OK OK - Jamison Family: Truck, IDs and Dog Found Abandoned 08 Oct 2009 - #12

[poppygirl]

I wonder if they were literally close together (like within a few feet) or were they found in the same area, but further apart. Respectfully, I just can't see three people freezing to death at the exact same time. If one froze to death, surely the others would go to get help or try at least. They were only three miles from their car which would have provided some shelter.

ETA - it also wasn't that cold. https://weatherspark.com/averages/30205/10/8/Eufaula-Alabama-United-States

There's a ton of discussion a while back on one of the Jamison threads re: hypothermia and the weather conditions when they disappeared. It really doesn't have to be that cold, certainly not freezing, to die from hypothermia.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I wonder if they were literally close together (like within a few feet) or were they found in the same area, but further apart. Respectfully, I just can't see three people freezing to death at the exact same time. If one froze to death, surely the others would go to get help or try at least. They were only three miles from their car which would have provided some shelter.

ETA - it also wasn't that cold. https://weatherspark.com/averages/30205/10/8/Eufaula-Alabama-United-States

Respectfully, hypothermia sets in quickly and with deadly results when people are not dressed for the conditions. The weather average you quoted was from Alabama not Oklahoma. I believe the temps were cold on that mountain at night. (Weatherunderground didn't have temps listed for that immediate area, but in McAlester, OK the low temp was 48 °F. http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KMLC/2009/10/9/DailyHistory.html IMO, it would have been a lot colder where they were found.)

 

[EdinburghLass]

Respectfully, hypothermia sets in quickly and with deadly results when people are not dressed for the conditions. The weather average you quoted was from Alabama not Oklahoma. I believe the temps were cold on that mountain at night. (Weatherunderground didn't have temps listed for that immediate area, but in McAlester, OK the low temp was 48 °F. http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KMLC/2009/10/9/DailyHistory.html IMO, it would have been a lot colder where they were found.)

Lol :banghead: that's what happens when you post after having a wine. Thanks for letting me know of my mistake. I feel like the class idiot now hehe.

I still think it would be odd for all three to die of hypothermia absolutely simultaneously. I can't wait for the findings to be released soon (hopefully!).

 

[EdinburghLass]

There's a ton of discussion a while back on one of the Jamison threads re: hypothermia and the weather conditions when they disappeared. It really doesn't have to be that cold, certainly not freezing, to die from hypothermia.

Sorry, I should have quoted and responded to you also. I am not denying they could have died from hypothermia or exposure. I am just debating how likely it would be for them all to have died of it at almost the exact same time if they were found very close together location wise. I just can't imagine one surviving parent for instance, giving in to death if Madyson was still alive. Wouldn't they take her and try to find help? I guess maybe they all wanted to stay together until the end. It's just all theories at this stage, I guess.

 

[Vox_Veritas_JT]

Or perhaps Madyson fell and was seriously injured or killed & that put them over the edge.

This is an interesting idea that had not occurred to me. If Madyson did fall then it could theoretically have led to one or both parents jumping after her or perhaps one or both could have attempted to scramble down after their daughter not realizing the fatal nature of the drop? This would be death by misadventure rather than suicide or murder. Perhaps Sherilynn took off after her daughter, ignoring the danger, and then Bobby followed them? It would neatly explain how the bodies ended up together at the bottom.

I do find the last picture of Madyson disturbing, I avoid it now. Something about the facial expression and the arms defensively folded that foretells something dark. Its nothing on the Regina Kay Walters photo though thank God, once seen (sadly) never forgotten.

Thanks for the warm welcome given to me earlier in the thread by the way! I had lurked for some time already but it was reading Lost Girls: An American Unsolved Mystery that got me around to posting.

 

[Lolacat]

I havent posted much in this thread but I was just wondering- does anyone know why its taking so long for confirmation about whether the bodies found belong to the Jamesons or not? Its been approx 6 months now- surely it cant take that long to compare DNA? any thoughts?

 

[ZooSleuth]

I havent posted much in this thread but I was just wondering- does anyone know why its taking so long for confirmation about whether the bodies found belong to the Jamesons or not? Its been approx 6 months now- surely it cant take that long to compare DNA? any thoughts?

It will probably take more like 9-12 months. It has been discussed previously in this thread and it is likely due to the backlog of cases with the Oklahoma ME office.

 

[Mr. Noatak]

My opinions only, no facts here:

As Joan Rivers says in her comedy routines: "can we talk?".

