OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) - #30

[RAISINISBACK]

But there was plenty of evidence: the big box of MJ shipped from California and the shatter lab at their home. I can guarantee that in the area where I live, men busted with that much evidence would have been arrested and charged. That sounds very much like a cover up of some sort. Apparently, that's just business as usual in Pike County. It raises some real red flags, especially when others in the area are busted, ticketed or jailed for much more minor offenses - like driving without a seat belt.

In fact, wouldn't shipping pot via US Mail be a federal offense?[/QUOTE]

BBM

It is indeed, and one that would bring postal inspectors en masse. But said postal inspectors would back off if DEA asked.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Agree. The handling of the shatter lab case strongly indicates we're dealing with some corrupt LE, possibly prosecutors, etc. Possibly BCI,too. All JMO.

As for Wagners,I think they were involved peripherally, one may have been part of the murder crew. But there's no way they could have pulled off the whole thing themselves and not left evidence.

ETA: It also answers the question why none of the locals who might know about the Rhoden-Gilley murders haven't spoke up: because some of the people involved in or having knowledge of the murders work in law enforcement and government. They have no protection, no money for high paid legal representation, no bodyguards. It also explains why no one was put into a witness protection program. They want them right there in the community so they can watch them and make sure they're not talking.

BBM

LM told us as much when he said "the case won't be solved in my lifetime" because "things have been covered up around here for years."

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I don't think they knew for sure that the baby wasn't his baby. If he went to the hospital, she likely let him hold the baby, and he slipped it's sock off. I inspected every inch of my grandkids, as did both parents, and watched all but one, enter this world.

HMR must have been comfortable with him coming to the hospital, and to the home, to pick up S, and drop her off, and they seemed to have a decent visitation agreement worked out. He may have been controlling, but, I think AW was more-so. I don't see anything wrong with asking for a paternity test if there was an overlap in dating. It's no different than a mother asking for a paternity test. It's a legal document that assures parental rights. If you think a child is yours, you'd want to know, and there were three potential fathers. We had a similar scenario, but the mom waited til the child was over a year old to tap potential fathers... fwiw, the child ended up being my son's. It came as a shock. Fathers have a right to know if they have kids out there.

I think that JW loved HMR, at least in the beginning, he was head over heels, and was hoping against hope that the second child was his, and if so, there was a chance that she'd come home to him. That's one reason that I hesitate on him being involved in these murders. Something happened to break them up, but before that, I think she was there at JW's home, a lot. This is why I think that AW had a problem with the breakup, and move to Alaska, w/o S. She had a single granddaughter, in a house full of hard tails. Her first grandchild, a female, and one who had practically lived with them. Then she's gone. Her son was driving otr so he got her when he was home, but she wasn't there on a daily basis. When my child moved, after we'd helped raise one of ours, in our home, for a few years, I was at a loss. The goal was for them to eventually move out, and be self-sufficient, but it still hurt.

BBM

HMR may have been comfortable with him coming to the hospital, but if you recall JW and DR got into an argument at the hospital that day. So not everyone was fine with him pulling off that baby's sock and checking it's toes.

Love can quickly turn to all consuming hate in a break up.

 

[rsd1200]

http://www.wcpo.com/news/crime/ohio...-full-autopsy-reports-in-pike-county-massacre

Ohio Supreme Court will not order full autopsy reports released.

Well, with TR going on record, it has made me even more curious. It sounds like something specific happened, beyond murder, within those trailers. The fact that it's not leaked out, is just amazing to me.

 

[rsd1200]

This was an interesting exercise. I mention this case in a Facebook group that posts all the arrests in my county. I basically said that everyone should be concerned by how it was being handled and mentioned the secrecy. Every reply made was in favor of them keeping everything a total secret until it was solved. The possibility of a cover up was no concern. The fact that releasing info to have the public help find the suspects might help solve it was not as important as keeping it secret till solved. A couple made claims they knew much more about how investigations work than me and LE was doing the right thing...

Interesting. If it means compromising the case, I agree, don't release. However, my lack of faith/trust in the justice system, politicians, and LE in general, likely causes me to be a bit more concerned.

