OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

[Betty P]

Another thing I've noticed while reading the transcripts and watching old interviews is that Hart's lawyer, Garvin Isaacs, often misrepresents the truth when it comes to various facts in the case. I'm guessing this is a deliberate tactic to confuse jurors and the public.

Here's an example:

In Volume 7 of the pre-trial testimony, Isaacs starts off the day by making a lot of statements about circumstantial evidencde, etc. and moves to have the judge dismiss the case against Hart.

In making his argument and rebuttal, he keeps saying that the suspect's hair in evidence was located in the victim's tent. The prosecuting attorney argues back that the 3 hairs matched to Hart were found both in the tent where MG and LF were and also stuck to the tape that was used to bind DM.

But Isaacs continues to mention the hair only as one and only found in the tent. So far, he's repeated this two or three times. He also states the hair evidence wasn't a match, but it was matched to Hart. Each time he says it, he's corrected, but he repeats it again.

I also noticed in a follow up interview with Isaac years later, he misrepresents other facts about the case.

[video=youtube;74wzoxJ_vxM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74wzoxJ_vxM[/video]

At 8:09, Isaacs says the military style boot print was size 9.5. But Weaver and others testified the boot print was between size 10 and 11. I've seen Isaacs repeat this false information a number of times in interviews.

He was one tricky guy, I guess that's what makes him a good defense attorney. This may also be why erroneous stuff remains out there about this case.

 

[missgulfsouth]

He was one tricky guy, I guess that's what makes him a good defense attorney. This may also be why erroneous stuff remains out there about this case.

Oh yeah, he was "good" alright.

District Attorney Wanted. Must possess the District Attorney 101 Skillset. Qualified candidates will excel at deflecting, dodging. distracting, throwing up smokescreens, misinterpreting, misrepresentation, twisting, spinning, and presenting alternative facts. Pathological liars preferred. Applicants with a conscience need not apply.

Pretty much how I feel about defense attorneys. I'm a pro-prosecution bulldog.
MOO

 

[huxley72]

My apologies if I upset you. The errors I mentioned above have to do with the person who put the map together, not with how girls reported events that happened that night. There's been a lot of confusion and errors on the internet about this case over the years. It happens. The pre-trial docs have been very helpful in clearing up a lot of information, but not everyone reads them, so erroneous information continues to circulate.

I just found another good online source of information. It's a blog by the son of Sid Wise, the lead prosecutor on the GLH case.

http://sidstories.com/

http://sidstories.com/?p=132

Thanks for the stories about Sid blog. I hope he continues to add things. i felt like he was gonna give us some great information when he spoke of Barbara Day and other things happening before. But it seems that if it weren't for the US Open of 77 then the case wouldn't be a big deal as it turned out to be. Pros that it was Hart hair similiar, knew the land, raped before, and supposeledly stayed in caves that he took back evidence to after the murders. Cons against Hart fingerprint no match, shoe size different, murdered and raped little girls(unlike his other rape), was practically night blind according to some. And why didn't he take back the murder weapon and clothes back to the cave as well? The dogs were never taken to the cave to my understanding. I think they really messed up the investigation from the start by not setting out to find the killers when they first got there. The dogs would have found him or them quickly if they didn't have a car.

 

[missgulfsouth]

I don't know what more LE could have done with the evidence they had and science being so limited back then. I feel that Hart got his justice in the end. It bothers me that he may have had help and that help may still be walking free.

 

[HoneyWest]

My apologies if I upset you. The errors I mentioned above have to do with the person who put the map together, not with how girls reported events that happened that night. There's been a lot of confusion and errors on the internet about this case over the years. It happens. The pre-trial docs have been very helpful in clearing up a lot of information, but not everyone reads them, so erroneous information continues to circulate.

I just found another good online source of information. It's a blog by the son of Sid Wise, the lead prosecutor on the GLH case.

http://sidstories.com/

http://sidstories.com/?p=132

Betty, thanks for the links to Sid Stories! I'll be reading all of them, as Sid Wise was a character.

