GUILTY OH - Two women & child killed, 13yo abducted, Apple Valley, 10 Nov 2010 #9

[cluciano63]

He may have been sleeping off the "rush" from all of his activity if he was really sleeping when LE found him, and ultimately Sarah. Probably just crashed, not really thinking ahead at that point, after days of being awake and "busy." I imagine it is very exhausting to kill three people, take them out the the woods, etc...

I really do think this guy is insane, though as I've said before, probably not in the legal sense, which is pretty narrowly defined. I hope his lawyers recognize that he won't qualify for insanity, no jury will give him that concession, and that this will lead to a plea, as long as it is LWOP. I think avoiding a trial would be the best thing for the community (and Sarah) now, even if they are feeling like they need to get the death penalty. That would drag on for years and years and not allow healing to begin. And then the appeals are endless, etc...

 

[Java]

I think a lot more will come out after the case has been built.

I do not see them trying any other defense, other than to defend MH against the death penalty.

 

[Java]

He may have been sleeping off the "rush" from all of his activity if he was really sleeping when LE found him, and ultimately Sarah. Probably just crashed, not really thinking ahead at that point, after days of being awake and "busy." I imagine it is very exhausting to kill three people, take them out the the woods, etc...

I really do think this guy is insane, though as I've said before, probably not in the legal sense, which is pretty narrowly defined. I hope his lawyers recognize that he won't qualify for insanity, no jury will give him that concession, and that this will lead to a plea, as long as it is LWOP. I think avoiding a trial would be the best thing for the community (and Sarah) now, even if they are feeling like they need to get the death penalty. That would drag on for years and years and not allow healing to begin. And then the appeals are endless, etc...

He won't get "insanity" to much planning. He is insane though no doubt.
But even Dahmer's insanity plea got rejected. And if that is not insane there, I don't know what is. It's almost impossible to get insanity on premeditation.

Maybe MH will avoid a trial. It would be the best for Sarah.

 

[Torsade]

I keep trying to think of scenarios that did NOT include premeditation. I just really don't want to believe that anyone could be that evil (though I know they can be - I try to pretend otherwise).

What do we know about this case that would make this scenario impossible:

Let's say MH has been "infatuated" with Tina, and has been stalking/watching her. He breaks into the home (possibly for the second time) and Tina returns from somewhere to find him in the house. He snaps, grabs a knife and kills her. He believes he has some time, because the kids don't get home until later, so he drives to Walmart and buys a tarp and trash bags to dispose of the body. He's a bit freaked out, so he buys beer as well. He goes back to the house, drinks to calm down, and in walks Stephanie. Stephanie meets the same fate as Tina, and now it's time for the kids to get home. Sara touches something inside of him, maybe she begs, maybe he just has a soft spot somewhere in that black soul of his, and he cannot kill her. But he cannot leave her there, either, so he puts her in his basement, and then returns to hide the bodies.

What evidence are we aware of, that would make this scenario impossible?

 

[CKay]

I keep trying to think of scenarios that did NOT include premeditation. I just really don't want to believe that anyone could be that evil (though I know they can be - I try to pretend otherwise).

What do we know about this case that would make this scenario impossible:

Let's say MH has been "infatuated" with Tina, and has been stalking/watching her. He breaks into the home (possibly for the second time) and Tina returns from somewhere to find him in the house. He snaps, grabs a knife and kills her. He believes he has some time, because the kids don't get home until later, so he drives to Walmart and buys a tarp and trash bags to dispose of the body. He's a bit freaked out, so he buys beer as well. He goes back to the house, drinks to calm down, and in walks Stephanie. Stephanie meets the same fate as Tina, and now it's time for the kids to get home. Sara touches something inside of him, maybe she begs, maybe he just has a soft spot somewhere in that black soul of his, and he cannot kill her. But he cannot leave her there, either, so he puts her in his basement, and then returns to hide the bodies.

What evidence are we aware of, that would make this scenario impossible?

He didn't buy the beer at Walmart (minor detail) but there is no evidence that would make your scenario impossible (nor my scenario last page). So many possibilities exist, and I too hope that he was not just stalking around. No matter what actually happened and who may have known whom, only MH is to blame. Reality is that he could very well just be one of those psychopaths.

Time will tell.

 

[Java]

It may very well be likely though that the DP was/will be removed, for a confession or a guilty plea.
That would not surprise me in the least.

However, there is probably mountains of evidence against MH, and prosecution may of felt there was no need for a plea. They are going to fry him anyway. And never even offer him one.

Whether or not to spare a trial, for all families concerned, cost, etc…. Will be a big factor in what each side is willing to accept. MH has little or NO defense.

