GUILTY OH - Steubenville Rape Case, 11 Aug 2012 #2

[believe09]

WS is victim friendly, and not only was she the alleged victim of alleged rapes, the ruling says she was the actual victim of actual rapes.

I guess I will wait for the mods to weigh in on how much more dissecting should be done of the victim.

 

[JeannaT]

The girl is an honor student and I think that says something about her. I doubt she is a wild party girl. I suspect instead she was a fan of some players who took advantage of and abused her for her admiration of them. They and their friends did a smear campaign on the girl to justify their own sleazy behavior. I suspect the Feds and the State will now do a mop up on Steubenville. The town will be made an example. However this is not just one morally bankrupt town. The mentality did not originate in Ohio. Disrespect for women in America is at an all time high. Kind of reflects the trash sold to kids by the mass media.

I sometimes feel like I live in a different world from many on this forum.

When i was in high school this was pretty typical. There weren't date rape drugs, but it's not at all clear that was used here - in fact, it seems to me her behavior indicates she was drinking only. We also didn't have the cameras and technology to take and distribute images like this.

The behavior, though, was the same at football parties. The guys would get together and drink themselves into a stupor, and a few girls would be there and get passed around and many (guys and girls) would be face down in vomit by the wee hours.

Then, next weekend it would all start up over again. The difference - IMHO - is there weren't images for sober people to look at in shock.

 

[rob]

She already LIVES in "another state". She is from WV, not OH.

I know she lives in WV, but it is still a neighboring town. A little distance may do her a lot of good. Damn, you people nit-pick.

 

[LisaB]

(SNIP)
When I was date raped by a guy in our community, there were a couple of his friends who believed him (and his girlfriend!!!)

(SNIP) (They wouldn't prosecute because is was considered a "date rape" at the time.)

(SNIP) That said-I put myself in the dangerous position of getting drunk with the wrong guy and being alone with him. But I didn't want sex with him. I just wanted to make out a little bit and have some fun. I hardly even knew him, but trusted him because he was a "friend-of-a-friend." But that doesn't condone or excuse anything he did to me.

I had a similar situation about 30 years ago. I was a freshman in college and had always been pretty sheltered. In fact, I lived at home and commuted because my parents were THAT overprotective. There was a cute guy in my late-afternoon Algebra class and once in a while we'd chat after class. One evening, after DST had ended, we talked a bit and he asked me to go to a movie with him the following week (he belonged to a fraternity and lived in the House, so he was more tuned in to activities on campus than I was). I was excited, and hated to end the conversation to go home, but knew my mother would be wondering why I was late.

When I excused myself to leave, he asked me where I had parked. Because I did not have a class until after 10 that day, I had been forced to park in one of the more desolate parking lots. Because it was becoming dark, he offered to walk me to my car, since it was a long way, and a female walking alone to a deserted lot after dark was vulnerable. All he asked was that I drive him to the dining hall on my way off campus.

I wasn't really worried about walking alone on campus, but if he wanted to walk with me, and we could spend a few more minutes together, I was happy. When we got to my car, things got really ugly really fast. I did not do anything to encourage him, no alcohol was involved, and there could have been no question in his mind that what he did amounted to rape. He literally tore the buttons off my blouse, pinned my head under the armrest, and when it was over, and he noticed I was bleeding, he said "Oh well, there had to be a 'first time'."

At the time, "date rape" didn't exist as a concept. I had agreed to go out with the guy, so it was clear I liked him and was attracted to him. He was a BMOC, so he could have probably had sex with a lot less drama, so I wasn't sure what to think. Furthermore, he did not get out of the car, as he still expected me to drive him to the dining hall (which I did). I couldn't let my parents find out (they would have blamed me) and although I did not tell anyone, or conduct a survey, I know most of his frat would have backed him up with an alibi, or by claiming they too had slept with me. While I had not planned have sex with him that day or anytime soon, there was a possibility that, had we dated a while, we MIGHT have evolved into an intimate relationship. How could I argue that he had raped me?

The day we had planned to see the movie, we had a test in class. I finished quickly, and sat in the hall to wait for him. 30 minutes later, he came out of the room, with his arm around a girl I knew from rushing sororities, and walked by like I didn't exist. The NEXT time the class met, I noticed that she appeared to be about 7 months pregnant, though she wore clothes that disguised her condition.

