OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) #32

[rsd1200]

I agree about the barn and them building it. IMO, AW as a strong woman, was following in her mother-in-laws footsteps. Flying W Farms was a success and brought the elder Wagner's prestege and money in the community. Kinda of a strange name to pick for your farm "Defiance Farms", who was she defying ? Why would you build a brand new barn when you were planning on moving to Alaska all the time? A lien was put on their property for money owned on the building of that barn. They owed a little more than 5,000.00 on it. Most times, when building something, you need a deposit of some sort down, for buying materials to build.

AW herself, said the name was based on them defying the use of food sources that were not natural, for themselves and their animals (iirc). She was a bit defiant that folks dared to wonder.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Or, somebody in a red truck took the evidence for a long ride in another direction. If this was pretty well planned, I think the evidence was long gone before BJM went to CR1's place that morning.

That sure would help account for all of those miles driven in such a short time.

Maybe that was the tip LE got. Could someone have seen that truck leaving the vicinity of either UHR, LFR, or Either of the W farms on the morning of the murders?

 

[rsd1200]

Sometimes I’m convinced it’s BOTH-business ties and a scorned ex. I often wonder if two parties had a common interest of anger towards this family and then conspired together.

But then, I think that sounds really crazy and I think I’ve lost my mind for even thinking that. Usually the more people involved in a murder, the quicker they’re caught cause it’s hard to keep many mouths quiet, unless they have a deep rooted loyalty to one another.

You can join me over here in crazy world, I swear, I have not gone a single day without studying over this case. Whoever did this needs to be locked up, under the jail, and the key tossed away. I think it may have been you, but someone said that three of the adults, weren't even adults to them. Same here. To me, whoever did this, killed four adults, and four children. Then I think of poor little B and wonder how long he sat there, how long was he awake, all the hysteria that had to be around there after BJM found him and his brother. Poor little guy. Then if it is the Ws, little S's world will come crashing down again, and she and her cousin may have to go to foster care, so I really don't want it to be the Ws, but there's some strange stuff going on there.

 

[rsd1200]

That sure would help account for all of those miles driven in such a short time.

Maybe that was the tip LE got. Could someone have seen that truck leaving the vicinity of either UHR, LFR, or Either of the W farms on the morning of the murders?

That's what I've been wondering. Did someone out that night catch sight of it, or did a video cam that they missed, or a neighbor's cam, catch it cruising past. A truck would be the perfect vehicle too b/c of the ability to jump in, and out, of the boot end. No having to completely stop, no doors opening or closing, just hop out and hop back in as it comes back round. When they were done, they took a very long drive, and maybe even laid low, in another state for awhile.

 

[molly1255]

Thank you. Just part of life, it made me stronger.

What you went through shouldn't be a part of life, because it is just plain wrong and so very unfair. I'm glad you survived this and have grown stronger.

 

[Dudly]

You can join me over here in crazy world, I swear, I have not gone a single day without studying over this case. Whoever did this needs to be locked up, under the jail, and the key tossed away. I think it may have been you, but someone said that three of the adults, weren't even adults to them. Same here. To me, whoever did this, killed four adults, and four children. Then I think of poor little B and wonder how long he sat there, how long was he awake, all the hysteria that had to be around there after BJM found him and his brother. Poor little guy. Then if it is the Ws, little S's world will come crashing down again, and she and her cousin may have to go to foster care, so I really don't want it to be the Ws, but there's some strange stuff going on there.

I have hoped for the sake of SW that her dad is not involved in any way. She has been through SO MUCH already. The level of secrecy they have been able to achieve is scary. Just think of the number of people that were investigating just the day of the murders and not one has leaked a word. This is over and above what the federal government can achieve with a Top Secret rating. If it can be done in Pike County, it can be done any where. Makes you wonder what has happened in your area that no one knows about.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I don't know about the Rhoden's and Wagner's fight for custody. But in my case, it really wasn't about our child. After years of abuse by him, I finally got enough strength and guts to leave him. I had threatened to leave many times and had actually applied for a divorce years before I finally left. When it actually happened he just wouldn't believe that I was really serious and at first expected that I would return to him and that I was just bluffing again. When the truth finally hit him that I wasn't coming back, he used our child in a custody battle to hurt me and get me back. So it wasn't about our child, it was about his revenge against me. This was Hell on earth for me and he knew it. Could JW and his family be this way?

BBM

I am sorry you had to go through that. A lot of marriages end this way. It's a tit for tat you kill my dog and I'll kill your cat situation. And it continues on no matter who gets hurt. Sadly it is usually the children who are forced to take sides that end up hurt. Either way they go, they lose a parent.