Either way 300+ years or the DP, he’s toast. Any of it is to good for him if you ask me.
I can’t even think of a punishment that would fit this crime. My brain doesn’t imagine things horrible enough to do to him. But being that MH is a full tilt, off the rails psychopath, incapable of processing emotion or fear, it would probably mean nothing to him anyway. This will always punish the victims and public more than it will punish him unfortunately.

But in my imagination & reality, I want to think of him being as miserable as possible for what ever time he has left to be a waste of the air he breaths.

 

[Torsade]

No matter what actually happened and who may have known whom, only MH is to blame.

Oh, I assign 100% of blame on MH. It would just make the world seem a little less scary, if he "went off" for some reason, and this wasn't all conceived ahead of time!

 

[Torsade]

I forgot we know about the Walmart receipt, so that's how you know the beer wasn't bought there. Maybe he bought the tshirt because his became soiled?

 

[CKay]

Oh, I assign 100% of blame on MH. It would just make the world seem a little less scary, if he "went off" for some reason, and this wasn't all conceived ahead of time!

Me too!

 

[Java]

100% of the blame is MH -

It was all premeditated, he is a “classic” psychopath.
And unfortunately this is where he snapped.

He’s been “off” for quite sometime. The arson and killing animals was the first big clue (that we know of)
But you can’t really look into the future from there. In hindsight though, it all makes perfect sense.

I’m sure jail for 6 years accelerated or intensified it. But it was there before jail. And it escalated after jail.
Being that these people tend to be loners, lots of clues are over looked or not seen altogether, until it’s to late.

 

[CKay]

I forgot we know about the Walmart receipt, so that's how you know the beer wasn't bought there. Maybe he bought the tshirt because his became soiled?

Possibly.

The receipt showed garbage bags, tarp or tarps (sheriff said it both ways, but in recapping tarp was plural), shirt and deli sandwich.

Some have thought that maybe the sandwich was for SM (if after the fact).

 

[Java]

I would like to think somewhere in my heart that the sandwich was for Sarah too.

But I doubt it, he probably ate it on the way back to where ever he was going because he was hungry.
As complex as some of the thoughts that make these people tic are, some of them are very basic. Usually the only concern they feel/show is for or about themselves.
The t-shirt was probably for him too.

And that could have been something as simple as he saw it on the way to the check out line, liked it and picked it up for himself.

Normal people would not be able to put these thoughts into one motion considering the other things MH had going on at the time. But a psychopath can. He could of even stopped and shopped for Christmas Lights.
They are incredibly vacant people. And at MH’s stage they don’t get “well”. They are what they are.

 

[snapdragon]

The receipt date issue has been driving me batty!! I had stated much earlier on that I thought I had read somewhere that the receipt was dated BEFORE the family went missing. But I couldn't find the link... Well, I found it. I searched through the past posts, and Nursebeeme had linked it. It is a story in the Columbus Dispatch, when they were searching for the remaining three, but had already rescued SM:

Searchers were credited yesterday with finding what authorities said could be "significant" evidence: a tarp and some trash bags with duct tape. Suspect Matthew J. Hoffman was known to have bought tarps and trash bags before the three vanished along with 13-year-old Sarah Maynard, Herrmann's daughter who was found alive Sunday bound in the basement of Hoffman's home.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content...r-miracle.html

Now, I know LE has declined to officially comment on the date of the receipt. However, local reporters theoretically could have spoke to an employee at Walmart who rang MH up, or a leak in LE.. who knows. Or could be shoddy reporting, as we've seen so much of...

 

[Leila]

It was in response to someone saying that they didn't believe "they" were having beers together that day.
-----------
I don’t think they were having beers together either. I think the beers were MH’s.
Dahmer and others were big drinkers too. Seems to be a common thread in these occurrences.
I doubt if the family even really knew him. He may of tried to get to know them in some way at sometime but, I think he followed them to DQ, to the gym, to school, to where ever he could for quite sometime, they may not of even been aware of it until recently.

The family in no way had anything to do with it. These people pop up out of the blue, with their own agenda in mind, MH could have targeted any family really. It just happened to be them. MH has probably watched a lot of people without them knowing it.

The hammock in trees, and stuff like that became obvious. But no telling where all he was at night when he was less noticeable.

It has to be frightening in retrospect for the people living in the area to know that MH was watching people, plotting and planning. It could have been anyone.

I don't think there was any sort of drinking together. It's more likely that MH drank all that beer during the time he spent there. Even though we don't have any confirmed time frame from beginning to end, I think MH was likely in Tina's house from mid-afternoon on Wednesday, Nov. 10th to the early morning hours of November 11th. It may have taken him all night to do whatever he did, with him leaving around dawn.

