GUILTY OH - Steubenville Rape Case, 11 Aug 2012 #2

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JeannaT said:
I've just got to say, I'm still so torn on hearing this case.

I had a horrible experience - probably as many mothers of sons have had - with a girl who came to a party and drank herself nearly to death with alcohol she brought and a couple of my son's friends now have criminal records for minor in possession of alcohol (her alcohol, actually). She stripped herself naked and got in the hot tub and they rescued her from the hot tub, dressed her, and took her home to her mother. She had to be treated in the ER because she was so wasted. She herself feels awful about this - but she wasn't charged with anything. My own son, who hadn't had ANYTHING to drink and did nothing wrong whatsoever and helped this girl get home safely had to go to the ER and pay $500 (that's 5 hundred dollars) for a blood test that would show he had zero alcohol blood level. He was completely cleared, but a couple of the other boys who had a couple beers at the party where she nearly drank herself to death now have convictions.

It's not all black and white. I have the utmost respect and admiration for these boys in my experience who took care of this girl, in this local case, didn't touch her except to dress her and carry her home, but I am angry at a legal system that didn't charge her but charged the boys.


That's what I'm dealing with, when I read this story about this girl. I'm so grateful that my son and his friends were unbelievably respectful (really!) and I pine for the boys in this case who were less in control of themselves. Girls who have a long history of drinking to the point of blacking out are dangerous to their friends.
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Jeana-what your son and his friends did was commendable and the result of good parenting. Bravo for you and these boys. But honestly, they did the right thing-and the other boys did the very OPPOSITE of that!

I don't know about your state, but it is reprehensible that the boys that helped the girl were punished. I know that in some states, there is a protection in the law that if you seek medical attention for someone, you have immunity. I believe Jon Bon Jovi's daughter (I think in New York State) that was the case. It's a good law. If two people are doing drugs together and one OD's, the other person won't be afraid to get assistance and perhaps save a life. I am not sure if this law applies to alcohol or to your state.

As far as the $500.00 goes, I would imagine that her parents should have foot that bill and you should have demanded that they do. If not, I would sue them for the money. The other boys should not have been prosecuted either, in my opinion. I am wondering what they were found guilty of.

But as for the rest of the post about the girl's past behavior, I think your story actually speaks volumes about just WHY it's so important that these types of things don't enter into whether or not it is a "rape." A drunk girl stripping naked in front of a house full of boys is obviously out of control and any respectable male would most certainly recognize that and do the right thing. I don't care if she took on the entire basketball team earlier in the day and posted pictures of it on FB.

It is nearly impossible to get "past acts" even admitted into evidence to convict a person. Why in the world would "past acts" be held against a victim? The only time I could ever see that being relevant is if she has been proven of past false reporting of rape to show a pattern of behavior. (And I'm not saying that a person guilty of false reporting is fair game to future rapes either, but could see it coming into play with a he said/she said scenario)

All I have heard from defenders of these boys who are *advertiser censored* shaming the girl have been that she's a *advertiser censored* and that she lies. Well she certainly didn't lie about this. It IS black and white. We have all seen the texts, heard the testimony, seen the pictures, etc... She was falling down, passing out and puking all over the place. She was literally carried from party to party to party. There should be NO PITY for these boys that did this to her nor any of the friends who laughed and did nothing, those who shared the tweets, those who tried to help them cover it up and those who continue to defend them and even continue to disparage the victim and go so far as to threaten her.

These boys are GUILTY. They were found GUILTY in a court of law. The time for pity for these boys is over and we must turn our sights to the pity we SHOULD have for JD and all of the other JD's of the world.

P.S. I'm a victim of a rape that wasn't prosecuted because it was a date rape. It wasn't prosecuted for the very reasons and sentiments shared by many people who would agree with your post. So to me this IS black and white and it IS personal.

Also-I respect your opinion and you shouldn't be banned for it. But I feel strongly that I must state my opinion in return.
 