At that point I was mad, but did not "decide" it was rape ONLY after finding out I had been "used." I found out I had been used a week AFTER I was raped. Things have changed a lot. I'd never hesitate to report him if it happened today, but at the time, I was concerned I would not be believed, and may even have doubted that it was REALLY rape, since it was a guy I "liked".

 

[PrettyWoman86]

I had a similar situation about 30 years ago. I was a freshman in college and had always been pretty sheltered. In fact, I lived at home and commuted because my parents were THAT overprotective. There was a cute guy in my late-afternoon Algebra class and once in a while we'd chat after class. One evening, after DST had ended, we talked a bit and he asked me to go to a movie with him the following week (he belonged to a fraternity and lived in the House, so he was more tuned in to activities on campus than I was). I was excited, and hated to end the conversation to go home, but knew my mother would be wondering why I was late.

When I excused myself to leave, he asked me where I had parked. Because I did not have a class until after 10 that day, I had been forced to park in one of the more desolate parking lots. Because it was becoming dark, he offered to walk me to my car, since it was a long way, and a female walking alone to a deserted lot after dark was vulnerable. All he asked was that I drive him to the dining hall on my way off campus.

I wasn't really worried about walking alone on campus, but if he wanted to walk with me, and we could spend a few more minutes together, I was happy. When we got to my car, things got really ugly really fast. I did not do anything to encourage him, no alcohol was involved, and there could have been no question in his mind that what he did amounted to rape. He literally tore the buttons off my blouse, pinned my head under the armrest, and when it was over, and he noticed I was bleeding, he said "Oh well, there had to be a 'first time'."

At the time, "date rape" didn't exist as a concept. I had agreed to go out with the guy, so it was clear I liked him and was attracted to him. He was a BMOC, so he could have probably had sex with a lot less drama, so I wasn't sure what to think. Furthermore, he did not get out of the car, as he still expected me to drive him to the dining hall (which I did). I couldn't let my parents find out (they would have blamed me) and although I did not tell anyone, or conduct a survey, I know most of his frat would have backed him up with an alibi, or by claiming they too had slept with me. While I had not planned have sex with him that day or anytime soon, there was a possibility that, had we dated a while, we MIGHT have evolved into an intimate relationship. How could I argue that he had raped me?

The day we had planned to see the movie, we had a test in class. I finished quickly, and sat in the hall to wait for him. 30 minutes later, he came out of the room, with his arm around a girl I knew from rushing sororities, and walked by like I didn't exist. The NEXT time the class met, I noticed that she appeared to be about 7 months pregnant, though she wore clothes that disguised her condition.

At that point I was mad, but did not "decide" it was rape ONLY after finding out I had been "used." I found out I had been used a week AFTER I was raped. Things have changed a lot. I'd never hesitate to report him if it happened today, but at the time, I was concerned I would not be believed, and may even have doubted that it was REALLY rape, since it was a guy I "liked".

I'm sorry that had to happen to you. I think there should be more education about date rape in sex ed classes.

 

[bexlex]

I had a similar situation about 30 years ago. I was a freshman in college and had always been pretty sheltered. In fact, I lived at home and commuted because my parents were THAT overprotective. There was a cute guy in my late-afternoon Algebra class and once in a while we'd chat after class. One evening, after DST had ended, we talked a bit and he asked me to go to a movie with him the following week (he belonged to a fraternity and lived in the House, so he was more tuned in to activities on campus than I was). I was excited, and hated to end the conversation to go home, but knew my mother would be wondering why I was late.

When I excused myself to leave, he asked me where I had parked. Because I did not have a class until after 10 that day, I had been forced to park in one of the more desolate parking lots. Because it was becoming dark, he offered to walk me to my car, since it was a long way, and a female walking alone to a deserted lot after dark was vulnerable. All he asked was that I drive him to the dining hall on my way off campus.

I wasn't really worried about walking alone on campus, but if he wanted to walk with me, and we could spend a few more minutes together, I was happy. When we got to my car, things got really ugly really fast. I did not do anything to encourage him, no alcohol was involved, and there could have been no question in his mind that what he did amounted to rape. He literally tore the buttons off my blouse, pinned my head under the armrest, and when it was over, and he noticed I was bleeding, he said "Oh well, there had to be a 'first time'."

