OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

[Betty P]

On the 6th of July OSBI director says that he's certain that Hart is guilty cause they have many evidences pointing at his guilt.OSBI director says that he's certain that Hart is guilty cause they have many evidences pointing at his guilt.

They didn't have any evidence pointing specifically at him at the time. He was a fugitive, rapist and great suspect, but that's not enough to talk about certain guilt.
It is in timeline on girlscoutsmurders.com.
Also - there is something shady with these pictures found in sleeping bags with bodies. Some sources are saying that there was photos of his previous victims. More reliable are saying that pictures were found in the cave along with other items. Some other that photos mysteriously appear later and that squirrel hunters weren't recalling seeing them previously.

Do you have a link for the OSBI director's quote? I'm reading through some articles right now that say they consider him a suspect and want to question him.

An article at this link, titled "Weaver Rips Claim About Hart Relatives" from June 26 ends with a quote from Mayes Co DA Sid Wise: "First we're going to catch Mr. Hart, and then we're going to determine to our satisfaction whether he killed the girls. And if not, we'll look for someone else".

http://nebula.wsimg.com/268fe02f72f...4109980B88DCD7256&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Quite a few locals quoted in the article ask the same question: "If Hart is innocent of the murders, he should turn himself in and be questioned." Hart never did that. Now, his defenders may claim that, because he's a Native American, he wouldn't get fair treatment, but if you read many of the news articles of the time, quite a few suspects who were arrested and/or questioned at the time were also Native Americans. They were questioned and released, no problems.

Hart didn't want to turn himself in because he knew he would go back to prison for a long time. He had kidnapped and brutally raped two women. When on parole, he had committed a string of armed burglaries and was put back in jail, where he escaped twice. He should have turned himself in and truthfully answered questions if he was innocent.


Here's a link to an article written 30 days after the murders that has a pretty good timeline. Note, there are quite a few inaccuracies and inconsistencies that were ironed out later. Some bad reporting, some because of rumors and some because of leaked bad info by different LE officers.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/33a8421b93c...4109980B88DCD7256&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

In the timeline, there's a quote from the OSBI Director from July 6. That was the date when autopsy reports were released revealing two of the girls were raped. (Preliminary autopsy results had been released earlier, before lab tests were done. They reported 2 of the girls appeared to have been raped, but, because lab work hadn't been done, there was no proof. This led to the false rumors that the girls had been raped by women.)

At his press conference, Laird says:

"I would not say with certainty that Hart is guilty, because I would not say with certainty that any person who has not been tried is guilty, but we have a great lot of evidence in this case that points to his guilt."

 

[Betty P]

On the 6th of July OSBI director says that he's certain that Hart is guilty cause they have many evidences pointing at his guilt.OSBI director says that he's certain that Hart is guilty cause they have many evidences pointing at his guilt.

They didn't have any evidence pointing specifically at him at the time. He was a fugitive, rapist and great suspect, but that's not enough to talk about certain guilt.
It is in timeline on girlscoutsmurders.com.
Also - there is something shady with these pictures found in sleeping bags with bodies. Some sources are saying that there was photos of his previous victims. More reliable are saying that pictures were found in the cave along with other items. Some other that photos mysteriously appear later and that squirrel hunters weren't recalling seeing them previously.

There were no pictures found in sleeping bags with the bodies. There was a photo found in the grass in the area of the cave/cellar area. The photos were of women taken at a wedding/reception of an employee of the prison where Hart was incarcerated. They were processed in a photo lab at the prison, where Hart was allowed to work. The employee who managed the prison photo lab was a man named Louis Linsey. You can read his pre-trial testimony at this link

http://www.campscottmurders.com/pre-trial-volumes.html

Hart is alleged to have taken a copy of the photo, speculation is that one of the women reminded him of his former wife. Not sure why he took it. Some claim the photo was planted by Pete Weaver who had confiscated it from Hart the last time he was jailed. If so, he would have been hanging onto it for 4 years, waiting to plant it some where to incriminate Hart. May not have been the strongest evidence, there was more that implicated Hart's guilt.

 

[adeedra]

Do you have a link for the OSBI director's quote? I'm reading through some articles right now that say they consider him a suspect and want to question him.