I have seen so many separated and divorced couples and heard so many stories that I don't think anything done during a divorce would surprise me. The only surprise is that my career isn't even remotely connected to marriage counseling, but it seems like the first thing they do after a split is call me.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

You know we've talked about since the beginning of this, that the purchase of Dana's new home was the straw that broke the camels back. That is starting to make since for me now. Maybe JW didn't go there that night just to pick S up. Maybe with help, he was there to take her and have his revenge.

I have always thought that the one house the killers had to have a key at was FR's.

We don't know if CR or KR left their door unlocked, and we suspect that DR may have opened the door for the killer since she was found within eyesight of the front door being opened (at least her feet and legs were per AM) but FR would not have left the door unlocked with a 3 year old sleeping on the couch in the living room.

Unless the 3 year old let them in because he knew them, but then again how did they know the 3 year would be there since it was a last minute arrangement.

So they had to have a key. And maybe KR was the only one who knew who had an extra key to that door.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I truly believe this, and not dropped off in the usual path to Alaska. I think they took a scenic route. There are millions of places in between. I mean, they were on vacation.

There are places on the Trans Alaskan highway that I feel sure have never seen the footstep of a human. Many deep, deep ravines just off the edge of the highway. In some places you could open the passenger side door and step out into space. Really easy to chuck whatever you want out the window without even stopping the vehicle. And there is little to no traffic on that highway most of the time.

It would be impossible to search those ravines for a weapon too. Too hazardous to searchers who would also need to have skills in rock climbing.

I am sure the W's knew this, as it has been reported they had been to Alaska a few times before the move. I am betting they had a place all picked out.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I'm so sorry you had to endure that man. There are more like him out there. Thankfully you had the courage to leave, unfortunately, many find that they can't make the break, and I feel for them.

If they'd found HMR, CR2, and DR, deceased, at the one home, I'd have immediately thought that either "it's complicated" man on DR's fb relationship status, or the daughter's bf, had went plumb buck nuts and killed everyone in one home, like some of these other folks in the news and on WS. I'd have thought, find the bf, or the father, and he's probably already dead via suicide, in his car, somewhere up in a holler.

I kept waiting when the news broke here, for them to find the shooter in that holler, or among the deceased. They didn't. Like most around here, I feel it was very personal, with a lot of anger/hate, but, that doesn't mean that business ties, nor someone wanting no ex, to deal with, because they want to move to AK with their parents, isn't part of the hate visited on these folks.

But more than a few times the ex doesn't just kill whoever is in one house, they go around to other relatives houses and kill them also. Sometimes driving from town to town to do so. Killing their ex, their kids, the parents, siblings and grandparents of the ex and in one case one guy even drove to a different town to kill his ex's cousin and her husband.

It's like the threat of "If you leave me I'll hunt you down and kill you" doesn't cut it any more, now it's "If you leave me I'll hunt down your entire family and kill them before I kill you, so you know they are dead before you go."

I suspect this is what happened in the R case.

 

[molly1255]

I have always thought that the one house the killers had to have a key at was FR's.

We don't know if CR or KR left their door unlocked, and we suspect that DR may have opened the door for the killer since she was found within eyesight of the front door being opened (at least her feet and legs were per AM) but FR would not have left the door unlocked with a 3 year old sleeping on the couch in the living room.

Unless the 3 year old let them in because he knew them, but then again how did they know the 3 year would be there since it was a last minute arrangement.

So they had to have a key. And maybe KR was the only one who knew who had an extra key to that door.

JMO

Either a key, or would JW's visit to see HR have coincided with the time the mother of F's child was dropped off?

ETA: JW said he picked up S around 10:30 P.M. and I don't think this is the reason he was there, because I think he already had S. The ex-gf of FR dropped off their child around 10:30 PM that night, too. JW may have seen the ex gf dropping the child off at FR's. FR's ex gf may have seen JW at DR's home, too, and that might explain why JW had to come up with a reason for having been at DR's home - and said he was there to pick up S. AW later corrected that and said he got S the week prior.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

But more than a few times the ex doesn't just kill whoever is in one house, they go around to other relatives houses and kill them also. Sometimes driving from town to town to do so. Killing their ex, their kids, the parents, siblings and grandparents of the ex and in one case one guy even drove to a different town to kill his ex's cousin and her husband.

It's like the threat of "If you leave me I'll hunt you down and kill you" doesn't cut it any more, now it's "If you leave me I'll hunt down your entire family and kill them before I kill you, so you know they are dead before you go."

I suspect this is what happened in the R case.

Absolutely. And it’s also part of covering their tracks. They have to kill anyone who would point the finger at them and have first hand knowledge of the threats.

In regards to your other post, I think it’s very possible KR may have had a key to the homes.

I also think KR May have been a liability because he had first hand knowledge of whatever the motive is in these murders.