 

[Ambitioned]

Oh yeah, he was "good" alright.

District Attorney Wanted. Must possess the District Attorney 101 Skillset. Qualified candidates will excel at deflecting, dodging. distracting, throwing up smokescreens, misinterpreting, misrepresentation, twisting, spinning, and presenting alternative facts. Pathological liars preferred. Applicants with a conscience need not apply.

Pretty much how I feel about defense attorneys. I'm a pro-prosecution bulldog.
MOO

Me also. I really detest defense lawyers. Yes I know, "everyone deserves representation." Blah blah. I've known some really shady defense lawyers who know the truth and still defend their client. (Think Lin Wood.) How do they sleep at night? Ah yes, the almighty dollar.

Thanks for the maps. I agree in that this case is maddening because there's so many different accounts. It's like the campfire game where you sit in a circle and tell the person next to you a short story. By the time the story goes around the circle of people and gets back to you, it's a completely different story.

The girl who said it sounded like Lori Farmer had said she camped with her before so she probably DID recognize the voice.

At 3 a.m., a girl in the Cherokee Unit heard a scream coming from the direction of the Kiowa group. A girl in the Quapaw Unit also heard someone cry out, “Mama! Mama!” and thought she recognized the voice as that of Lori Farmer, with whom she had attended camp once before. She knew that Lori sometimes had nightmares, so she dismissed any cause for alarm and went back to sleep.

How horrible

So I do not at all understand going back to sleep with all of the unnerving activity. Maybe the counselors were not nervous people, maybe the happenings didn't set them on edge like it would me. But me sleeping soundly under those circumstances would not have been an option.

I don't get that at all either.

As for gutteral sounds. If you haven't already, check out some indian chanting. Not just Cherokee but others. The ones I heard were like throat singing, very low and gutteral so maybe that idea isn't far fetched.

I agree with the opinion that the alarm clock causing the hasty exit.

Off to read the sidstories!

 

[adeedra]

Oh my God, they were hunting them. Literally.
Creepy, gutteral, not-like-a-human sounds could be a sound of male deer. I have no idea how it's called in English but some hunters are pretty amazing in both - copying actual animal sounds and creating the creepiest.
It's used to scare, confuse or encourage an animal to get closer (and meet that other "animal", but it's hunter instead).

 

[missgulfsouth]

I'm thinking the information about Lori Farmer's voice being recognized screaming can't be correct, because she was only 8 and had never camped before. It was her first night so no one would know if she had nightmares.

Conflicting accounts. Since there are a couple of people here who seem to know the case inside out, forward and backward, and who is lying and who is telling the truth, and which information has been fabricated over the years ... I'll leave them to it and move on to other cases that welcome fresh eyes.

 

[adeedra]

The bodies were found a couple hundred feet from the counselor's tent. Don't know exactly, as I've never seen a map that defines distance. But you can get a good idea from looking at photos of the crime scene and overhead photos of the area.

You can see it here:
https://www.google.pl/maps/place/Ca...53621354213d30!8m2!3d36.1596621!4d-95.1624413

I did some sort of overview - but google maps is great to imagine the distance, especially when it's even more zoomed and you can literally count trees (40 years older but still):

 

[Betty P]

Thanks for the stories about Sid blog. I hope he continues to add things. i felt like he was gonna give us some great information when he spoke of Barbara Day and other things happening before. But it seems that if it weren't for the US Open of 77 then the case wouldn't be a big deal as it turned out to be. Pros that it was Hart hair similiar, knew the land, raped before, and supposeledly stayed in caves that he took back evidence to after the murders. Cons against Hart fingerprint no match, shoe size different, murdered and raped little girls(unlike his other rape), was practically night blind according to some. And why didn't he take back the murder weapon and clothes back to the cave as well? The dogs were never taken to the cave to my understanding. I think they really messed up the investigation from the start by not setting out to find the killers when they first got there. The dogs would have found him or them quickly if they didn't have a car.