 

[Betty P]

Interesting. If it means compromising the case, I agree, don't release. However, my lack of faith/trust in the justice system, politicians, and LE in general, likely causes me to be a bit more concerned.

Most likely, the only people with enough knowledge to leak that information are those in law enforcement and possibly the coroner and his assistant. The killers may be long gone. If they were local, someone would have leaked some details by now, especially as the case is going cold.

As for the autopsy reports, the dissenting judges on the Ohio Supreme Court reviewed the reports and said there was nothing in them that would compromise the case. That's why they voted to release them. The vote was 4-3. Apparently, LE wasn't able to make a case that there was critical info there for 3 of the judges. The reason the other 4 judges gave for keeping the reports redacted was to spare the families. IMO, they tried to make a case, but it must not have been entirely convincing.

That reminds me, we need to get a copy of the dissenting opinion to read the details of why 3 judges thought it was ok to release full reports.

I'm also suspicious of the timing of releasing the decision, right before Christmas on a day when they knew other news would dominate (vote to end net neutrality). If you're wondering whether DeWine, et al knew what day the FCC was going to take that vote, yes, he would be able to find out that information.

ETA: Correction: The decision was 3 justices concurring and 2 dissenting

 

[Betty P]

Link to decision for the case below. It includes opinions of those voting in favor of the decision and those dissenting. Dissenting opinion begins on page 24

https://supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod/docs/pdf/0/2017/2017-ohio-8988.pdf

{¶ 91}
A thorough review of the redacted and unredacted autopsy reports reveals inconsistencies in the redactions
.
For example, in some of the autopsy reports, detailed descriptions of the victim’s scars and tattoos is not redacted, while
in other reports, all or most of that information is redacted
.
The majority’s broadening of the CLEIR exception to
include subjective considerations like “investigative value” or use of the information in testing the credibility of tipsters will lead to an inconsistent application of the definition of CLEIR announced in Steckman and will add to the uncertainty that we sought to avoid in that case
.
SeeSteckman, 70 Ohio St.3d at 429, 639 N.E.2d 83.

{¶ 95}
Applying our two-step analysis and the definitive definition of CLEIR as announced in Steckman, I would hold that PCCO
has failed to prove that the information redacted from the autopsy reports at issue here falls within the definition of CLEIRbecause the information neither “pertains to a law enforcement matter” nor reveals “specific investigatory work product,” R.C. 149.43(A)(2)(c)

More at link, interesting reading.

Link to public statement from the court about the ruling

https://supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod/docs/pdf/0/2017/2017-ohio-9004.pdf

According to dissenting arguments, this decision will prevent the opening of all autopsy reports in Ohio when deaths are under investigation. That's kind of unusual in the US as law says AR's are public documents.

 

[Betty P]

Interesting. If it means compromising the case, I agree, don't release. However, my lack of faith/trust in the justice system, politicians, and LE in general, likely causes me to be a bit more concerned.

I have to agree with the dissenting justices in that the only argument Ohio BCI had for using the information in their investigation was the need to keep details confidential to rule out false confessions. That's a pretty lame excuse. They have all the details to use in the A/R's for investigation - revealing that information doesn't reduce their ability to investigate. Ruling out false confessions can be done with other evidence gathered from the crime scene. LE is allowed to keep crime scene and other evidence secret until its time for trial. The law clearly states that.

 

[Jennifer17]

I would love to know what was the content of the phone call DR got at work that night and upset her so much. I have often thought that it was because JW came and took SW. 10.30pm is a strange time to pick a toddler up.

 

[Betty P]

I would love to know what was the content of the phone call DR got at work that night and upset her so much. I have often thought that it was because JW came and took SW. 10.30pm is a strange time to pick a toddler up.

Agree, that's a red flag. JR was the last person known to see any of the victims alive IIRC

 

[rsd1200]

I would advise reading Bitter Blood by Jerry Bledsoe. This crime shows how far some families, even very wealthy well respected one, will go to keep custody of children. It also is the quote about the "dark cloud" I have talked about in this case.