Rape is rape. If I don't agree to have sex with you then it is rape. Regardless of what I am wearing or what I have had to drink. It is rape. Period. The end. I don't give a flying *self snip* about anything else.

I am as empathetic as the day is long is long but, I felt nothing when these young men were crying in the court room.
 
TheFarSide said:
Rape is rape. If I don't agree to have sex with you then it is rape. Regardless of what I am wearing or what I have had to drink. It is rape. Period. The end. I don't give a flying *self snip* about anything else.

I am as empathetic as the day is long is long but, I felt nothing when these young men were crying in the court room.
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I will admit I felt bad for them - but I was also wondering if their tears were from remorse over their evil conduct, or remorse over getting caught? I also felt bad that they didn't have a better moral compass and I wondered where they got the attitude that it was okay to treat another human being like that and call it funny?

This whole case has really shocked me as to what kids are capable of and willing to laugh about. It's scary.

Salem
 
Salem said:
I will admit I felt bad for them - but I was also wondering if their tears were from remorse over their evil conduct, or remorse over getting caught? I also felt bad that they didn't have a better moral compass and I wondered where they got the attitude that it was okay to treat another human being like that and call it funny?

This whole case has really shocked me as to what kids are capable of and willing to laugh about. It's scary.

Salem
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I understand feeling bad for them. Frankly, I was shocked that I felt nothing. I always play devil's advocate and try to look at the other side. I just couldn't this time. JMO.
 
IzzyBlanche said:
Snipped for focus

What crime do you think she should have been charged with?
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Sorry to quote my own post, but there's more. A couple of other questions sprang to my mind.

1. You said your son had to go to the ER for a blood test to show his BAC. Why did he have to? I mean, who made/encouraged him to do so? Law enforcement? If so, why? I don't understand why a good Samaritan like your son would have been ordered or encouraged to do this.

2. When you say your son's friends now have criminal records for "minor in possession of alcohol (her alcohol, actually)" and later say "a couple of the other boys who had a couple beers at the party...now have convictions" I get really confused. It sounds like you are saying there was no alcohol at the party until the girl brought it. If that were the case:

If the girl feels awful about the situation, it sounds like she has a conscience. Did she not speak up and say it was her alcohol and not your son's friends' alcohol? Or does the MIP law state that once the alcohol showed up everyone underage be considered minors in possession? (I know next to nothing about present-day underage drinking laws, having done my underage drinking back in the Mesozoic era.)

If the girl brought the alcohol to the party and some of the (underage) boys had a couple of beers (that she brought), doesn't that mean they were, in fact, minors in possession?

And if they were of age and had a couple of beers (that she brought), what were they convicted of?

I just don't understand the situation.
 
JeannaT said:
I've just got to say, I'm still so torn on hearing this case.

I had a horrible experience - probably as many mothers of sons have had - with a girl who came to a party and drank herself nearly to death with alcohol she brought and a couple of my son's friends now have criminal records for minor in possession of alcohol (her alcohol, actually). She stripped herself naked and got in the hot tub and they rescued her from the hot tub, dressed her, and took her home to her mother. She had to be treated in the ER because she was so wasted. She herself feels awful about this - but she wasn't charged with anything. My own son, who hadn't had ANYTHING to drink and did nothing wrong whatsoever and helped this girl get home safely had to go to the ER and pay $500 (that's 5 hundred dollars) for a blood test that would show he had zero alcohol blood level. He was completely cleared, but a couple of the other boys who had a couple beers at the party where she nearly drank herself to death now have convictions.

It's not all black and white. I have the utmost respect and admiration for these boys in my experience who took care of this girl, in this local case, didn't touch her except to dress her and carry her home, but I am angry at a legal system that didn't charge her but charged the boys.


That's what I'm dealing with, when I read this story about this girl. I'm so grateful that my son and his friends were unbelievably respectful (really!) and I pine for the boys in this case who were less in control of themselves. Girls who have a long history of drinking to the point of blacking out are dangerous to their friends.
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Sounds to me like there is a lot missing from this story.