Most likely it is quotted somewhere here but I can't find higher resource
http://www.girlscoutmurders.com/images/img0577.png

""I would say with certainly that Hart is guilty because i would not say with certainty that any person who has not yet been tried were guilty, but we do have a great deal of evidence in thic case that points to his guilt"

An article at this link, titled "Weaver Rips Claim About Hart Relatives" from June 26 ends with a quote from Mayes Co DA Sid Wise: "First we're going to catch Mr. Hart, and then we're going to determine to our satisfaction whether he killed the girls. And if not, we'll look for someone else".

Which is horrible, because in "Girl Scout Murders KJRH" reporter casually mentioned that these woods around Camp Scott use to hide many fugitives, not only GLH, the same thing appears in "Tent number eight".
And what about that boy murdered not even a mont after girls, sometime after he admitted that he knew one of them? Another coincidence?
His father was convinced that he died because he was talking too much and knew something or even have to do something with it.

Quite a few locals quoted in the article ask the same question: "If Hart is innocent of the murders, he should turn himself in and be questioned." Hart never did that. Now, his defenders may claim that, because he's a Native American, he wouldn't get fair treatment, but if you read many of the news articles of the time, quite a few suspects who were arrested and/or questioned at the time were also Native Americans. They were questioned and released, no problems.

Hart didn't want to turn himself in because he knew he would go back to prison for a long time. He had kidnapped and brutally raped two women. When on parole, he had committed a string of armed burglaries and was put back in jail, where he escaped twice. He should have turned himself in and truthfully answered questions if he was innocent.

He wasn't good innocent man so most likely everyone knew that he wouldn't do that, no matter if he had something to do with Camp Scott murders or not.

 

[Betty P]

Most likely it is quotted somewhere here but I can't find higher resource
http://www.girlscoutmurders.com/images/img0577.png


Which is horrible, because in "Girl Scout Murders KJRH" reporter casually mentioned that these woods around Camp Scott use to hide many fugitives, not only GLH, the same thing appears in "Tent number eight".
And what about that boy murdered not even a mont after girls, sometime after he admitted that he knew one of them? Another coincidence?
His father was convinced that he died because he was talking too much and knew something or even have to do something with it.

He wasn't good innocent man so most likely everyone knew that he wouldn't do that, no matter if he had something to do with Camp Scott murders or not.

Yes, it looks like the link you have got the quote wrong. They left out the word "not" in the first part of the sentence, which makes it inconsistent with the second part where he says no person who hasn't been tried should be considered guilty. There were mistakes in the news coverage back then.

As for others involved from the local area, the guys who killed Jimmy (?) Bryan certainly need to be considered as possible accomplices. The two types of footprint in the tent seem to indicate more than one person. Three empty beer bottles nearby. Too much activity going on at that crime scene for it to be just one person. I wonder if GLH's cousin also hung around with Bryan and his friends? Some may still be friends as a lot of the same people still live in the area.

ETA: That's something I'd like to look into: Are any of the DNA samples from the perp at the crime scene in the national database? It would help to know if they match any other criminal's DNA.

 

[Betty P]

1982 News article about Garvin Isaacs, Hart's Attorney. Scroll about half way down the page
"Gene Leroy Hart: He was innocent"

Isaacs says he has no trouble that Hart died of natural causes. He had arterial sclerosis "hardening of the arteries". It ran in Hart's family. Isaacs knew both medical examiners who examined Hart and said there's no way they would lie about his cause of death. He said if there was any evidence of poisoning, they would have found it. He said Hart's father and brother had the same disease and both died of it at about the same age 35-40.



http://nebula.wsimg.com/268fe02f72f...4109980B88DCD7256&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

 

[Ambitioned]

1982 News article about Garvin Isaacs, Hart's Attorney. Scroll about half way down the page
"Gene Leroy Hart: He was innocent"

Isaacs says he has no trouble that Hart died of natural causes. He had arterial sclerosis "hardening of the arteries". It ran in Hart's family. Isaacs knew both medical examiners who examined Hart and said there's no way they would lie about his cause of death. He said if there was any evidence of poisoning, they would have found it. He said Hart's father and brother had the same disease and both died of it at about the same age 35-40.



http://nebula.wsimg.com/268fe02f72f...4109980B88DCD7256&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Thank you for sharing that!