 

[RichP]

There are places on the Trans Alaskan highway that I feel sure have never seen the footstep of a human. Many deep, deep ravines just off the edge of the highway. In some places you could open the passenger side door and step out into space. Really easy to chuck whatever you want out the window without even stopping the vehicle. And there is little to no traffic on that highway most of the time.

It would be impossible to search those ravines for a weapon too. Too hazardous to searchers who would also need to have skills in rock climbing.

I am sure the W's knew this, as it has been reported they had been to Alaska a few times before the move. I am betting they had a place all picked out.

JMO

Raisin, I have to disagree. Here's why.

People aren't going to risk driving thousands of miles with a weapon that is related to a octuple murder in their possession. Particularly when you're crossing the US to Canada border. Bringing a hand gun into Canada is a HUGE no-no if you're caught. Why take the chance? There are a zillion places to dispose of things around where they used to live.

My guess is that the people that did this had their disposal sites picked out before a trigger was ever pulled and it wasn't very far away. Who wants to be stopped by the police for some minor thing with stuff in your vehicle linking you to eight murders?

 

[Betty P]

Raisin, I have to disagree. Here's why.

People aren't going to risk driving thousands of miles with a weapon that is related to a octuple murder in their possession. Particularly when you're crossing the US to Canada border. Bringing a hand gun into Canada is a HUGE no-no if you're caught. Why take the chance? There are a zillion places to dispose of things around where they used to live.

My guess is that the people that did this had their disposal sites picked out before a trigger was ever pulled and it very far away. Who wants to be stopped by the police for some minor thing with stuff in your vehicle linking you to eight murders?

Agree, the killers probably planned in advance how and where they would get rid of weapons and anything else they used in the murders. Recall, GR's father said there were at least 2 types of guns used for the murders at CR1's place, so there were probably multiple weapons to dispose of. Probably also needed to dispose of bloody clothing, etc. Also wondering how they kept from getting blood on the interior of the vehicle(s) they used. The killers very likely were covered in blood by the end of the murders.

ETA: Also add disposal of "burner" cell phones and possibly burglary tools used for breaking into homes, too.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Rich P,

Since you posted today, I’m curious if you’re thoughts are still the same as what they were when this happened? Do you still think believe these murders were drug related in some way?

I just wanna pick your brain [emoji12] I’ve tried to get on board with the drug theories, I just don’t see it and I don’t know why.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

JMHO, there would NOT have been burglary tools since authorities said there were no signs of forced entry.

I also don’t believe burner phones would be hard to get rid off. Most are cheap. I’m doubtful that someone purchased an expensive burner phone for these crimes, but more than likely purchased one that was average price. They could easily have thrown a burner phone in a fire along with the clothes they wore.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Absolutely. And it’s also part of covering their tracks. They have to kill anyone who would point the finger at them and have first hand knowledge of the threats.

In regards to your other post, I think it’s very possible KR may have had a key to the homes.

I also think KR May have been a liability because he had first hand knowledge of whatever the motive is in these murders.

BBM

Or they knew he had keys to CR1's and FR's homes and they killed him to get the keys that they knew he had. After all who would know if keys to the other homes were taken from his trailer.

That could be the clue that ties KR to the rest.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Raisin, I have to disagree. Here's why.

People aren't going to risk driving thousands of miles with a weapon that is related to a octuple murder in their possession. Particularly when you're crossing the US to Canada border. Bringing a hand gun into Canada is a HUGE no-no if you're caught. Why take the chance? There are a zillion places to dispose of things around where they used to live.

My guess is that the people that did this had their disposal sites picked out before a trigger was ever pulled and it wasn't very far away. Who wants to be stopped by the police for some minor thing with stuff in your vehicle linking you to eight murders?

BBM

You are absolutely right and I agree. They would have had a problem getting it into Canada.

I am not thinking before I type today.

 

[Betty P]

JMHO, there would NOT have been burglary tools since authorities said there were no signs of forced entry.

I also don’t believe burner phones would be hard to get rid off. Most are cheap. I’m doubtful that someone purchased an expensive burner phone for these crimes, but more than likely purchased one that was average price. They could easily have thrown a burner phone in a fire along with the clothes they wore.

It's ok if we disagree.

I think it's possible some kind of tools were used in some cases to open back doors or windows. IIRC, the quotes about no signs of forced entry came from LM. They may or may not be accurate. LE may have told him that in hopes of scaring him or his family into admitting complicity. As many of us have ascertained, LE probably erroneously focused on other family members in the beginning.