DNA from the McStay family remains was released within ten days of the discovery of their grave-sites. This does not even account for the evidence-gathering and shipment timeline delays, before the laboratory received the samples to analyze. There are oodles of very competent private DNA labs the Jamison family remains could have been submitted to, probably at lower cost and with very quick turnaround times. See http://abc7.com/archive/9336894/ to get the full flavor of current DNA capabilities from California State labs (where there is far more crime than Oklahoma ever dreamed of).

My personal interpretation is that the authorities know the DNA results, but are delaying reporting them for investigative purposes.

 

[little726]

My opinions only, no facts here:

As Joan Rivers says in her comedy routines: "can we talk?".

DNA from the McStay family remains was released within ten days of the discovery of their grave-sites. This does not even account for the evidence-gathering and shipment timeline delays, before the laboratory received the samples to analyze. There are oodles of very competent private DNA labs the Jamison family remains could have been submitted to, probably at lower cost and with very quick turnaround times. See http://abc7.com/archive/9336894/ to get the full flavor of current DNA capabilities from California State labs (where there is far more crime than Oklahoma ever dreamed of).

My personal interpretation is that the authorities know the DNA results, but are delaying reporting them for investigative purposes.

Mr.Noatak, I sure hope they are investigating what happened to the Jamison family.

 

[salgtrn]

Agreed. I personally believe they have known for quite some time and are not releasing it. I have thought of many different scenarios for reasons why they have not released it though!

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

I still think it would be odd for all three to die of hypothermia absolutely simultaneously.

Why would it have to be absolutely simultaneously? They probably can't tell at this point whether they died within the same 2 minutes or the same 2 months.

Plausible scenario (for hypothermia):

They are lost, tired, upset, hungry, not warmly dressed. They have sweated from walking and their clothes are damp. They sit down to rest and regroup and try to think what to do next. But contact with the ground leaches away more of their body heat, speeding up the process of hypothermia, leading to confusion, significant loss of coordination, torpor, and eventually death. Animals pull at the bodies over time, and shift them away from each other, so they are not in the position they died in, e.g., huddled together.

That said, though I used to be a proponent of the getting lost/succumbing to hypothermia theory, ever since I learned their bodies were all found face down with a hole in at least one of the skulls, my suspicion of foul play has gone up significantly. (That is, assuming the description of their bodies is accurate.)

 

[Grammar]

I have never been able to buy into the lost/hypothermia idea. First off, people who take their dogs with them and let them ride inside the truck do not leave the dog to slowly die of starvation and thirst inside the truck . They'd have killed the dog too. Secondly, it makes no sense for them to travel so far on foot before doing the deed. Third, people of different sizes and weights would succumb to hypothermia at different times. If they were found face down, and I see no reason for the man who found them to lie, it sounds like they were executed. It's bad enough to kill adults but to kill a child is beyond comprehensible to me.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

The ME's office in Oklahoma is backlogged to the nth degree. I can provide article after article done on the situation in the past few years and it has not improved much. There is no way they have the results and are "sitting on them" for investigative purposes. They don't have ANY results.

This was from last year:

Families of dead suffer as backlog at state Medical Examiner's Office tops 1,300 cases

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crim...cle_b9bab9d0-6723-5325-bea9-ff710fb8e0a2.html

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Hypothermia would have struck the child first and they would not have left her behind to look for a way out. They would have gone together and continued on until it was impossible to go any farther. It is even possible the two adults tried to huddle together and wait it out until morning, but didn't make it through the night. None of them weighed enough to sustain them for long not having proper clothing, gear, or the ability to build a fire.

The dog left in the vehicle tells me they did not intend on being gone long and points to them getting lost on a hike around the area. It isn't difficult to become disoriented in the woods and walk the wrong way or even in circles especially under stressful circumstances such as impending darkness or having a child in dire straits.

If someone was going to murder the family, they would have done it near the truck. The money would not have been left behind and the dog would have been turned loose. There is nothing pointing to foul play in this scenario, imo.

Murder/suicide without a weapon isn't logical.

What else is there?

 

[salgtrn]

The ME's office in Oklahoma is backlogged to the nth degree. I can provide article after article done on the situation in the past few years and it has not improved much. There is no way they have the results and are "sitting on them" for investigative purposes. They don't have ANY results.

This was from last year:

Families of dead suffer as backlog at state Medical Examiner's Office tops 1,300 cases

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crim...cle_b9bab9d0-6723-5325-bea9-ff710fb8e0a2.html[/QUO

Ok, I'm confused. I guess I misunderstood, but I thought they were sending the remains to Texas and they were helping to catch up some of the OSME's autopsies etc?