Very interesting!

ITA. It's one of my pet peeves when people take so long to come forward.

 

[adeedra]

1982 News article about Garvin Isaacs, Hart's Attorney. Scroll about half way down the page
"Gene Leroy Hart: He was innocent"

Isaacs says he has no trouble that Hart died of natural causes. He had arterial sclerosis "hardening of the arteries". It ran in Hart's family. Isaacs knew both medical examiners who examined Hart and said there's no way they would lie about his cause of death. He said if there was any evidence of poisoning, they would have found it. He said Hart's father and brother had the same disease and both died of it at about the same age 35-40.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/268fe02f72f...4109980B88DCD7256&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

And that's not suspicious?
I know many people who suffer or suffered from arterial sclerosis and can't imagine that any of them could work heavily out for over an hour. And with weights? That would be very painful and most likely suicide.

Only thing that whoever wanted him to remain silent was forcing him to work out.

That disease could actually point at that he was unable to run thrugh the woods and successfully escape or plant DM's shoes. He wasn't at perfect shape earlier, He had chest pain during his previous convictions. It must get much worse after years without medications.

 

[huxley72]

Thank you for sharing that!

Very interesting!

ITA. It's one of my pet peeves when people take so long to come forward.

Still doesn't explain the boot print( or the boot for that matter) size of the boot and the size 7 shoe, oh and the fingerprint. Hairs were similiar and DNA was of Indian desent, how many Indians in the county? Harts a damn good suspect with his past and his whereabouts, but nothing at the scene and everything at the scene pointing to two others or a coverup of a counselor in the tent.

 

[huxley72]

1982 News article about Garvin Isaacs, Hart's Attorney. Scroll about half way down the page
"Gene Leroy Hart: He was innocent"

Isaacs says he has no trouble that Hart died of natural causes. He had arterial sclerosis "hardening of the arteries". It ran in Hart's family. Isaacs knew both medical examiners who examined Hart and said there's no way they would lie about his cause of death. He said if there was any evidence of poisoning, they would have found it. He said Hart's father and brother had the same disease and both died of it at about the same age 35-40.



http://nebula.wsimg.com/268fe02f72f...4109980B88DCD7256&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Yeah nothing suspicious about a guy dieing of a heart attact at 35. Isaacs didnt care that Hart died, he had made his name and people act like he was such a good lawyer. Joe Pesci from My Cousin Vinny could have won that case. All circumstantial evidence and no physical evidence, it wasn't even close. The jury deliberated 4 hours but said they knew their decision in 5 minutes. Prosecution screwed this one up but then LE made sure Hart paid for the crime. The sad thing is no closure and no justice. I wonder if there was a really good suspect that was related to someone at the camp or former employee of the camp. The Magic whatever would not have wanted that out, they still accept no blame. And why did the Farmer and Milner family file a lawsuit and the Guse family not? Was money offered to not file suit? Or did they just not deem it justifiable? They should have filed a lawsuit against the Mayes County Sheriff's Department if they were so sure Gene Hart did it. Because they were the ones who he escaped from and hadn't caught in 4 years.

 

[Hatfield]

I'm reading Dee's testimony again and she say's when Carla came back to say " We need to count kids" I yelled at her? Strange and then Carla went to tent 1 knowing the girl she saw in the road resembled Denise from Tent 7. At least I would think that she would somewhat recognize her. Also When Dee goes to number 7 she tells the other counselors that there is no girls in the tent and they all stand there looking in. Thinking maybe they were in another tent to count the other ones and maybe the blood was from an accident. Now Carla should say there is a girl in the road back there that appears to be dead and appears to be one of the girls missing from this tent, I don't understand this sequence at all, of course shock can do crazy things. Maybe in the back of her mind she was thinking it was another unit's girl I don't know. Not trying to cast blame but it was a bizzare discovery and sequence of events afterwards. The alarm clock, the discovery, the counting, Susan screaming, Dee not looking at the girl or girls while passing, no kids in the unit waking up, no kids in the unit asking where the other girls were while eating and going on a hike. Everyone keeping it together that saw or knew what happened, just wow.