Yes, burner phones would possibly have been used and disposed of. I'm basing my opinion about the killers on similar murders in the area:

Candace Newsome & her daughter

http://wchstv.com/news/local/police-release-names-of-mother-daughter-found-dead-in-scioto-county

http://www.nbc4i.com/news/politics/...amily-who-lost-mother-and-daughter/1114371092

Dr. Kevin Lake

http://www.dispatch.com/news/20170926/who-fatally-shot-pill-mill-doctor-in-his-new-albany-area-home

There's also the similarities with the deaths of the Eapmons in KY

Recall, the bedroom window at CR1's trailer was open that morning.

Putting cell phones, clothing and other evidence in a fire is risky. Unless the killers are able to generate a high temp fire and supervise the burning closely, parts of clothing and cell phones would likely remain. JMO. Yes, I know the local gentry are probably skilled at building bonfires for wiener roasts, etc. It doesn't make first time mass murderers experts at getting rid of all the evidence.

But I do think they may have kept the red truck as a way to later set up JM. I still can't figure out why LE didn't go after the owner of that truck sometime in the year before it was sold to JM. There's so much that LE does and doesn't do about this case that makes no sense at all.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

It's ok if we disagree.

I think it's possible some kind of tools were used in some cases to open back doors or windows. IIRC, the quotes about no signs of forced entry came from LM. They may or may not be accurate. LE may have told him that in hopes of scaring him or his family into admitting complicity. As many of us have ascertained, LE probably erroneously focused on other family members in the beginning.

Yes, burner phones would possibly have been used and disposed of. I'm basing my opinion about the killers on similar murders in the area:

Candace Newsome & her daughter

http://wchstv.com/news/local/police-release-names-of-mother-daughter-found-dead-in-scioto-county

http://www.nbc4i.com/news/politics/...amily-who-lost-mother-and-daughter/1114371092

Dr. Kevin Lake

http://www.dispatch.com/news/20170926/who-fatally-shot-pill-mill-doctor-in-his-new-albany-area-home

There's also the similarities with the deaths of the Eapmons in KY

Recall, the bedroom window at CR1's trailer was open that morning.

Putting cell phones, clothing and other evidence in a fire is risky. Unless the killers are able to generate a high temp fire and supervise the burning closely, parts of clothing and cell phones would likely remain. JMO. Yes, I know the local gentry are probably skilled at building bonfires for wiener roasts, etc. It doesn't make first time mass murderers experts at getting rid of all the evidence.

But I do think they may have kept the red truck as a way to later set up JM. I still can't figure out why LE didn't go after the owner of that truck sometime in the year before it was sold to JM. There's so much that LE does and doesn't do about this case that makes no sense at all.

I know LM said it , but the mention of no forced entry was mentioned here as well.

Authorities have said from the very first press conference the killings were methodically planned, taking place in the dark of night while many of the victims slept. The killers stole past several dogs on the properties and there were no signs of forced entry.

Perhaps that’s just clever wording on behalf of Chris Graves though. I’m not sure.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cincinnati.com/amp/94294522

In regards to the The Eapman murders, I’ve read about that case several times. There are eery similarities -the killer being familiar with the house, killing two adults in their sleep (one considered the target).

However there was a 12 year old left alive. But in the Rhoden murders, a 16 year old was murdered. Both of those kids were in the homes of their parents when shot.

If they’re related, why leave a 12 year old alive but kill a 16 year old in another homicide?

Doug Eapman was also involved prior in interstate pill trafficking. LE said he was selling drugs again.

Candy Newsome was said to be dealing pills as well.

LE has never stated the Rhoden’s were selling drugs. What they did say about a organized grows, they later said they didn’t believe was related to the murders.

IMO-selling pills is a lot different than growing weed. The two things are as different as night and day.

So, I guess where I’m coming from, IF all of these cases are related, then IMO the Rhoden’s would’ve been handling more things than marijuana.

And how do the 4 W’s come into play with all of that? I mean, I have seen accounts of certain situations involving the elders horses and what they were said to be used for at one time, but I don’t know that to be fact. And that’s not the 4 W’s with a laser focus on them.

As far as being an expert bonfire builder, I really don’t think that’s a factor. Wood burns slow, clothes burn to nothing very quick.

While we are on the subject, anyone know when trash day was for the W’s? Did they have local trash service? I mean if they weren’t looked at for a year, heck they could’ve thrown any evidence away. It’s not like LE would find it in a landfill, especially this late in the game.

I’m truly not disagreeing. I take no offense to different opinions and thoughts. I actually think that’s a good thing-it keeps this case talked about. Guests viewing are more likely to read an open ws thread with conversations that are ongoing, rather than old threads and it keeps the most recent thread at the top of google searches.

One more question, for anyone really, I’m headed back to read the autopsy reports again, but wasn’t it only CRsr & GR that didn’t have the mention of a toe tag? Could it be because they had shoes on at the time their body’s were found?