Amazon.com: Bitter Blood: A True Story of Southern Family Pride, Madness, and Multiple Murder eBook: Jerry Bledsoe: Kindle Store

I want to say this so I do not offend anyone. There are some families and regions in the USA, I am including my own region and state, where there are uneducated people who believe that certain things run in families. We have all heard it. One member of a family gets caught stealing, and suddenly the whole family is a den of thieves, although everyone else in that family is as honest as the day is long. One member of that family is convicted of child abuse/molestation and suddenly ...well you can finish the sentence.

I believe the M's or at least the branch we know, is one such family. So I can see AW easily manipulating certain members of it. Especially if those certain members already harbor bad feelings against the aforementioned family.

I cannot help thinking about that mention of BJM being a "special friend" in the obit of Clarence R, who we have verified was convicted of child molestation. I also cannot help thinking of LM referring to BJM as "childlike".

If JM already harbored bad feelings about something that might have went on between "childlike" BJM and Clarence R to warrant that "special friend" status, he may have been easily convinced that those things run in families and that someone CR1, FR, or even CR2 was guilty of the same thing with S, then I can see him falling into the manipulations of the wealthier and well respected W family.

Plus I believe it was reported in MSM that the reason JM gave for being at DR's so early the morning the murders were discovered was that he was going to pay DR a payment on a car he bought from the R's. That she sold instead of gave him a car could also been a small source of irritation to him.

We should all remember that JM was a focus of LE from day one, when the only vehicle we know of impounded by LE that day for forensics was JM"s. Add to that him being questioned many times and LM admitting that JM failed a polygraph.

BBM
I'm going to get that book. It sounds very intriguing! Thanks for the tip!

There are certain things that do run in bloodlines. Some of it can be nature, some nurture, some a combo. Myself, and my female cousins, are extremely alike. Temperament wise, ways of dress, a wild streak runs through our family and all three of us females got it, and one of our male cousins. Two of are now deceased. We are all several years apart, and grew up in different areas, and didn't see each other often, so it's uncanny.

BJM would have been eleven when CRsr was accused the first time and it was then recanted. The papers had said that the victim was a teen, at the time. This is not to say that later on something didn't connect between them.

My inlaw's family members went on trial recently, for the murder of another family member, attempted murder of another, and child endangerment (the grandchildren were there, and ran for help). At least one, the family members will likely die in prison. They thought another family member had caused the death of their child (he did not). He'd stewed on it until, one day, he and spouse, went to the person's home, with said intention to mend things. That was not the case,though. it was just a ploy. Now their entire family has been ripped apart, their parents cannot do Christmas, nor hug their grandchildren or watfch their Christmas plays.

I've wondered about JM being there. It wasn't b/c his sister, LE, or father called him, that he was there, iirc. He said he was there to pay a payment. It was a Friday, after the time he should have been on the road for work. Was he unemployed at that time? Odd that he'd pay it prior to payday if they were truly living frugally (as it seems). I'd think he'd have gotten paid on Friday after work,and he'd been more flush with cash then. Him finding/seeing DR's body, and not going in to check on the others b/c he didn't want to see his niece "like that" (per his wife), just didn't add up to me, but, that's just me. I feel like, if in that position, I'd had to have gone in to see any of my family were still clinging life. I'd think that I might be help, by rendering aid. Did JM either know, or expect, that everyone in DR's house were all deceased, thus no need to enter? It seems so. BJM went rolling right up into two of the trailers and retrieved two children. Stone rolled right up into KR's camper, and even walked around the property, He must have felt very comfortable that the assailants had left. .

None of it makes sense.

 

[rsd1200]

BBM

HMR may have been comfortable with him coming to the hospital, but if you recall JW and DR got into an argument at the hospital that day. So not everyone was fine with him pulling off that baby's sock and checking it's toes.

Love can quickly turn to all consuming hate in a break up.

That's what I meant by there's a fine line between love and hate. Although DR may not have been copacetic with the sock removal, HMR may not have known if he was the father, or not, and thought nothing of it. It was only a bootie. Now if he'd removed the child's diaper to see if there was a common family birthmark on her butt, that, I'd think would be pushing the envelope. This was just a sock. Lots of folks like to take the little mitts and socks off of babies and look at their little hands and feet. So tiny, and cute! :loveyou:

 

[rsd1200]

Most likely, the only people with enough knowledge to leak that information are those in law enforcement and possibly the coroner and his assistant. The killers may be long gone. If they were local, someone would have leaked some details by now, especially as the case is going cold.