At the time, "date rape" didn't exist as a concept. I had agreed to go out with the guy, so it was clear I liked him and was attracted to him. He was a BMOC, so he could have probably had sex with a lot less drama, so I wasn't sure what to think. Furthermore, he did not get out of the car, as he still expected me to drive him to the dining hall (which I did). I couldn't let my parents find out (they would have blamed me) and although I did not tell anyone, or conduct a survey, I know most of his frat would have backed him up with an alibi, or by claiming they too had slept with me. While I had not planned have sex with him that day or anytime soon, there was a possibility that, had we dated a while, we MIGHT have evolved into an intimate relationship. How could I argue that he had raped me?

The day we had planned to see the movie, we had a test in class. I finished quickly, and sat in the hall to wait for him. 30 minutes later, he came out of the room, with his arm around a girl I knew from rushing sororities, and walked by like I didn't exist. The NEXT time the class met, I noticed that she appeared to be about 7 months pregnant, though she wore clothes that disguised her condition.

At that point I was mad, but did not "decide" it was rape ONLY after finding out I had been "used." I found out I had been used a week AFTER I was raped. Things have changed a lot. I'd never hesitate to report him if it happened today, but at the time, I was concerned I would not be believed, and may even have doubted that it was REALLY rape, since it was a guy I "liked".

Your story is ringing so many bells in my head. Thank you for sharing this with us...it makes me want to grab that guy by the neck and ....:furious:

ETA: Do you think the times have changed or are we just older and wiser? I can remember feeling that unless you were wearing a habit and chastity belt, you didn't have a prayer in court. Also, the ends could never justify the means: better to sweep it under the rug than put yourself through the agony of "accusing" someone.

 

[LisaB]

:waitasec: On purpose? I am confused.

Not purposely pushing buttons, but purposely asking questions that may make people uncomfortable? If newlyweds become intoxicated at their reception, is anyone guilty of "rape" if they consummate the marriage before sobering up?

And why are there different legal blood alcohol contents and ages of (sexual) consent depending upon where you live? Are people more sober at .09 in states that have set the bar at .10, than those who are driving at .09 in states where the limit is .08? Are 14 year olds in one state "less childlike" than those in a state where the age of consent is 16?

It seems sort of arbitrary.

 

[JeannaT]

I had a similar situation about 30 years ago. I was a freshman in college and had always been pretty sheltered. In fact, I lived at home and commuted because my parents were THAT overprotective. There was a cute guy in my late-afternoon Algebra class and once in a while we'd chat after class. One evening, after DST had ended, we talked a bit and he asked me to go to a movie with him the following week (he belonged to a fraternity and lived in the House, so he was more tuned in to activities on campus than I was). I was excited, and hated to end the conversation to go home, but knew my mother would be wondering why I was late.

When I excused myself to leave, he asked me where I had parked. Because I did not have a class until after 10 that day, I had been forced to park in one of the more desolate parking lots. Because it was becoming dark, he offered to walk me to my car, since it was a long way, and a female walking alone to a deserted lot after dark was vulnerable. All he asked was that I drive him to the dining hall on my way off campus.

I wasn't really worried about walking alone on campus, but if he wanted to walk with me, and we could spend a few more minutes together, I was happy. When we got to my car, things got really ugly really fast. I did not do anything to encourage him, no alcohol was involved, and there could have been no question in his mind that what he did amounted to rape. He literally tore the buttons off my blouse, pinned my head under the armrest, and when it was over, and he noticed I was bleeding, he said "Oh well, there had to be a 'first time'."

At the time, "date rape" didn't exist as a concept. I had agreed to go out with the guy, so it was clear I liked him and was attracted to him. He was a BMOC, so he could have probably had sex with a lot less drama, so I wasn't sure what to think. Furthermore, he did not get out of the car, as he still expected me to drive him to the dining hall (which I did). I couldn't let my parents find out (they would have blamed me) and although I did not tell anyone, or conduct a survey, I know most of his frat would have backed him up with an alibi, or by claiming they too had slept with me. While I had not planned have sex with him that day or anytime soon, there was a possibility that, had we dated a while, we MIGHT have evolved into an intimate relationship. How could I argue that he had raped me?

The day we had planned to see the movie, we had a test in class. I finished quickly, and sat in the hall to wait for him. 30 minutes later, he came out of the room, with his arm around a girl I knew from rushing sororities, and walked by like I didn't exist. The NEXT time the class met, I noticed that she appeared to be about 7 months pregnant, though she wore clothes that disguised her condition.