I am somewhat confused too of the reactions and actions right after spotting what appeared to be a dead child in the path.

I realize everyone is different and shock is probably a factor. Trying to put myself in that terrible position I think what I would do is probably just start screaming loudly about there being a dead or injured girl in the path and go grab other counselors to go back to the scene to see if they were injured or really dead or not.

I am not sure if my first reaction would be to start counting girls without first getting help to go back to the body scene to be sure others see what I just saw. Especially if I was not sure if the person was really dead or not because they may be just badly injured.

Its not to place any blame on anyone because shock was definitely a factor and everyone is different. And the counselors may have had a protocol to count girls if anything happens so maybe it is explainable.

It just strikes me a little strange the way it was reported of the immediate reactions.

 

[Betty P]

I am somewhat confused too of the reactions and actions right after spotting what appeared to be a dead child in the path.

I realize everyone is different and shock is probably a factor. Trying to put myself in that terrible position I think what I would do is probably just start screaming loudly about there being a dead or injured girl in the path and go grab other counselors to go back to the scene to see if they were injured or really dead or not.

I am not sure if my first reaction would be to start counting girls without first getting help to go back to the body scene to be sure others see what I just saw. Especially if I was not sure if the person was really dead or not because they may be just badly injured.

Its not to place any blame on anyone because shock was definitely a factor and everyone is different. And the counselors may have had a protocol to count girls if anything happens so maybe it is explainable.

It just strikes me a little strange the way it was reported of the immediate reactions.

It's a good thing Carla and Dee were mature enough to take a deep breath, get their panic under control and realize they had to:

1 Tell the other counselors, but not panic the other girls

2 Make sure everyone was safe and accounted for

3 Send one person to go get help

At that time, DE didn't know exactly what happened, just that Carla had told her there was a body on the trail. They didn't know if other girls had been attacked in their tents, too. At the time, they didn't realize there were three bodies there, not just one. Michelle Guse and Lori Farmer were zipped up inside their bags, which were just piled alongside the path. So doing a fast head count let them know if other girls were in trouble or missing. Each counselor went to opposite ends of the tents to work towards the middle.

When the empty tent was found, Carla ran to get help, met the nurse on the path to the showers, told her so she could go to check the bodies while Carla continued on to get the camp director. Camp director got the ranger and they all drove down there. At some point DE walked to see the bodies, then ran to another unit to alert the other counselors.

Can you imagine the trauma, chaos, etc. if they had allowed those little girls to go down the path to see poor,dead DM laying there, partially nude, bound, legs spread apart? One of the counselors, DE or SE became physically ill when she saw them, had to go away to vomit and take some deep breaths to recover.

Overall, the counselors managed it as well as could be expected. What more did you want them to do?

ETA: Many years ago, someone posted a photo on one of the Girl Scout Murder web sites of DM's body, uncovered as probably looked when Carla found her. It was a horrible shocking photo and it was obvious she was very likely deceased.

Also, why would it be more important to make sure others saw the bodies instead of checking to make sure the other campers were safe?

 

[Betty P]

Yeah nothing suspicious about a guy dieing of a heart attact at 35. Isaacs didnt care that Hart died, he had made his name and people act like he was such a good lawyer. Joe Pesci from My Cousin Vinny could have won that case. All circumstantial evidence and no physical evidence, it wasn't even close. The jury deliberated 4 hours but said they knew their decision in 5 minutes. Prosecution screwed this one up but then LE made sure Hart paid for the crime. The sad thing is no closure and no justice. I wonder if there was a really good suspect that was related to someone at the camp or former employee of the camp. The Magic whatever would not have wanted that out, they still accept no blame. And why did the Farmer and Milner family file a lawsuit and the Guse family not? Was money offered to not file suit? Or did they just not deem it justifiable? They should have filed a lawsuit against the Mayes County Sheriff's Department if they were so sure Gene Hart did it. Because they were the ones who he escaped from and hadn't caught in 4 years.

Why do you remain so adamant that a staffer at the camp was responsible for these deaths? Nearly all of the staff were interviewed multiple times and submitted saliva, blood, hair, fingerprint and other samples. Many submitted to poly exams. They've tried to stay involved and help with the investigation as much as possible.