Yeah, that information about the US Open was illuminating. That probably had a huge impact on the national media coverage of the GS murders. Makes you realize what a mess LE had on their hands - trying to investigate a horrible murder on top of thousands of reporters and camera people swarming the place. They'd never been through anything like that before. Explains why they moved the whole command center to Camp Scott, then locked the gates.

Then imagine having to call in hundreds of local volunteers to walk through hundreds of acres of woods looking for evidence and the killers. IIRC, for a while they only allowed searchers who owned their own weapons for fear they might come upon the killers in the woods. All in temps above 90 degrees every day.

No computers, no cell phones. The dogs helped because then they found out where GLH and friends had been hiding. By then, he was probably hiding out in someone's home in Locust Grove and with no search warrant, they couldn't look for him. IIRC, the only home they could search was his mother's.

 

[Betty P]

You can see it here:
https://www.google.pl/maps/place/Ca...53621354213d30!8m2!3d36.1596621!4d-95.1624413

I did some sort of overview - but google maps is great to imagine the distance, especially when it's even more zoomed and you can literally count trees (40 years older but still):

Thanks! That's a much better map than the other one. You can see the roads and trails more clearly. As others said, Kiowa wasn't the only camp site that was remote. Some of others were pretty distant, too. Maybe they chose it because it was closer to the gate, but still farther away from the main administration area.

ETA: Oops, I mean aerial photos. Very good work, thank you! You'll have to tell us how you do that.

 

[Elementarywatsonsir]

Just side eyeing things over here, bit real talk again....if GH was known to LE, did they possibly bait the dogs towards him?


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[huxley72]

You can see it here:
https://www.google.pl/maps/place/Ca...53621354213d30!8m2!3d36.1596621!4d-95.1624413

I did some sort of overview - but google maps is great to imagine the distance, especially when it's even more zoomed and you can literally count trees (40 years older but still):

Thanks for the maps it shows what I was thinking. The distance from the counselors tent from were the bodies were found is about the same distance as the counselors tent to tent #7. If the killer was alarmed and going back to the gate then it couldn't have been Hart right? This guy didn't need a gate, he was out in the countryside going around stealing things and glasses and nobody could see him Shapeshifter, please such crap. And he stayed in the county hiding out in the wilderness, I don't buy it. Why was the trucker from West Memphis cleared and why was signaled out? LE should at least give some more info. I mean Sid's boy said that Denise left footprints so they know she walked to where she was killed but it was never discussed in the pre trial transcript. There is a lot more info if they would just release it, find out who did this.

 

[Ambitioned]

I'm thinking the information about Lori Farmer's voice being recognized screaming can't be correct, because she was only 8 and had never camped before. It was her first night so no one would know if she had nightmares.

In that case,thanks for correcting me!

 

[adeedra]

ETA: Oops, I mean aerial photos. Very good work, thank you! You'll have to tell us how you do that.

I didn't...
As I posted here - at first I was looking at those sketch maps of Kiowa available, later I compared it with that aerial photo taken most likely for the trial, and with that still frame of aerial shoot showed in video... and with help from this thread I finally was able to figure out the confuguration of these tents (because with whatever reason at least two of these maps shared everywhere are inverted, not settled to north as every map should be) but I was still unable to imagine the distance conselors tent-road, gate, etc. so I went to google maps and started looking for trails and buildings - not all are still there, not all are still visible but after all it doesn't seem like much changed around there.
As for the Kiowa - I adjusted scale and pasted it there after that.

 

[adeedra]

In that case,thanks for correcting me!

But did she never camped before? It was the first time for Doris, and I recall Lori's mother saying that she wouldn't let her to go there if she knew how it looked like around there - but nothing more. Did I missed something?

 

[huxley72]

I think lori camped the year before, not so sure but seemed like I read that.