As for the autopsy reports, the dissenting judges on the Ohio Supreme Court reviewed the reports and said there was nothing in them that would compromise the case. That's why they voted to release them. The vote was 4-3. Apparently, LE wasn't able to make a case that there was critical info there for 3 of the judges. The reason the other 4 judges gave for keeping the reports redacted was to spare the families. IMO, they tried to make a case, but it must not have been entirely convincing.

That reminds me, we need to get a copy of the dissenting opinion to read the details of why 3 judges thought it was ok to release full reports.

I'm also suspicious of the timing of releasing the decision, right before Christmas on a day when they knew other news would dominate (vote to end net neutrality). If you're wondering whether DeWine, et al knew what day the FCC was going to take that vote, yes, he would be able to find out that information.

ETA: Correction: The decision was 3 justices concurring and 2 dissenting

I agree, there's something inside those trailers,that went down, that they don't want us to know. We know family went into CR1's & KR's trailer. BJM is leaving out info, imo, and so is Sttone. Fwiw, I distrust the Net Neutrality deal. Everyone says they just want the option. If you're not going to do it, why shuck out all of cash to have the ability?

 

[Betty P]

I agree, there's something inside those trailers,that went down, that they don't want us to know. We know family went into CR1's & KR's trailer. BJM is leaving out info, imo, and so is Sttone. Fwiw, I distrust the Net Neutrality deal. Everyone says they just want the option. If you're not going to do it, why shuck out all of cash to have the ability?

Agree, even DS revealed details of what he saw in KR's camper. The Manley siblings saw some of the interior of the other homes. I tend to think Leonard would have revealed something if there was anything unusual in those (other than a horrific crime scene). I'm still not sure whether there was a message or something similar left behind. It's also possible LE doesn't want to allow anyone in to avoid knowledge of other evidence pointing to killers. Kind of like LE in the Rebecca Zahau case hiding the fact that she had been raped with the handle of one of the knives left behind.

I just keep going back to the Steubenville rapes when LE tried to cover up involvement of football players in the rape and were only revealed when an anonymous hacker revealed new information.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/anonymous-vs-steubenville-20131127

Interesting, the guy who did that was from KY.

Deric helped expose a horrible crime and cover-up, and he is facing five times more jail time than the rapists? It's disgusting and it's a wake up call for our entire nation."

Unbeknownst to Lostutter, the two groups had launched an online petition in his defense, and gathered over 400,000 signatures. Now they invited him to come with them to Columbus hand it over, in person, to the Ohio Attorney General. "'That sounds cool," he told them. He'd go, but on one condition. "I'll need armed security," he said, "People want to kill me."

They agreed to his request. Lostutter went on eBay and bought a new Guy Fawkes mask for $10. He drove up to Columbus with his brother and his girlfriend. Outside the Attorney General's office, Anons had gathered to support him. From behind his Guy Fawkes mask, Lostutter thanked the crowd then removed it to show his face at last. "I feel more powerful speaking with the mask off," he says, "'cause it's, like, me."

Another article. Lostutter was sentenced to 2 yrs in prison for revealing the cover up

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/ne...ubenville-rape-case-gets-two-years-in-prison/

KnightSec's involvement in the Steubenville case

The sexual assault case was already getting local attention by that time, but KnightSec defaced the hacked website and left a message threatening to expose the names of those involved in the assault, and of various school and law enforcement officials, which the hackers believed had covered up the case.

They followed through with their threats at the start of 2013, when they leaked videos from the night of the sexual assault, which they found stored on the hacked website.

The videos sparked a wealth of interest in the case from national media, and KnightSec followed through with a series of interviews for CNN, Rolling Stones, and others.

KnightSec's hacking activity and interference in the case's criminal investigation led to the FBI picking up their trail. This didn't take too long, and by June 2013, the FBI had raided the homes of Lostutter and McHugh.

Link to Lostutter's video revealing the cover up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzkvkD4cKnI

 

[RAISINISBACK]

BBM
I'm going to get that book. It sounds very intriguing! Thanks for the tip!