I think we've pretty much debunked a lot of the conspiracy theories out on the dark net about this case, but if you have some more rumors you want to discuss, please feel free.

ETA: TOS says we can't discuss rumors, but bring up any other information, evidence, etc.

 

[Betty P]

And that's not suspicious?
I know many people who suffer or suffered from arterial sclerosis and can't imagine that any of them could work heavily out for over an hour. And with weights? That would be very painful and most likely suicide.

Only thing that whoever wanted him to remain silent was forcing him to work out.

That disease could actually point at that he was unable to run thrugh the woods and successfully escape or plant DM's shoes. He wasn't at perfect shape earlier, He had chest pain during his previous convictions. It must get much worse after years without medications.

Keep in mind, he died 3 years after the murders. His condition undoubtedly worsened in that time. No one forced him to lift weights. Recall, when he was captured at the medicine man's cabin after the murders, he had a set of weights in the cabin he was using. His choice.

When he died, he was running laps on the track in the prison yard. His choice. He was a fitness buff. Seems unlikely the exercise would have made a difference, perhaps he thought it would help, given his family history of heart disease and early death. Probably the best way for him to reduce stress in his life and live longer would be to not kidnap and rape women and commit burglaries. Ditto for excaping jail frequently and remaining on the run. Jail is not a healthy place and he would have been better off to avoid it.

 

[adeedra]

I am somewhat confused too of the reactions and actions right after spotting what appeared to be a dead child in the path.

I realize everyone is different and shock is probably a factor. Trying to put myself in that terrible position I think what I would do is probably just start screaming loudly about there being a dead or injured girl in the path and go grab other counselors to go back to the scene to see if they were injured or really dead or not.

And it very likely will cause panic, kids could start running everywhere, scared... maybe even right into the arms of murderer/s.

 

[huxley72]

Why do you remain so adamant that a staffer at the camp was responsible for these deaths? Nearly all of the staff were interviewed multiple times and submitted saliva, blood, hair, fingerprint and other samples. Many submitted to poly exams. They've tried to stay involved and help with the investigation as much as possible.

I think we've pretty much debunked a lot of the conspiracy theories out on the dark net about this case, but if you have some more rumors you want to discuss, please feel free.

ETA: TOS says we can't discuss rumors, but bring up any other information, evidence, etc.

I wrote that former staff or someone related to the staff could have been involved. Not the staff at the time, all I was saying in this post was it feels a little like a conspiracy coverup. Kinda like Oswald who was said to be the killer of Kennedy to have Oswald killed before we knew the truth. The same thing with Hart, it feels like foul play in his death and it left us with nothing. If he had an accomplice then did LE think they knew who it was? I just feel that the case was dropped after the trial and Hart's death. Just feels like no justice that is all.

 

[Betty P]

I wrote that former staff or someone related to the staff could have been involved. Not the staff at the time, all I was saying in this post was it feels a little like a conspiracy coverup. Kinda like Oswald who was said to be the killer of Kennedy to have Oswald killed before we knew the truth. The same thing with Hart, it feels like foul play in his death and it left us with nothing. If he had an accomplice then did LE think they knew who it was? I just feel that the case was dropped after the trial and Hart's death. Just feels like no justice that is all.

JMO, I think Pete Weaver had an idea of who Hart's accomplice(s) might have been, but realized it would be impossible to get enough info and assistance from the local community to take it to court. It was nearly impossible to finally get someone to give up GLH and he was a convicted rapist, burglar, prison escapee. Even today, some people talk about Hart as though he was a martyr, some noble guy. He was a sick, violent, woman-hating sociopath. But the myth continues for some.

Imagine how difficult it would have been to bring charges against a local who might not have had a criminal background. If, as some of us suspect, it was one of Hart's younger friends/partners in crime, they probably didn't yet have an arrest record.

I also think Weaver had to cut a deal with folks in the community in order to get info about Hart's whereabouts. If he went back on his word, it have made it impossible to do his job. As Farris said in one of his interviews, it's a very clannish community. Maybe he felt he had to settle for getting Hart off the street and hope nothing more happened.