We know when LE found the truck at Kenyon College, but we don't know when MH left it there. It could have been there all day on Thursday.

 

[Leila]

If "she" (who I don't find overly credible) said four days, then it wasn't ... because, the Jeep was in the garage on Thursday, when LE first showed up (which was 4:15pm). The Jeep is more brown/tan than silver. And "big truck" doesn't fit. But I do think it was the Jeep that he used to dispose of bodies (in garage/easy access from house to vehicle, wouldn't be seen), then came back and did switch with the F150, which was found at Kenyon. I think he left there (Kenyon) in his car, which I think had been parked there before the crime (and then walked to the house). MOO

I agree. I don't find the next-door neighbor to MH very credible. Stephanie's Jeep was found in the garage on Thursday, Nov. 11th, and I too think it was used to transport the bodies.

I have a Jeep Cherokee that's 4-wheel drive.........they come in either 4-wheel or 2-wheel drive. I'd like to know if the Jeep was 4-wheel drive. The area where MH took the bodies was a dirt road that no doubt becomes rutted after rains, and opens out into a clearing. Having 4-wheel drive would help negotiate the road and field.

I think MH took Tina's truck and left it at the college as a means to throw LE off the track as well as transportation back to where he left his car. Upon initial investigation, LE had four missing people and the vehicle of one of them was left at the college, and LE may have initially thought the people had left together in that truck and were in the area of the college.

 

[peel]

'What evidence are we aware of, that would make this scenario impossible?''

why would his heart be moved by a 13 yro but not a fair haired cute little 11 yro?...yes he was a boy but at that age their features are soft and innocent..

I'm still hung up on the "hero" remarks about SM and I am leaning on her avoiding death in an ACTIVE sense....maybe hiding...locking the door...etc....

but how can anyone of us understand this monstrosity?....

 

[peel]

WOW....I missed the whole date thing on the receipt....but if he did buy that stuff before the murders.....just wow....just WOW.....of course the defense could claim he was making a natural buy for a tree trimmer.....

 

[CocoChanel]

'What evidence are we aware of, that would make this scenario impossible?''

why would his heart be moved by a 13 yro but not a fair haired cute little 11 yro?...yes he was a boy but at that age their features are soft and innocent..

I'm still hung up on the "hero" remarks about SM and I am leaning on her avoiding death in an ACTIVE sense....maybe hiding...locking the door...etc....

but how can anyone of us understand this monstrosity?....

You are right, it is futile to try to make any sense of a truly evil and senseless atrocity, yet it is the human-ness in us that strives to I suppose. I too have been caught by the 'hero' remarks. Sarah did something amazing to have survived this. We may never know exactly what she did or how she got through this, and, I almost think it best if we DON'T know. She has lost so very much. I would love to offer her some sort of privacy or anonymousity (is that a word?), though I fear she will be forever publicly marked, if not scarred, by this horrific event. God bless her now, and throughout the rest of her life.

 

[peel]

I think it would be good for her to tell her story....but maybe when she is of age..like 18 or so.....the public craves for truely heroic people and for people that face great odds.....I lost my mom when she was nearly 82 and yet I feel so cheated....imagine the poor little 13 yro.....I just can't imagine...but sometimes sharing our losses can be a great relief....

 

[CKay]

The receipt date issue has been driving me batty!! I had stated much earlier on that I thought I had read somewhere that the receipt was dated BEFORE the family went missing. But I couldn't find the link... Well, I found it. I searched through the past posts, and Nursebeeme had linked it. It is a story in the Columbus Dispatch, when they were searching for the remaining three, but had already rescued SM:

Searchers were credited yesterday with finding what authorities said could be "significant" evidence: a tarp and some trash bags with duct tape. Suspect Matthew J. Hoffman was known to have bought tarps and trash bags before the three vanished along with 13-year-old Sarah Maynard, Herrmann's daughter who was found alive Sunday bound in the basement of Hoffman's home.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content...r-miracle.html

Now, I know LE has declined to officially comment on the date of the receipt. However, local reporters theoretically could have spoke to an employee at Walmart who rang MH up, or a leak in LE.. who knows. Or could be shoddy reporting, as we've seen so much of...

Thanks for finding that.

Remember that the reporting on this case has not always been 100% accurate.

But with that said, it is possible that the Dispatch reporter dug something up on their own. The Dispatch is in Columbus (nearest big city) and I have no doubt they had a reporter(s) up here. I also recall at a few of the official news conferences, there was a reporter that would stop him as he was almost at the door, to ask him a question and he responded. We couldn't hear the convo.

Hopefully all of the pieces can fall into place soon, so everyone can make sense of this (somehow, if possible).