At that point I was mad, but did not "decide" it was rape ONLY after finding out I had been "used." I found out I had been used a week AFTER I was raped. Things have changed a lot. I'd never hesitate to report him if it happened today, but at the time, I was concerned I would not be believed, and may even have doubted that it was REALLY rape, since it was a guy I "liked".

I'm so sorry that happened to you. Reminds me of the late 80's, early 90's, when Date Rape was often a topic on college and high school campuses. At University of Texas, the Panhellenic Council (Fraternity and Sorority Leadership) held a series of forums about date rape education. At the time I was a fresh graduate with a sociology/psych degree and helped lead the forums and guide the conversations. WHAT AN EDUCATION - and that's where I get many of my beliefs now about how confusing sexuality can be for both men and women.

The men in leadership came to the table truly wanting to understand, and especially keep their fraternities from running afoul and getting a reputation for being a bunch of rapists. So in meeting with the fraternity leadership it became clear - many had great hearts, and were working on the problem but truly were confused about what girls wanted and how to read girls signals. (Obviously there are cases where the signal is loud and clear, but usually it seems it's not that clear). The guys wanted a clear signal - yes or no, and they would be fine with that. They complained that the girls would say no but want them to keep going. (Which is true). They claimed the girls wanted to be persued and wanted to be forced a little. Which is true. They claimed that when girls made it clear the answer was NO, they backed off. (Which was usually true, listening to the girl's feedback). So the guys would just keep going until the girl made it clear that the answer was NO.

In talking to the girls, they agreed that all these were problems but they didn't want to give a clear "yes". They thought that made them look easy and slutty, and felt they would be less respected if they gave in without a bit of a push back and several instances of removing wandering hands. The guys agree with that, too, that's what they were seeing. The girls would tell them no several times and then appear to change their minds to yes.

Also, girls would say they didn't say no clearly because they didn't want to appear to be a prude or be not liked.

We ended up, the facilitators and the Panhellenic council more confused as to the solution than ever before. The girls don't want to be clear, and the guys are happy to just keep taking and taking until the answer is a clear no.

And that's the dance. Meanwhile, one of the most popular country songs was "When I say No I mean maybe when I say maybe I mean yes". Clear as mud.

 

[LisaB]

I know she lives in WV, but it is still a neighboring town. A little distance may do her a lot of good. Damn, you people nit-pick.

Sorry. Didn't mean to. I just know she was referred to as a "classmate" in earlier press.

 

[LisaB]

I'm so sorry that happened to you. Reminds me of the late 80's, early 90's, when Date Rape was often a topic on college and high school campuses. At University of Texas, the Panhellenic Council (Fraternity and Sorority Leadership) held a series of forums about date rape education. At the time I was a fresh graduate with a sociology/psych degree and helped lead the forums and guide the conversations. WHAT AN EDUCATION - and that's where I get many of my beliefs now about how confusing sexuality can be for both men and women.

The men in leadership came to the table truly wanting to understand, and especially keep their fraternities from running afoul and getting a reputation for being a bunch of rapists. So in meeting with the fraternity leadership it became clear - many had great hearts, and were working on the problem but truly were confused about what girls wanted and how to read girls signals. (Obviously there are cases where the signal is loud and clear, but usually it seems it's not that clear). The guys wanted a clear signal - yes or no, and they would be fine with that. They complained that the girls would say no but want them to keep going. (Which is true). They claimed the girls wanted to be persued and wanted to be forced a little. Which is true. They claimed that when girls made it clear the answer was NO, they backed off. (Which was usually true, listening to the girl's feedback). So the guys would just keep going until the girl made it clear that the answer was NO.

In talking to the girls, they agreed that all these were problems but they didn't want to give a clear "yes". They thought that made them look easy and slutty, and felt they would be less respected if they gave in without a bit of a push back and several instances of removing wandering hands. The guys agree with that, too, that's what they were seeing. The girls would tell them no several times and then appear to change their minds to yes.

Also, girls would say they didn't say no clearly because they didn't want to appear to be a prude or be not liked.

We ended up, the facilitators and the Panhellenic council more confused as to the solution than ever before. The girls don't want to be clear, and the guys are happy to just keep taking and taking until the answer is a clear no.

And that's the dance. Meanwhile, one of the most popular country songs was "When I say No I mean maybe when I say maybe I mean yes". Clear as mud.