I wonder how many other rapes and murders were committed in the area after that?

 

[adeedra]

Keep in mind, he died 3 years after the murders. His condition undoubtedly worsened in that time. No one forced him to lift weights. Recall, when he was captured at the medicine man's cabin after the murders, he had a set of weights in the cabin he was using. His choice.

I am keeping this in mind and that makes me suspicious. It would hurt much more with time.

Someone was "interacting" with that investigation from the beginning. Dogs died from "natural causes" as it was predicted and when it was predicted. Hart died as another curse/prophecy or however it's called.
So many coincidences.

When he died, he was running laps on the track in the prison yard. His choice. He was a fitness buff. Seems unlikely the exercise would have made a difference, perhaps he thought it would help, given his family history of heart disease and early death. Probably the best way for him to reduce stress in his life and live longer would be to not kidnap and rape women and commit burglaries. Ditto for excaping jail frequently and remaining on the run. Jail is not a healthy place and he would have been better off to avoid it.

Maybe his choice, maybe not his choice.

 

[Betty P]

Respectfully snipped by me

I found a couple at Newspapers.com, not much information, but dreadfully tragic information about the father of the boy who was arrested for shooting Jimmy Bryan. Both are from The Lawton Constitution:

Left one, dated August 4, 1977
Right one, dated September 3, 1977

Bringing this forward, because I think Jimmy Bryan's death deserves more attention. Recall his dad said he thought Jimmy and the guys he hung out with might have been involved in the GS killings and that Jimmy may have been killed for fear he would talk.

Wesley Duffield was charged with first degree murder in Jimmy's death. Duffield's father, Jesse Duffield, took LE to the location of Jimmy Bryan's body and was prepared to testify against his son when he committed suicide.

If you peruse the sex offender registry around the Locus Grove & Talequah area, you'll see other family members have had issues with the law.

Perhaps the brother of Wesley Duffield killed Jimmy or perhaps his father

http://www.homefacts.com/offender-d...7985C420520161205/Jessie-Darryl-Duffield.html


This brother would have been too young, I suppose

http://www.homefacts.com/offender-d...59684F822E10C19EC4/Lloyd-Eugene-Duffield.html

What do you think? Could Jimmy Bryan have been involved in the GS murders? Was he aware of them and killed for fear he would talk to LE?

I'm going to see if I can find more articles about Jimmy Bryan and the Duffield brothers.



I'll see what I can find out

Here's his Find A Grave site

https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=62336094

 

[Betty P]

I am keeping this in mind and that makes me suspicious. It would hurt much more with time.

Someone was "interacting" with that investigation from the beginning. Dogs died from "natural causes" as it was predicted and when it was predicted. Hart died as another curse/prophecy or however it's called.
So many coincidences.

Maybe his choice, maybe not his choice.

He had a choice about kidnapping and raping women. He had a choice about screwing up his parole by burglarizing homes while people slept nearby. He had a choice about escaping prison and living on the lam. All of those things probably aged him quite a lot, but that's the lifestyle he chose. He was a bold, aggressive guy if you read up on his criminal history. He loved taking big risks, like escaping prison, abducting women in the parking lot of a popular nightclub on a busy Friday night. He chose to break into people's homes and steal their valuables while they were at home, sleeping, instead of waiting until they were away at work during the day. He even broke into the home of a woman policeman to rob her. She awoke and pulled a gun on him. Many still wonder if he didn't have other plans that night, before she stopped him cold.

He was a dangerous, evil, cruel sociopath, not a folk hero.

 

[Betty P]

Wesley J Duffield was convicted of first degree murder in the death of Jimmy Bryan.

On June 17 of this year he was once again denied parole

http://www.tahlequahdailypress.com/...cle_5747a12a-cca1-5f07-b7a7-438ffea4bb2e.html

Here is his mug shot

http://mugshots.com/US-Counties/Oklahoma/Cherokee-County-OK/Wesley-J-Duffield.26242717.html

He was 22 or 23 at the time he killed Jimmy Bryan, shortly after the GS murders.

Jesse Duffield was also arrested as a material witness to the murder

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/11883711/thelawtonconstitutionokaugust41977/