooker. I went to my little grandchild's Christmas play last night, came home, thought about the Woods kids, and cried (and I don't cry, it just, happened...).

I thought about my child having to go to court to get supervised visitation set, for my grandchild's other parent. Had there not been funds from us, to hire a lawyer, it could have drug on forever, and it's possible the child could have been alone with the other parent when they ultimately took their own life. The other parent was not a horrible person. Troubled? Yes. People like my child, and Mariah's father, don't normally commit murder, over custody, because they know, for one, they'd not get away with it, so,# two, who'd be there for their child, afterwards? So, you don't see it often. It's usually familicide, if I can't have them, no one can have them, and then the parent offs themselves, too.

Although he'd made some very poor choices, that had left some negative impacts on our kids, I didn't kill my ex, either, his own habits did that (Not that I'm a perfect parent, because I am not. I don't think they exist.).

However, if AW spun a tale of S, potentially being abused by CR1 (As in, you know his Daddy did the same! That bloodline is tainted! for instance.), to rope them into helping, and combine that with possible jealousies that were already simmering under the surface? It could be possible. I think AW could be a vindictive person, and I'm not so sure the relationship between AM, and DR, was all that copacetic.

I'm still hesitant to point fingers at the Ws, as an absolute, though. Just been thinking about all the different family situations in these WS cases, and kids, and court, and custody,and high emotions, in my own family.

Here's one story, about a custody related murder, that I dug up. Has anyone else run across any?
http://www.cbs7.com/content/news/Re...d-man-to-gain-custody-of-child-440986583.html

I would advise reading Bitter Blood by Jerry Bledsoe. This crime shows how far some families, even very wealthy well respected one, will go to keep custody of children. It also is the quote about the "dark cloud" I have talked about in this case.

Amazon.com: Bitter Blood: A True Story of Southern Family Pride, Madness, and Multiple Murder eBook: Jerry Bledsoe: Kindle Store

I want to say this so I do not offend anyone. There are some families and regions in the USA, I am including my own region and state, where there are uneducated people who believe that certain things run in families. We have all heard it. One member of a family gets caught stealing, and suddenly the whole family is a den of thieves, although everyone else in that family is as honest as the day is long. One member of that family is convicted of child abuse/molestation and suddenly ...well you can finish the sentence.

I believe the M's or at least the branch we know, is one such family. So I can see AW easily manipulating certain members of it. Especially if those certain members already harbor bad feelings against the aforementioned family.

I cannot help thinking about that mention of BJM being a "special friend" in the obit of Clarence R, who we have verified was convicted of child molestation. I also cannot help thinking of LM referring to BJM as "childlike".

If JM already harbored bad feelings about something that might have went on between "childlike" BJM and Clarence R to warrant that "special friend" status, he may have been easily convinced that those things run in families and that someone CR1, FR, or even CR2 was guilty of the same thing with S, then I can see him falling into the manipulations of the wealthier and well respected W family.

Plus I believe it was reported in MSM that the reason JM gave for being at DR's so early the morning the murders were discovered was that he was going to pay DR a payment on a car he bought from the R's. That she sold instead of gave him a car could also been a small source of irritation to him.

We should all remember that JM was a focus of LE from day one, when the only vehicle we know of impounded by LE that day for forensics was JM"s. Add to that him being questioned many times and LM admitting that JM failed a polygraph.