There are certain things that do run in bloodlines. Some of it can be nature, some nurture, some a combo. Myself, and my female cousins, are extremely alike. Temperament wise, ways of dress, a wild streak runs through our family and all three of us females got it, and one of our male cousins. Two of are now deceased. We are all several years apart, and grew up in different areas, and didn't see each other often, so it's uncanny.

BJM would have been eleven when CRsr was accused the first time and it was then recanted. The papers had said that the victim was a teen, at the time. This is not to say that later on something didn't connect between them.

My inlaw's family members went on trial recently, for the murder of another family member, attempted murder of another, and child endangerment (the grandchildren were there, and ran for help). At least one, the family members will likely die in prison. They thought another family member had caused the death of their child (he did not). He'd stewed on it until, one day, he and spouse, went to the person's home, with said intention to mend things. That was not the case,though. it was just a ploy. Now their entire family has been ripped apart, their parents cannot do Christmas, nor hug their grandchildren or watfch their Christmas plays.

I've wondered about JM being there. It wasn't b/c his sister, LE, or father called him, that he was there, iirc. He said he was there to pay a payment. It was a Friday, after the time he should have been on the road for work. Was he unemployed at that time? Odd that he'd pay it prior to payday if they were truly living frugally (as it seems). I'd think he'd have gotten paid on Friday after work,and he'd been more flush with cash then. Him finding/seeing DR's body, and not going in to check on the others b/c he didn't want to see his niece "like that" (per his wife), just didn't add up to me, but, that's just me. I feel like, if in that position, I'd had to have gone in to see any of my family were still clinging life. I'd think that I might be help, by rendering aid. Did JM either know, or expect, that everyone in DR's house were all deceased, thus no need to enter? It seems so. BJM went rolling right up into two of the trailers and retrieved two children. Stone rolled right up into KR's camper, and even walked around the property, He must have felt very comfortable that the assailants had left. .

None of it makes sense.

BBM

That is not to say that CRsr did not do something to BJM that was not reported to the authorities, but that JM knew about. It is my opinion that was not CRsr's first rodeo (it never is with child molesters) just the first time he was arrested. If JM knew about an earlier incident involving BJM I feel it would color his opinion of all of the R's but especially CR1 and KR who stood by their father. And conveniently CR1 and KR were two of the murder victims. Also since BJM was "childlike" there could have been an incident in her 20's or even 30's in which JM saw her as being taken "advantage" of by CRsr. There are a lot of people out there that literally hate child molesters, we have seen that on the MW thread, and would happily hang the molester whether they know the child or not. JM could be one such person, especially if CRsr did something to one of his sisters. That "special friend" status in CRsr's obit was an odd mention to say the least, in an obit anyway. I feel like if JM knew about other children CRsr had molested that was not reported, he would have been more apt to believe the same thing of Crsr's sons or grandsons. In such a scenario JM would have been more susceptible to suggestions from someone in a more wealthy and well respected family as to the same thing happening to S. JMO of course.

Given the fact that the R's were giving BJM cars, but insisted he pay for his may have caused resentment in him.

O/T: Try putting your keyboard face down in the top rack of your dishwasher and running it through a cycle. Then let it dry thoroughly.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

That's what I meant by there's a fine line between love and hate. Although DR may not have been copacetic with the sock removal, HMR may not have known if he was the father, or not, and thought nothing of it. It was only a bootie. Now if he'd removed the child's diaper to see if there was a common family birthmark on her butt, that, I'd think would be pushing the envelope. This was just a sock. Lots of folks like to take the little mitts and socks off of babies and look at their little hands and feet. So tiny, and cute! :loveyou:

BBM

Yes I understood that as what you were saying, I might do that myself even, but I am thinking there were some words said prior to or during that examination of baby's toes that set off an argument between DR and JW. Or DR may have just plain didn't want him anywhere around the baby or HR at that time.

That phone call DR got the night of the murders where she was upset and crying and reportedly told a co-worker she made a mistake, could have been because of that argument between her and JW a couple of days prior. She may have meant she made a mistake by arguing with him.