 

[huxley72]

Yeah, that information about the US Open was illuminating. That probably had a huge impact on the national media coverage of the GS murders. Makes you realize what a mess LE had on their hands - trying to investigate a horrible murder on top of thousands of reporters and camera people swarming the place. They'd never been through anything like that before. Explains why they moved the whole command center to Camp Scott, then locked the gates.

Then imagine having to call in hundreds of local volunteers to walk through hundreds of acres of woods looking for evidence and the killers. IIRC, for a while they only allowed searchers who owned their own weapons for fear they might come upon the killers in the woods. All in temps above 90 degrees every day.

No computers, no cell phones. The dogs helped because then they found out where GLH and friends had been hiding. By then, he was probably hiding out in someone's home in Locust Grove and with no search warrant, they couldn't look for him. IIRC, the only home they could search was his mother's.

I like the US Open and it probably is my favorite tourney of the PGA Tour, but it seemed like they were saying this wasn't the big deal that it was. And because of the US Open it became a big deal. I mean you can look at all the horrible things that have happened in the history of mankind. And it is some bad things, and with kids as well. But this was a big deal and still is a big deal. I don't think you could think that you could prevent yourself or others from this kind of evil. Not today or yesterday, that is what amazes me about what happened after the fact about getting everyone to eat and hike without knowing til the buses came. The protocal worked but really it was about protecting the integrity of the Girl Scouts and the organization so it would continue. And I have no problems with the girl scouts. But what if Barbara Day and her husband or all the Kiowa counselors were killed? Would we be trying to say that Gene Hart did it and don't even talk about other alternatives? Don't worry about the fingerprint, the bootprints, or anything else. It is about three little girls and not the dang US Open, Weaver, the damn OSBI, Hart, you name it. The victims are why we are here they are who we continue to fight for.

 

[Betty P]

Just side eyeing things over here, bit real talk again....if GH was known to LE, did they possibly bait the dogs towards him?


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From what I've read so far in the transcripts, they used two different items to "scent" the dogs. One was a piece of carpeting/rug from JackShroff's cabin. When someone broke into his cabin that night, they left a very clear boot print (military style boot) on the rug outside the door. Shroff didn't have military boots, nor were there any at his cabin.

Another time they used seminal fluid retrieved from one of the victim's body.

They used tracking dogs a few different times, not sure what may have been used in other searches. IIRC, both times the dogs led them out of the camp and to the cave/cellar area near Spring Creek where a lot of evidence was found (roll of tape that matched binding on DM and had been stolen from Shroff, newspaper, glass case, etc.)

 

[Betty P]

I like the US Open and it probably is my favorite tourney of the PGA Tour, but it seemed like they were saying this wasn't the big deal that it was. And because of the US Open it became a big deal. I mean you can look at all the horrible things that have happened in the history of mankind. And it is some bad things, and with kids as well. But this was a big deal and still is a big deal. I don't think you could think that you could prevent yourself or others from this kind of evil. Not today or yesterday, that is what amazes me about what happened after the fact about getting everyone to eat and hike without knowing til the buses came. The protocal worked but really it was about protecting the integrity of the Girl Scouts and the organization so it would continue. And I have no problems with the girl scouts. But what if Barbara Day and her husband or all the Kiowa counselors were killed? Would we be trying to say that Gene Hart did it and don't even talk about other alternatives? Don't worry about the fingerprint, the bootprints, or anything else. It is about three little girls and not the dang US Open, Weaver, the damn OSBI, Hart, you name it. The victims are why we are here they are who we continue to fight for.

Most here are talking about alternatives. Some of us think, as do many others, that it was GLH and an accomplice. Wish we could talk more about those possibilities.

Maybe it would help if we did a review of all the evidence that was used at the GLH trial and see if there's another explanation for it? For example, the tape that was used to bind DM was the same roll stolen from Shroff's house. It was microscopically matched to the roll of tape that was found at the cave/cellar area, also known as cave #1. How could that evidence fit someone else?