I think a huge problem is parents can see no wrong in their children.
 
JD was too drunk, or whatever, to consent. I am a little tired of the euphemisms around the boys behavior...they showed bad judgement, they made a mistake...its as if it is accepted that they were suddenly not in control of themselves like a lightening strike.

Are you kidding me? This was a prolonged attack. There are elements of it that we are still unaware of that havent been completely litigated yet, but we learned enough to know that there was a very organized response in the following days which was to destroy any lingering images and discussion that confirmed what happened to JD.

The gift to them was the transfer to juvie, which is worth revisiting imvho, and the sentences they received. Let's see how well the boys do in juvie-they are high profile so I am curious as to how they will be received by their peers, particularly Mr Mays.
 
JeannaT said:
I've just got to say, I'm still so torn on hearing this case.

I had a horrible experience - probably as many mothers of sons have had - with a girl who came to a party and drank herself nearly to death with alcohol she brought and a couple of my son's friends now have criminal records for minor in possession of alcohol (her alcohol, actually). She stripped herself naked and got in the hot tub and they rescued her from the hot tub, dressed her, and took her home to her mother. She had to be treated in the ER because she was so wasted. She herself feels awful about this - but she wasn't charged with anything. My own son, who hadn't had ANYTHING to drink and did nothing wrong whatsoever and helped this girl get home safely had to go to the ER and pay $500 (that's 5 hundred dollars) for a blood test that would show he had zero alcohol blood level. He was completely cleared, but a couple of the other boys who had a couple beers at the party where she nearly drank herself to death now have convictions.

It's not all black and white. I have the utmost respect and admiration for these boys in my experience who took care of this girl, in this local case, didn't touch her except to dress her and carry her home, but I am angry at a legal system that didn't charge her but charged the boys.


That's what I'm dealing with, when I read this story about this girl. I'm so grateful that my son and his friends were unbelievably respectful (really!) and I pine for the boys in this case who were less in control of themselves. Girls who have a long history of drinking to the point of blacking out are dangerous to their friends.
Click to expand...

Read the texts and emails and also it's quite possible she was roofied. They did a blood test on her a couple of days later. It was probably out of her system by then.

http://www.health.arizona.edu/health_topics/sexual_health/rohypnol.htm

Medium to high doses of Rohypnol (2 mg. or more) remain, and can be detected in the urine up to 72 hours after ingestion.

Salem said:
I will admit I felt bad for them - but I was also wondering if their tears were from remorse over their evil conduct, or remorse over getting caught? I also felt bad that they didn't have a better moral compass and I wondered where they got the attitude that it was okay to treat another human being like that and call it funny?

This whole case has really shocked me as to what kids are capable of and willing to laugh about. It's scary.

Salem
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After watching the videos and reading the text messages I have no to negative sympathy for them. If they were sorry they would have pleaded guilty. JMO
 
I'll admit that I did have a fleeting moment of sympathy for MR, because he at least faced the family and apologized for his actions. Mays, OTOH, only apologized for taking the picture and smirked throughout the trial.

I wondered, when seeing their reactions, if they had been at all prepared for a guilty verdict. Based on what we read by local kids and some of the adults online, they may have still been getting high fives all around up until the verdict was announced?

And then there are the threats JD is getting now. I can't imagine why that family doesn't pack up and move the hell out of that area!

And last, I hope the family is getting counselling for JD. Definitely not saying she has any responsibility for the rape at all, but if she does have a history of heavy drinking and promiscuity, she's a troubled girl. To think she has that kind of a past at 16, and also to hear some of the girls at these parties are 14? Very sad...again, I'd pack up my family and move! And find a good counselor.
 