JMO

 

[rsd1200]

BBM

That is not to say that CRsr did not do something to BJM that was not reported to the authorities, but that JM knew about. It is my opinion that was not CRsr's first rodeo (it never is with child molesters) just the first time he was arrested. If JM knew about an earlier incident involving BJM I feel it would color his opinion of all of the R's but especially CR1 and KR who stood by their father. And conveniently CR1 and KR were two of the murder victims. Also since BJM was "childlike" there could have been an incident in her 20's or even 30's in which JM saw her as being taken "advantage" of by CRsr. There are a lot of people out there that literally hate child molesters, we have seen that on the MW thread, and would happily hang the molester whether they know the child or not. JM could be one such person, especially if CRsr did something to one of his sisters. That "special friend" status in CRsr's obit was an odd mention to say the least, in an obit anyway. I feel like if JM knew about other children CRsr had molested that was not reported, he would have been more apt to believe the same thing of Crsr's sons or grandsons. In such a scenario JM would have been more susceptible to suggestions from someone in a more wealthy and well respected family as to the same thing happening to S. JMO of course.

Given the fact that the R's were giving BJM cars, but insisted he pay for his may have caused resentment in him.

O/T: Try putting your keyboard face down in the top rack of your dishwasher and running it through a cycle. Then let it dry thoroughly.

BBM

I totally agree that all of this is possible. That at part about believing someone else that it could happen, is what we think happened in the extended family situation. The man and woman who perpetrated the crime had never, ever, had a criminal background, no history violence, raised their family in church, etc... but it seems that there may have been folks egging him on. Well, if that was my kid, I'd handle it myself. After about two years of that, and then the results turned up accidental, and some folks had kept whispering in their ears, the family lost control out of grief combined with thinking the other folks truly were the cause of their child's death.

O/T: I'll be sure and try that. :laughing: My space bar is now sticking along with my "v" key. Soooo annoying.

 

[rsd1200]

BBM

Yes I understood that as what you were saying, I might do that myself even, but I am thinking there were some words said prior to or during that examination of baby's toes that set off an argument between DR and JW. Or DR may have just plain didn't want him anywhere around the baby or HR at that time.

That phone call DR got the night of the murders where she was upset and crying and reportedly told a co-worker she made a mistake, could have been because of that argument between her and JW a couple of days prior. She may have meant she made a mistake by arguing with him.

JMO

Based on the potential for an argument at the hospital,(there's also the possibility that at least one of the other potential fathers showed up and a commotion ensued), and the phone call at the nursing home, I wish I could see the comments on her last post on her FB that night. It read "People will come and go, but God will never leave you." and it was posted at 12:53 a.m. on 4/22/16. There were 14 comments.

Does anyone else have a snapshot of the comments?

 

[rsd1200]

Agree, even DS revealed details of what he saw in KR's camper. The Manley siblings saw some of the interior of the other homes. I tend to think Leonard would have revealed something if there was anything unusual in those (other than a horrific crime scene). I'm still not sure whether there was a message or something similar left behind. It's also possible LE doesn't want to allow anyone in to avoid knowledge of other evidence pointing to killers. Kind of like LE in the Rebecca Zahau case hiding the fact that she had been raped with the handle of one of the knives left behind.

I just keep going back to the Steubenville rapes when LE tried to cover up involvement of football players in the rape and were only revealed when an anonymous hacker revealed new information.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/anonymous-vs-steubenville-20131127

Interesting, the guy who did that was from KY.



Another article. Lostutter was sentenced to 2 yrs in prison for revealing the cover up

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/ne...ubenville-rape-case-gets-two-years-in-prison/



Link to Lostutter's video revealing the cover up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzkvkD4cKnI

I have zero doubt, that if something about this case, would cause blow-back on a county with an already sketchy LE past, that they'd not try and hide it in a heartbeat.

 

[rsd1200]

Another thought, LM was adamant that DR and JM were extremely close. Just how close, only LM and JM knows. He doesn't make that same comment about BJM, who was actually given a car to drive, and who was grilled by LE as well, and also asked to take poly. Did LE keep JM's truck, since he bought the other one, on which that they planted the "bug"? As, I think Raisin mentioned, could it have been AM? They weren't blood kin to her.