 

[ZooSleuth]

The ME's office in Oklahoma is backlogged to the nth degree. I can provide article after article done on the situation in the past few years and it has not improved much. There is no way they have the results and are "sitting on them" for investigative purposes. They don't have ANY results.

This was from last year:

Families of dead suffer as backlog at state Medical Examiner's Office tops 1,300 cases

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crim...cle_b9bab9d0-6723-5325-bea9-ff710fb8e0a2.html

Ok, I'm confused. I guess I misunderstood, but I thought they were sending the remains to Texas and they were helping to catch up some of the OSME's autopsies etc?

According to OkieGranny, the Texas lab helps out with backlogged cases from all over that part of country, so they have a lengthy waiting list themselves. I bet just the transportation there and back adds months.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - OK OK - Jamison Family: Truck, IDs and Dog Found Abandoned 08 Oct 2009 - #12

 

[poppygirl]

Hypothermia would have struck the child first and they would not have left her behind to look for a way out. They would have gone together and continued on until it was impossible to go any farther. It is even possible the two adults tried to huddle together and wait it out until morning, but didn't make it through the night. None of them weighed enough to sustain them for long not having proper clothing, gear, or the ability to build a fire.

The dog left in the vehicle tells me they did not intend on being gone long and points to them getting lost on a hike around the area. It isn't difficult to become disoriented in the woods and walk the wrong way or even in circles especially under stressful circumstances such as impending darkness or having a child in dire straits.

If someone was going to murder the family, they would have done it near the truck. The money would not have been left behind and the dog would have been turned loose. There is nothing pointing to foul play in this scenario, imo.

Murder/suicide without a weapon isn't logical.

What else is there?

I agree on your hypothermia reasoning.

True murder/suicide without a weapon isn't logical...but...we don't know for sure that they didn't find a weapon. They may have and just haven't released that info yet. Sherilynn's gun was never found.

 

[ZooSleuth]

I agree on your hypothermia reasoning.

True murder/suicide without a weapon isn't logical...but...we don't know for sure that they didn't find a weapon. They may have and just haven't released that info yet. Sherilynn's gun was never found.

Was her gun seen in the CCTV footage of them packing the car? Or might it have been stolen from her prior to the disappearance? Some people just chalk it up as a loss, without filing a police report.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

I have never been able to buy into the lost/hypothermia idea. First off, people who take their dogs with them and let them ride inside the truck do not leave the dog to slowly die of starvation and thirst inside the truck .

Hence, "lost."

They'd have killed the dog too. Secondly, it makes no sense for them to travel so far on foot before doing the deed.

Not understanding this. Have you switched from talking about lost/hypothermia to murder or murder/suicide...? Are you saying the killer would have killed the dog, or the Jamisons would have killed the dog (murder/suicide)? If they were murdered, how do we know that they did travel on foot? I think they were probably murdered, and I think (alive or dead) they were probably taken to the body site via some kind of vehicle.

Third, people of different sizes and weights would succumb to hypothermia at different times.

Times, yes. But all of them could have succumbed the same night, if the temperature/contributing factors were dangerous enough for one of them to do so.

Also, supposing one of them died of hypothermia before the others. Maybe they wouldn't want to leave their loved one(s), especially if already lost and without hope. That person or persons may have stayed there in grief and shock until they died too, later.

No one is claiming 3 hypothermia deaths would happen at the exact same time.

 

[Dallen]

I have never been able to buy into the lost/hypothermia idea. First off, people who take their dogs with them and let them ride inside the truck do not leave the dog to slowly die of starvation and thirst inside the truck . They'd have killed the dog too. Secondly, it makes no sense for them to travel so far on foot before doing the deed. Third, people of different sizes and weights would succumb to hypothermia at different times. If they were found face down, and I see no reason for the man who found them to lie, it sounds like they were executed. It's bad enough to kill adults but to kill a child is beyond comprehensible to me.

I'm a little confused about this and the points you are trying to make. I agree people don't take their dogs with them to starve to death, but that would support the lost/hypothermia speculation. As well as how far from the vehicle they were found. And by the deed, if you are talking about a third party, I disagree. It makes sense to me for the sole purpose of buying time to cover their tracks as the terrain made it very difficult to find them. Look how long it took for the family to be found (given this is them). I definitely agree it takes a sick individual to kill a child. Incomprehensible.