I wondered, when seeing their reactions, if they had been at all prepared for a guilty verdict. Based on what we read by local kids and some of the adults online, they may have still been getting high fives all around up until the verdict was announced?
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Mays was planning on going to Wendy's after the verdict was read. Apparently these boys believed that they were good to go. That says a lot to me.
 
believe09 said:
Mays was planning on going to Wendy's after the verdict was read. Apparently these boys believed that they were good to go. That says a lot to me.
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I agree, they thought it would all be over that day. when they heard 'guilty!' the tears were all for themselves. If you are sorry, and want to say it, say it BEFORE you are found guilty. I made a big mistake, I made a fool of myself, I was also intoxicated, whatever. But don't talk about the girl like she is the one at fault, then cry like a baby when you go down for it. I felt no sympathy. And I agree with the other poster, I'd pack my family and daughter up, and move to another state.
It's hard for me to believe teens these days act and talk like this. Do the parents do any parenting? Who, boy or girl, could stand by, and watch or take picrures and not do any thing to help this girl? I hope alot of parents are using this to teach there children how the world works in real life.
 
Just read some of the texts from the trial. Remember the kid on Dr. Phil's show...the one saying he knew they couldn't have done anything and whose mother was so angry at all the innocents being harmed? Defended her son's right to defend his innocent friends, etc., etc.

Yep, that kid is right there in the texts wanting to know all the fun details from TM. .
 
JeannaT said:
Well, in my opinion, it does get more black and white than this case. Men who grab women off the street while they are jogging or walking dogs, and assault them while they scream and struggle are certainly, clearly, black and white. That's felony assault, and the men are felons.

This case IMHO is NOT black and white. If you only have knowledge of this young woman this one night, it could seem black and white. If you have knowledge of a general history, it might seem more grey.
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How can it be gray? Even if she was the town *advertiser censored*, what right did these boys have to rape her? What right did anyone have to video it? Was she "asking" for it by being drunk? Does that let the "young men" off the hook for not being in control of themselves?
 
Fifty Bucks says I can guess what the first word these young men would scream if they just happen to fall asleep in the prison and someone decides to insert a finger somewhere permission had not been granted...any takers?

:violin:
RR!
 
Steely Dan said:
Read the texts and emails and also it's quite possible she was roofied. They did a blood test on her a couple of days later. It was probably out of her system by then.
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*snipped for relevance to response*

On the Anonymous website, one of the complaints against the investigation was that there was no lab work done to determine if she'd been drugged. Two days after the incident when it became apparent to her parents that they needed to do the rape exam, and they took her to the hospital, they believed the drug screen had been done. They found out later that it hadn't been done and the reason given them was that it was too late, which is actually not true.

According to their bloggers, the test was never done.

It remains unclear whether it was a purposeful oversight to ignore a drug issue, or whether the tech honestly thought it was too late.

In listening to the testimony, it seems unlikely that she was drugged. In rohypnol cases I've read about the girl becomes physically dizzy and terribly sick, and then passes out cold and doesn't recover until late the next day. The testimony of this night is that she kept drinking more and more and so was awake and functioning (even using her cell phone) during these episodes. And then she'd drink more and pass out, against the advice of her friends. It seems unlikely from that, that it was anything except drinking too much.

One of the things that's so frustrating - to me - in this case - is the unfairness of who got charged and who was actually the most guilty. I don't think for a minute that Mal'ik is a dangerous young man, and I think he was far less culpable than many of the others. He also doesn't "ice" me like the boy who laughs and apparently honestly believes she's dead. It seems to me that he believes she might actually be dead or dying. That ices me.
 
ohiogirl said:
CNN under fire for sympathetic reporting on ruined 'promising lives' of Steubenville rape students

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Steubenville-rape-students.html#ixzz2Nuu9UF1t
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
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Yeah I saw that. It's as if the sports obsession is so ingrained in society, people don't even notice it. Football careers? Maybe. The NFL isn't exaclty a bastion of morality.

I saw nothing indicating any of them had any promising future. Just a heightened tolerance and propensity for cruelty. Not sure where CNN is getting any of this. I don't think any of them were going to cure cancer or become a great humanitarian. At any rate, they chose their fate.
 
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