I am going way off topic here, but I have a "pet peeve" that I want to express. As recently as a week ago (I think on Glee?) and quite often on other programs, I hear people referring to a lot of the 1980s John Hughes films as being really romantic. There's that image of John Cusack with the boombox over his head outside the home of the girl he is pursuing. It is even on T-Shirts! Every time I hear someone present this as an example of "romance" and "persistence paying off" I cringe. People... isn't continuing to chase someone who has said NO tantamount to STALKING? That seems to have been a HUGE theme in 80s films. The idea that we can't look back now and recognize the behavior as unhealthy, and even continue to see it as romantic worries me. A lot.

 

[JeannaT]

I am going way off topic here, but I have a "pet peeve" that I want to express. As recently as a week ago (I think on Glee?) and quite often on other programs, I hear people referring to a lot of the 1980s John Hughes films as being really romantic. There's that image of John Cusack with the boombox over his head outside the home of the girl he is pursuing. It is even on T-Shirts! Every time I hear someone present this as an example of "romance" and "persistence paying off" I cringe. People... isn't continuing to chase someone who has said NO tantamount to STALKING? That seems to have been a HUGE theme in 80s films. The idea that we can't look back now and recognize the behavior as unhealthy, and even continue to see it as romantic worries me. A lot.

Um hmm, I agree. And this is now WAY down a rabbit hole, but have you ever read a harlequin romance? There's a rape scene in everyone of them. And women read them.

 

[PrairieWind]

Not purposely pushing buttons, but purposely asking questions that may make people uncomfortable? If newlyweds become intoxicated at their reception, is anyone guilty of "rape" if they consummate the marriage before sobering up?

And why are there different legal blood alcohol contents and ages of (sexual) consent depending upon where you live? Are people more sober at .09 in states that have set the bar at .10, than those who are driving at .09 in states where the limit is .08? Are 14 year olds in one state "less childlike" than those in a state where the age of consent is 16?

It seems sort of arbitrary.

There are different BAC levels based up on what each State's legislature deems appropriate, and the same for age of consent. These are state issues, not federal. It is the responsibility of people going to various states to learn what the law is. Even if the federal government did set a national standard, that would also be completely arbitrary.

The BAC level in a state is usually a level at which a person is deemed too intoxicated to drive or "under the influence of alcohol". It does not control intoxication for consent to sex. That level is usually determined from the totality of the circumstances and would typically probably be a much higher concentration of alcohol.

 

[bexlex]

I will admit I felt bad for them - but I was also wondering if their tears were from remorse over their evil conduct, or remorse over getting caught? I also felt bad that they didn't have a better moral compass and I wondered where they got the attitude that it was okay to treat another human being like that and call it funny?

This whole case has really shocked me as to what kids are capable of and willing to laugh about. It's scary.

Salem

What is wrong with me that I wasn't shocked? The behavior in the tape was all too familiar to me... except there weren't cell phones in my day to record the conversations. Those kids remind me of the scummy guys at the dorm who would never shut up. I always thought those jerks were lying through there teeth....but I guess they weren't.

 

[bexlex]

I'm so sorry that happened to you. Reminds me of the late 80's, early 90's, when Date Rape was often a topic on college and high school campuses. At University of Texas, the Panhellenic Council (Fraternity and Sorority Leadership) held a series of forums about date rape education. At the time I was a fresh graduate with a sociology/psych degree and helped lead the forums and guide the conversations. WHAT AN EDUCATION - and that's where I get many of my beliefs now about how confusing sexuality can be for both men and women.

The men in leadership came to the table truly wanting to understand, and especially keep their fraternities from running afoul and getting a reputation for being a bunch of rapists. So in meeting with the fraternity leadership it became clear - many had great hearts, and were working on the problem but truly were confused about what girls wanted and how to read girls signals. (Obviously there are cases where the signal is loud and clear, but usually it seems it's not that clear). The guys wanted a clear signal - yes or no, and they would be fine with that. They complained that the girls would say no but want them to keep going. (Which is true). They claimed the girls wanted to be persued and wanted to be forced a little. Which is true. They claimed that when girls made it clear the answer was NO, they backed off. (Which was usually true, listening to the girl's feedback). So the guys would just keep going until the girl made it clear that the answer was NO.

In talking to the girls, they agreed that all these were problems but they didn't want to give a clear "yes". They thought that made them look easy and slutty, and felt they would be less respected if they gave in without a bit of a push back and several instances of removing wandering hands. The guys agree with that, too, that's what they were seeing. The girls would tell them no several times and then appear to change their minds to yes.

Also, girls would say they didn't say no clearly because they didn't want to appear to be a prude or be not liked.

We ended up, the facilitators and the Panhellenic council more confused as to the solution than ever before. The girls don't want to be clear, and the guys are happy to just keep taking and taking until the answer is a clear no.

And that's the dance. Meanwhile, one of the most popular country songs was "When I say No I mean maybe when I say maybe I mean yes". Clear as mud.

May I ask if you were an undergraduate in the greek system at that time? I can tell you with certainty that the above is not what resulted in the weekly gang rapes that occurred inside fraternity houses.

 

[JeannaT]

May I ask if you were an undergraduate in the greek system at that time? I can tell you with certainty that the above is not what resulted in the weekly gang rapes that occurred inside fraternity houses.

I wasn't in the greek system. I graduated from a different university and was living and working here with an agency that shared volunteers and speakers with the Rape Crisis center, who funded the forums.

If you mean "weekly gang rapes", do you mean similar incidents to the Steubenville case? Because yes, that scene happens in college towns and high school parties every weekend. I'm with the people in this thread who really don't understand why the public in general is surprised to hear these details. I'm not surprised.

 

[Tsunvirtual]

I know I am just pushing people's buttons here, but... most wedding receptions include alcohol, and many a bride (and groom) celebrates to excess. One would assume that, LONG before the date of the actual wedding, she "implied consent" to have sexual relations with her groom on that occasion, and in fact, fully intended to do so even if she consumes enough alcohol to be unable to "legally consent". Would the newlyweds be expected to abstain from sexual relations on their wedding night if one of them had too much to drink?

Repectfully snipped for space

To follow your argument you would have to assume that one of the newlyweds would claim the other raped them. Also the newlyweds would have a reasonable expectation of privacy. Their sexual encounter would not be filmed, tweeted about spread all over the internet. If one of the newlyweds digitally penetrated the other in their inebriated state and posted it on the internet it might very well result in an annulment as well as a rape charge.

You are comparing apples to oranges. :twocents:

 

[Salem]

Guys - it appears some of this discussion regarding date rape might belong in the Jury Room. Please feel free to start a thread there and continue.

This thread is about the Steubenville Rape case and some of the discussion, although not intended, appears to be questioning the actions of the victim. That discussion doesn't belong here.

These boys knew she was too drunk to consent or to even know what was happening to her. They knew what they were doing was wrong as evidenced by all the photos and text messages they sent back and forth.

It was not the victim's fault.

Thanks,

Salem

 

[LisaB]

There are different BAC levels based up on what each State's legislature deems appropriate, and the same for age of consent. These are state issues, not federal. It is the responsibility of people going to various states to learn what the law is. Even if the federal government did set a national standard, that would also be completely arbitrary.

The BAC level in a state is usually a level at which a person is deemed too intoxicated to drive or "under the influence of alcohol". It does not control intoxication for consent to sex. That level is usually determined from the totality of the circumstances and would typically probably be a much higher concentration of alcohol.

I was discussing two different issues, age of consent and level of blood alcohol, as two issues that seemingly SHOULD be governed by a national standard. I may leave a party with a BAC of .09 in a state where the legal limit is .10, then cross into a state where the limit is .08. In the first state I was not breaking a law. In the other, I was. It seems that there should be some basis in reason for age of consent AND (separate issue) legal BAC. It sounds as if we (as a nation) can't come to an agreement on what constitutes "old enough" or "too drunk."

 

[Peepers McPeep]

Fifty Bucks says I can guess what the first word these young men would scream if they just happen to fall asleep in the prison and someone decides to insert a finger somewhere permission had not been granted...any takers?

:violin:
RR!

:fence: :floorlaugh: I think I strained my grin muscle!
My Physical therapy bill will be 50 buck-a-roonies..ahem.

 

[LisaB]

May I ask if you were an undergraduate in the greek system at that time? I can tell you with certainty that the above is not what resulted in the weekly gang rapes that occurred inside fraternity houses.

I was a freshman, undergraduate. I rushed the sororities, but ultimately decided not to pay people to be my friends. This coincided with my being asked to join the one I wanted because someone else had declined their offer and there was room for one more.

I lived at home. I did not spend weekends on campus, and attended one frat party the entire time I was at college, and it was actually at Johns Hopkins, not my college, and was a Halloween party i attended with friends.

I don't mean to say that there weren't weekly gang rapes at the houses, but I was in my own car in a school parking lot at 5pm on a Thursday.